108 réponses à ce sujet

[Krazy Solo]

As the title says...

What is the weakest non-prestige class?  We all played the strongest potential classes how about the weakest?

I have always been fascinated by weak class choices.  Seems like I find em easier to play.  Who knows.

In my honest opinion I think the Ranger is pretty weak compared to pass versions of it.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

Define weak.

[Weiser_Cain]

Bard

[Elhanan]

For myself, it is the Bard; a class based more on CHA than I prefer. Other than taking the class for needed prereqs, I cannot recall playing one in NWN1, esp as a the major class.

In second place is the Barbarian; inclusive Rage class feature can actually cause death if it fades during low hp.

I define weak as the class design.

[Shadooow]

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.

Bard is in my opinion one of the strongest actually, str based with rdd he is able to get awesome AC, devastating DC, has all needed boosts and anything he doesnt have can (ab)use via UMD (dont forget that unless you use my unofficial patch 90% scrolls has Bard class on them so they dont need to roll UMD when cast at all). The bard song in conjuction with curse song is just imbalanced.

[Kail Pendragon]

And you need to define the environment too. What is strong in low magic become weak in high magic and viceversa.

I don't wanna sound snarky, but the question, as it stands, is pretty much pointless. Especially in a game which grants you 3 class slots and lets you mix and match the best features of each. Basically any class can be put to good use. Even PDK

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.

Huh? How does a ranger have any lower AB/AC than a fighter?  Even a straight ranger can take heavy armor as a feat. Compared to a fighter a Ranger with bane gets +2 AB against all FE, which puts it ahead of the fighter.

Ranger is an awesome class. Fights as good as a fighter and gets double the skill points, has access to many more class skills, gets a nice pet, gets spells...

If your ranger has to buy a Wis score to cast spells, than probably his melee ability related score will be lower, hence vs non favored enemies will have a lower AB or he will have lower scores elsewhere. This is just a general consideration and I'm not endorsing the position that Ranger is a weak class.

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

That is more a testament to the Rangers flexibility. Though I would never set Wis over 12 unless the Wis benefited a second class (like Monk), and most of the time my Rangers have 8 Wis.

I often go for Wis 14 as a part of all 14 for starting abilities but 8 for Cha with Rangers. The spells could definitely be better but IMO they are worth the investment (and the extra Wis means a better will save too). But we are digressing.

[HipMaestro]

Does the OP mean "pure" class?  Dunno.  But if for multiclass all them them seem to have their very strong assets and few of the non-prestige strengths overlap all that much.

But if I were to interpret "weak" as meaning "limiting" then it would be any class that severely limits how you can build around it.  The alignment restrictions are severe enough for Paladin that I seldom use it unless it is some sort of dump for feats or class-specific festures.  I find it is just about impossible to keep leveling in that class in an environment that causes extreme shifts according to one's actions. 

Druid is another alignment-choked class in many environments.  Unless you get the levels you want in early before encountering shift-situations, you must scurry to find a way to re-align to take more levels. 

The definition of alignment shift-worthy actions of the designer often vastly differs from my own so it can be annoying to build any continuity with that hanging over one's head. On servers that provide an alignment manager, of course, it is not an issue so there are no such limitations.

At any rate, that is about the only debilitating aspect I can imagine for any of the non-prestige classes as a whole.

I've done effective powergaming with both bard and ranger classes so I don't consider either of those any weaker than the others.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:06 .

[Shadooow]

Lowlander wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.

Huh? How does a ranger have any lower AB/AC than a fighter?  Even a straight ranger can take heavy armor as a feat. Compared to a fighter a Ranger with bane gets +2 AB against all FE, which puts it ahead of the fighter.

Ranger is an awesome class. Fights as good as a fighter and gets double the skill points, has access to many more class skills, gets a nice pet, gets spells...

Well I count with multiclass. Fighter can easily multiclass WM and therefore gets +7ab, the is no reason to take so much fighter we already discussed it in multiclass thread. The ranger itself provides no ab until lvl 21 only damage. Also ranger is mostly using dual-wield, two handler rangers looks kinda stupid . + He has no AC if he wants to go str based with dual wield. I also havent seen any good dex based ranger build.

WM lvl 28 -> +7ab
Bard lvl 16 -> +2song,+2warcry,+5 from curse song ac decrease.
Paladin lvl 15 -> +8ab
Cleric lvl 16 -> 10+ab depends on BAB the lower the better, with weapon he often reach cap
Ranger 8/10 -> +1ab
Ranger lvl 21 -> 3ab (dont forget at -2dual wield penalty)
Druid lvl 1 -> 2ab in nature
Barbarian -> 0ab unless rage is rescripted in that case its +3ab (+4 mighty)
AA lvl 29 -> +15ab

Maybe in low magic/lvl environment, the ranger might be usefull for rogues to get free dual-wield and extra attack with decent BAB (played one like this at 3T), I also have seen one ranger at pvp server Bastions of War, but his AB was horrible it was an archer that aimed for non-ac and mainly PM builds, he couldnt hit anyone else (+4weapons, +7armor environment -> in this environent paladin, clerics, bards get even another +1ab due to GMW) and with no AC he could do only one thing - run shoot, annoying but not powerfull.

Compare any ranger build on ranged weapon with any AA or any Zen cleric. The difference there is extremely huge.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .

[Elhanan]

Ranger is NOT taken primarily for A/TWF by myself; rarely even use it as I prefer Heavy armor over ligher armored builds. It may be considered by some to be front loaded for this feature, but when m/c the Bard and Barbarian have benefits, too.

AA is the best archer, IMO. But I personally dislike playing Elves mainly due to their faster moving feature; keep stepping on traps before becoming revealed. And my Zen archer can hit targets all day long, but does little dmg to them when compared to a Ranger powered punch. And the Ranger has full BAB, so a STR heavy armored archer makes up some slack much like a STR AA design.

At 20th lvl, a Ranger gets +5 dmg to any of his chosen FE; Cat's Grace for a small AB boost. Add BoE at 21st for +2 AB/ +2d6 dmg boost.

While Ranger may not m/c as well as some other classes is a salute to the idea that the Ranger class does take investment to get a lot from it. Even the A/TWF feature that is mentioned is the weakest starting fighting technique compared to 2H or S&S; nice feature in high lvls, but no so much when starting.

Comparing Ranger to m/c designs is rather unfair, too. That said, Ranger builds are terrific while remaining the major class: full BAB, spell boosts, FE bonuses, a pet; even a bonus to Stealth is one wishes to play that way.

OTOH, the Barbarian could perish if Rage fades, and the Bard gets to sing.

Modifié par Elhanan, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:25 .

[Shadooow]

Lowlander wrote...

Shadow Seriously?

Not sure where you are coming up with +8 ab for Paladin. But I guess it some highly situational occasional use case like the Bard:

War Cry. A spell that lasts a few rounds, that you can cast once?? That also has a saving throw that negates.

Bard level 16 Curse song requires 30 perform. Do you really think you can pull that off at level 16?

You also seem to forget that you have -4 BAB vs fighter classes like the ranger.

As a charisma based class you will also be down on your AB stat (Str/Dex).

End result is more like one fight, when your enemy fails saves, you will be one or two AB ahead. The rest of the time you will be behind.

I notice you didn't mention Fighter either, which is what I asked...

Yes absolutely seriously I skipped these things willingly as they doesnt seem relevant to me, you can have full BAB with any of those classes above and perform is no problem to get especially when it counts charisma/skill bonuses into it. And there is no save vs curse song.

Ok, imagine an environment where minumum AB to have playable char is 62. And now show me which ranger gets past to it. Maybe half-orc, str-based, two handler rdd/ranger which is compared to anything else just fail. If its pvp, then ranger may be useable for csers who doesnt need ab. But if its pvm where majority of NPC ha true seeing then the ranger is just unusable. In this environment the bards get superior to everything, they can cap dodge ac by themselves, their ab isnt so good but with curse song they hit even better than fighter.

Personally dont think there is point to compare these classes in low lvl environment that is in SP. In SP you can play anything as those modules are designed to be completed with anything (class specific are pointless to mention).

Played like 5 servers with the environment I described. PvM, real start at lvl 40 where are the best dungeons.

[Kail Pendragon]

It's pretty evident that without defining "weak" and the environment in which this definition of weak is to be examined, we end up with "my dad kicks your dad's arse" arguments of little validity.

Let's be serious: both bard and ranger can be used for effective bard/ranger mostly builds and if you are a little into character building you know it. Let's leave skewed comparisons aside, fellas.

[Elhanan]

@ ShaDoOoW - while I dislike specifics such as 62 AB, I do play a Dwarven Rgr 24/ Rog 10/ Ftr 6 that does rather well at range or melee. It would be easy enough to revamp this design to gain full BAB, and place all the Rog lvls during Epic play. Again, I prefer to use a STR heavy armor archer with Mighty effect, but I am fairly certain the more experienced builders could whip up something in another design if they wished.

Currently a few highlighted features are Armor Skin, five chosen FE, BoE, Imp Evasion, EDR 1-3, EWS: Longbow and Warhammer, +5d6 SA, full Search, Tumble, UMD, Animal Empathy, Discipline, and Lore skills cause I am a greedy little Dwarf. While it may not be optimized, it ain't shabby at all, and does triple digit dmg at range or melee.

[HipMaestro]

BoE is one the best epic combat feats in the game IMO, like EWF & EWS all rolled into a single feat and even better with lots of FEs.  Unfortunately, I have seldom taken ranger into epic levels to experience how uber FE levels perform in practice.   Well worth considering especially with a Dexpecker build.

Ranger is the "skilled" version of a fighter with a pet... just without the feat flexibility.  And no bleedin' alignment tag so that me likes.

[Shadooow]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

It's pretty evident that without defining "weak" and the environment in which this definition of weak is to be examined, we end up with "my dad kicks your dad's arse" arguments of little validity.

Let's be serious: both bard and ranger can be used for effective bard/ranger mostly builds and if you are a little into character building you know it. Let's leave skewed comparisons aside, fellas.

Ok, so again and better.

In lvl 1-20 environment I think that all classes are somewhat balanced. Weakest class there is indeed bard because his low hitpoints and slow spell/offensive progression.

At epic environment due to the Lasting Inspiration and multiclassing the bard is IMO the strongest class from all. Also in this environment barbarian is weakest because his rage dont give any benefits. Second weakest is ranger imo.

Its not the coincidence that most of these lvl 40 based PWs are boosting ranger's AB or AC via custom feats or items. Both Dungeon Eternal X and Heart of Winter doing this, also Arkhalia (czech-only server where I play) and The Three Towns (there he can craft arrows and rest in wilderness without being ambushed).

Druid itself is not so powerfull too, no ab spells, poor dmg spells, weak summons, xp penalty for them and no resurrection so he cant make proper "healer".  But at low lvl environment due to summons he is very safe class for PvM and in high lvl environment the dragon shape makes him quite powerfull.

So what now Lowlander, do you agree with this?

[Elhanan]

@ShaDoOoW - I have not played on that many PW's, but the boosting for Rangers I have seen is for spells and Companions, as things are fine on the fields of combat. My guess is that you are seeing AB boosting due to the inflated AB standards and rules mentioned earlier on those worlds; not because of the vanilla game.

@ Lowlander - while you may not like Epic play does not equate it to sillyness, being off the rails, or over the top. For one stating no comment, you appear to make several. But it is OK, as your siding with me on Rangers was getting me worried; being viewed as a possible sign of the apocalypse....

Modifié par Elhanan, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...
...and think NWN turns a corner toward sillyness in epic levels.

Dude, it's not just NWN to "turn a corner toward sillyness" as you put it, in fact PnP is no better to say the least.

As a side note lvl 20 cap with selected PRC features (I'm thinking mostly some cool PrCs) would be a great environment where to play.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:56 .

[Shadooow]

Lowlander wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

At epic environment due to the Lasting Inspiration and multiclassing the bard is IMO the strongest class from all. Also in this environment barbarian is weakest because his rage dont give any benefits. Second weakest is ranger imo.

I just want to know, so I will raise it the third time.  Why do you consider Rangers weaker than fighters? You keep saying Rangers are so weak, but never a peep about fighters even when I ask. So what spares fighters from your list of weaklings?

Because fighters are excellent for multiclassing. Sure pure fighter is useless but there is no point to make pure fighter - I think Kail explained this precisely in the "multiclass" thread.

From multiclassing perspective, 1-6fighter levels are usefull to all builds. Even more in non-epic environment because ranger there wont give you free epic feat (which is bug actually, it should grant only FE) and because you cant afford to spend too many levels on multiclass. If there would be a server that would have max lvl of 20 and then you could keep this character for new challenges, I would take 1-2 levels of fighter for pure wizard or cleric. If you could get fourth class, why wouldnt you take fighter?

@ShaDoOoW - I have not played on that many PW's, but the boosting for
Rangers I have seen is for spells and Companions, as things are fine on
the fields of combat. My guess is that you are seeing AB boosting due to
the inflated AB standards and rules mentioned earlier on those worlds;
not because of the vanilla game.

Yes that makes sense. But that doesnt mean im wrong. The ranger just still cant reach the required AB/AC of some servers, while other classes can.

I just dont know even the barbarian can be combined with RDD or PM to get decent melee or tank but I just cant see this possibility for ranger. Both combinations doesnt seem viable to me.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 31 juillet 2011 - 10:09 .