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Weakest Non Prestige class?


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#76
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ShaDoOoW wrote...
Ok so again.
thats with 10base rank (max at lvl 20) and 12base intelligence and 8base dex:


Ok, so you changed to a more reasonable gear set now. Are you resting after each trap to recharge your ioun stones. Only one active at a time and one or two uses/day.

Your example is still ridiculous. You have maxed out 3 cross class skills.  Even as a rogue with the most skill points in the game, I loathe to max even 1 cross class skill.

So you are skipping some Hide, Move Silent, Perform, Taunt, UMD, Tumble, Spellcraft, Concentration to max 3 cross class skills?? Doubtful in the extreme.

Modifié par Lowlander, 03 août 2011 - 06:06 .


#77
Elhanan

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ShaDoOoW wrote...


Elhanan wrote...
 
Only the Rogue may Disable Traps with 35+ DC, and are the only base class
with the only synergetic skill set with Disable Trap and Set Trap for +2
to both skills when ranks are 5 or greater.


But anyone can recover trap, the DC is +10, but as already stated, bards have no problem with higher DC. Same with trickery clerics who can with one level of Assassin get higher skills than rogue ever could have.

The only rogue's advantage is that he is the only class that can see traps with search DC of 36 and more. But such traps can be seen only in very specific environment. As I already said, in most modules traps are seen by anyone unless its rogue-specific module (and then it doesnt matter).


From the Wiki offered for general clarity:

Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater. With 5 or more ranks in the set trap skill a character gets a +2 synergy bonus on disable trap checks.


[*]The official description has an error. Any class can disarm a DC 35 trap. Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC greater than 35.

[*]The special prohibition involving rogues only applies to disarming a trap. Any class can successfully examine, flag, or recover any trap, provided the skill check is passed.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 07:54 .


#78
Elhanan

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Xardex wrote...

Secondary? Why? Spells are a very core part of a class if it has them. Would you say wizards entire spellbook is "secondary"? Buffs may be temporary but favored enemy, while passive, is conditional, and not always there when needed. Difference is buffs can be cast when you need them, but favored enemies cant be changed.

And you're missing my point about following the nose. Of course the ranger can go where-ever he wants to. Favored enemies? Good for the ranger. No favored enemies? Not nearly as powerful. Every ranger prefers to fight his favored enemies IC and OOC. What makes it stupid is that its not dynamic. (IC) Paladin can hate rogues, but change his mind through roleplay. Ranger makes the decision of races he likes to kill at levelup and cant roleplay them to other races. (OOC) you will want to fight enemies you can defeat easier. If you don't, you are playing in a module with no death penalty or have otherwise lost 'your game.'

Remember that this is my opinion and I have played so long that you won't be able to change it. The only place where rangers really shine is PvP, and even there only if you go pure.


No offense, but that final bit is poppycock; pure subjective bias, and not at all factual.

You say Rangers only shine in PvP and against FE. My own PW Ranger disproves that entirely. Just because you cannot see that a Ranger is formidable does not make it so. If your own experience illustrates your findings, I suggest you try another PW.

Not trying to change your opinion; just trying to help insure that it ain't contagious.

And yes; secondary. Being able to watch opposing casters begin their spell barrage with Dispels, Breaches, and Mords makes me smile a lot, as I am able to walk freely w/o buffs; unlike the major casters. The spells can help, but are not top priority. I use them to enhance the design and situation; do not plan on it as a major cornerstone.

And in RP, almost anything is viable; no need for a defense.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 08:03 .


#79
Shadooow

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Elhanan wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...


Elhanan wrote...
 
Only the Rogue may Disable Traps with 35+ DC, and are the only base class
with the only synergetic skill set with Disable Trap and Set Trap for +2
to both skills when ranks are 5 or greater.


But anyone can recover trap, the DC is +10, but as already stated, bards have no problem with higher DC. Same with trickery clerics who can with one level of Assassin get higher skills than rogue ever could have.

The only rogue's advantage is that he is the only class that can see traps with search DC of 36 and more. But such traps can be seen only in very specific environment. As I already said, in most modules traps are seen by anyone unless its rogue-specific module (and then it doesnt matter).


From the Wiki offered for general clarity:

Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater. With 5 or more ranks in the set trap skill a character gets a +2 synergy bonus on disable trap checks.


[*]The official description has an error. Any class can disarm a DC 35 trap. Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC greater than 35.

[*]The special prohibition involving rogues only applies to disarming a trap. Any class can successfully examine, flag, or recover any trap, provided the skill check is passed.

Yes thank you that you repeated what I have just said.:wizard:

#80
Elhanan

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Didn't know that only Rogues could see DC 36+ traps; must make it difficult to recover 'em....

#81
bututoy

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ShaDoOoW wrote...

Ranger and Barbarian. In high lvl environment they lacks good AB/AC. While ranger has awesome damage, he just cant get any survivable AC. Barbarian is even worse in such environment.


Huh? How does a ranger have any lower AB/AC than a fighter?  Even a straight ranger can take heavy armor as a feat. Compared to a fighter a Ranger with bane gets +2 AB against all FE, which puts it ahead of the fighter.

Ranger is an awesome class. Fights as good as a fighter and gets double the skill points, has access to many more class skills, gets a nice pet, gets spells...
Well I count with multiclass. Fighter can easily multiclass WM and therefore gets +7ab, the is no reason to take so much fighter we already discussed it in multiclass thread. The ranger itself provides no ab until lvl 21 only damage. Also ranger is mostly using dual-wield, two handler rangers looks kinda stupid :). + He has no AC if he wants to go str based with dual wield. I also havent seen any good dex based ranger build.

WM lvl 28 -> +7ab
Bard lvl 16 -> +2song,+2warcry,+5 from curse song ac decrease.
Paladin lvl 15 -> +8ab
Cleric lvl 16 -> 10+ab depends on BAB the lower the better, with weapon he often reach cap
Ranger 8/10 -> +1ab
Ranger lvl 21 -> 3ab (dont forget at -2dual wield penalty)
Druid lvl 1 -> 2ab in nature
Barbarian -> 0ab unless rage is rescripted in that case its +3ab (+4 mighty)
AA lvl 29 -> +15ab

Maybe in low magic/lvl environment, the ranger might be usefull for rogues to get free dual-wield and extra attack with decent BAB (played one like this at 3T), I also have seen one ranger at pvp server Bastions of War, but his AB was horrible it was an archer that aimed for non-ac and mainly PM builds, he couldnt hit anyone else (+4weapons, +7armor environment -> in this environent paladin, clerics, bards get even another +1ab due to GMW) and with no AC he could do only one thing - run shoot, annoying but not powerfull.

Compare any ranger build on ranged weapon with any AA or any Zen cleric. The difference there is extremely huge.


How the hell did the WM lvl 28 get +7AB?!
WM only gets Superior Weapon Focus on lvls 5, 10, 13, 16. So without feats, that's +4ab.

Ranger, which should be dex based (damage will be taken care of @ lvl 28: STR +2, FE +6, BoE +2d6)

If elf dex is 18                           = +1 ab
Cat's Grace with W Finesse = +1
Aid                                              = +1
Bane                                          = +2
Dual wield penalty                  = -2

So without feats, ranger has +3 ab plus 2 extra attacks per round compared to WM. How can it be the weakest?

For ranger AC, capitalize on parry. lvl parry @ 28 = 31 points
                                                              dex mod @ 26 = 8
                                                               skill focus       = 3
                                                           epic skill focus = 10
                                                           TOTAL                = 51 points of parry
Rangers can parry 7 attacks per round due to dual wield. I survived Mephistopheles on parry.

this is without enchanted equipments. Imagine if there are magic armor and weapons.

:blush:

Modifié par bututoy, 06 août 2011 - 07:58 .


#82
Shadooow

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:Oseriously?

#83
Elhanan

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bututoy wrote...

How the .... did the WM lvl 28 get +7AB?! ....


As I understand. the AB from 28th lvl WM with SWF is +7, but this is also 38th lvl character.

A 38th lvl pure Ranger has +8 FE bonuses.

The WM gets bonuses To Hit with a specific melee weapon.

The Ranger gets FE bonuses to Damage, Spot, Listen, and Taunt using any weapon including ranged. This also effects creatures Immune to Crits.

#84
WebShaman

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(IC) Paladin can hate rogues, but change his mind through roleplay. Ranger makes the decision of races he likes to kill at levelup and cant roleplay them to other races.


This is plainly ridiculous! The Ranger starts out with a FAVORED RACE. This means that the Ranger has spent serious time studying that Race, both weakness and strengths, etc! As the Ranger levels up (re: gains EXPERIENCE!), she gets more FEs...to be selected AT THAT TIME! What more of a RP prop ingame do you want!!???

As for those that she already has, what, do you want that she all of a "sudden" just loses all the time she has invested in learning about a FE? She gets "magical amnesia" or somesuch? Just so she can "replace" it with another? This is not the Matrix here!

That has absolutely nothing to do with RP here!

The Ranger has been studying, combating, etc this new FE the whole time, and now has reached a point where it has become an FE.

The Ranger FEs are perhaps one of the best RP type of special abilites in the game IMHO. They can be tailored according to how the character progress, instead of getting everything at once, front loaded, so to speak. This allows for a character whose abilities are tailored by the experiences that it has had.

So, RP.

Seriously, what some will try to "squeek under" the RP label is just unbelievable!

Oh yeah, back to the topic - Barbarian is clearly the weakest non-prestige class.

Modifié par WebShaman, 06 août 2011 - 12:03 .


#85
Shia Luck

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bututoy wrote...

For ranger AC, capitalize on parry. lvl parry @ 28 = 31 points
                                                              dex mod @ 26 = 8
                                                               skill focus       = 3
                                                           epic skill focus = 10
                                                           TOTAL                = 51 points of parry
Rangers can parry 7 attacks per round due to dual wield. I survived Mephistopheles on parry.

this is without enchanted equipments. Imagine if there are magic armor and weapons.

:blush:


Sorry, but they cannot. Max number of parries per round is 3 , one per flurry. I'd link you to the big parry discussion but as the legacy boards are still down... *sigh*

As for the topic, barbarian is most likely to be in an environment where their class features are not that helpful. Only in lower magic worlds do they shine, soooo

Have fun :)

#86
Elhanan

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@bututoy - I believe the seven you are seeing is the Attack series for a possibly Hasted 28th lvl Ranger that is DW (ie; base 4 attacks; add 1 for off-hand; add 1 for Imp TWF; add 1 for any Haste), But only three incoming attacks will be Parried (ie; one per flurry max). It looks better on manual paper than it really is.

However, with all thse folks illustrating the weakness of Parry, even a Ranger build can pull it off for a major win (ie; not the weakest class)!!!

Posted Image

Modifié par Elhanan, 06 août 2011 - 08:34 .


#87
Krazy Solo

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Wowzer, must appologize to all who posted in the thread... I completely forgot to check back in.

From what I've read while glimpsing through all the long winded discusion, I've notice alot of debate over Rangers.

In all fairness I don't view Rangers weak perse, but specialized in what they do. What a ranger brings to the table is not a power gaming class, but a Roleplaying masterpiece. The Ranger learns to adapt to its surrounding, learning to despise a select group of enemies. Over time the Ranger becomes a scourage of those enemies.

Weak is a lose term... What I was aiming for was which class being hindered by being pure. It is obvious the Fighter comes to the mind. The class has nothing to gain beyond pre-epic besides its EWS. I should have been more clear on my context. The environment for myself is exclusive to OC, SoU, and HotU... Yet I don't mind the discusions involving other environment types. After all my main goal for this thread to gain knowledge that i didn't have before.

#88
Gregor Wyrmbane

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Krazy Solo wrote...

...What I was aiming for was which class being hindered by being pure. It is obvious the Fighter comes to the mind. The class has nothing to gain beyond pre-epic besides its EWS.


There is another perk to the fighter class post-epic. They continue to get a bonus feat every other level. 

#89
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Krazy Solo wrote...
Weak is a lose term... What I was aiming for was which class being hindered by being pure. It is obvious the Fighter comes to the mind. The class has nothing to gain beyond pre-epic besides its EWS. I should have been more clear on my context. The environment for myself is exclusive to OC, SoU, and HotU... Yet I don't mind the discusions involving other environment types. After all my main goal for this thread to gain knowledge that i didn't have before.


In that context. Barbarians. The main benefit is Rage-Strength. In HotU you will cap strength with items easily, meaning you will never want to use rage. But as everyone likes to point out, you could complete them all with a pure Barbarian if you want to. 

Since any class can make it through it comes down to fun...

Rangers actually benefit fairly well from being pure. Though like almost every class, they benefit from some multiclass.

I finished HotU recently with Ranger 21/Fighter4/Rogue3. FEs covered most of the module and Bane of Enemies is very powerful. Throw in big strength, and EWS and using a Greatsword and consistent damage was high, great fun. Plus consistent stealth is great for picking how to start battles.

#90
bututoy

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ShaDoOoW wrote...

:Oseriously?


Sorry, I think I wrote something causing confusion.

I survived M with enchanted items.

The computation I made is without enchantments.

:pinched:

About the parry, yes it's 1st, 3rd, 5th only. My bad.
Just wondering, if you're parrying 2 enemies, how does that compute?

Modifié par bututoy, 07 août 2011 - 05:45 .


#91
Elhanan

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As far as I am aware, Parry is limited to three Parry attempts per rnd; get confirmation.

#92
WebShaman

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Elhanan is right - max of 3 (THREE) parries per round, one per flurry (as Shia pointed out), REGARDLESS of the amount of enemies.

See the NWN Wiki - http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Parry

Though it does not specifically state how it works against multiple enemies, it does state how the mechanics work. And they do not change for multiple enemies. Meaning Parry becomes less and less effective against more and more opponents.

#93
Wids

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In many books, not being able to slap just 6 lvls of a class to get the better features is a plus; not a negative. And while a pre-Epic 20th lvl Ftr has a grunch of Feats, both the Ftr and Rgr have access to the same AB feats, while the FE bonuses grant +5 dmg; the Ftr only +4 dmg.

...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything.  If your Ranger picks Human, Aberration, Undead, Giant and Dragon for his FE races, he doesn't get anything out of FE everytime he bumps into a golem or a pack of manticores.

And Fighters can take WS long, long before Rangers can build their FE bonuses up to +5, which gives Fighters a survivability edge (meaning fewer respawns, less lost XP and faster Level progression) in the lower Levels.

I never had any problem with playing Fighters, except on pseudo-low magic servers like Prisoners of the Mist (where "low magic" means "no magic items above a +2, while spellcasters still get all their spells").  If you're on a server where your Fighter can obtain any number of respectable magic items (including armor, rings or amulets with Haste, Spell Resistance and True Seeing), then all of the bonus Feats can make a difference against a variety of enemies.  It's always hilarious to watch a Wizard player, all smug behind his Greater Stoneskin and Displacement and Mage Armor and yadda yadda, go on a "WTF?" rant after a sufficiently girded Fighter with a high-damage melee weapon, Improved Critical and so on gets in the Wizard's face and shows him how quickly Greater Stoneskin goes down with someone who does triple-digit melee damage each round wailing on it.  Posted Image

Fighters have a bad rep for some reason, but so do Bards.  Hell, there are people out there who will swear on their own Mama's grave that Clerics and Monks are weak.  No bad rep is really 100% deserved; a lot of it's probably from the mouths of haters who played the class a few times, sucked horribly at it and decided that the fault lay with the class, not with the player's skill (or lack of skill) at playing that class.

Modifié par Wids, 16 septembre 2011 - 08:49 .


#94
WebShaman

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...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything


EXCEPT that WS only works on a specific Weapon type. What if the enemies encountered are immune/have resistence to that type of damage? Up the Creek without a Paddle, hmmm? How about Ranged Weapons? Unless one has taken it for Ranged...then what about Melee?

The Ranger FE is limited as well, but not to Weapon (damage type) or Ranged vs Melee. Meaning that the Ranger can do equally well against an FE with Melee and/or Ranged. Which can really have an advantage if the foe in question is very powerful - the Ranger can switch to Ranged and Kite it.

Don't go praising something in a comparison, without also considering the negatives.

#95
Shadooow

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WebShaman wrote...

...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything


EXCEPT that WS only works on a specific Weapon type. What if the enemies encountered are immune/have resistence to that type of damage? Up the Creek without a Paddle, hmmm? How about Ranged Weapons? Unless one has taken it for Ranged...then what about Melee?

Good point, havent thought of that as Im not used to using anything else than im focused on but it can be certainly advantaging in low level environment (which I dont play at all).

EDIT: but on the other hand, a fighter of same level than ranger have 1+level/2 more feats. You can use this feats for whatever you like but there is also possibility of using them for weapon specialization for various weapon types, so you could take a great sword as primary weapon, then heavy xbow for ranged issues and then warhammer for undead types. You can specialize into (lvl-4)/2 weapons if you would want to. Becoming a WM makes it a bit difficult of course but ranger wm is not even possible at low levels.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:39 .


#96
Kail Pendragon

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Just mc ranger with ftr and you get both FE (and eventually BoE) and WS/EWS. Bard or rogue to round it off. Why getting stuck on single classes?

#97
Johnnydigs

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Weakest class is definitely not bard, if you think so you've probably been playing them like casters or something. If you play it like a strength based fighter with heavy armor your bard will be a better fighter than the fighter. Bard Song+Curse Song+Greater Magic Weapon+Keen+War Cry+Taunt all make it easy to hit your enemies and deal good damage. Bard Song+Improved Invisibility/Concealment(50% miss chance)+Access to Tumble make a bard extremely hard to hit.

Weakest class is also not Ranger. They get two weapon fighting for free, sweet damage bonuses against favored enemies, good amount of skill points, and spells that improve their hide/move silently. Rangers should not be compared to fighters, they should be compared to rogues and monks. Out of those sneaker classes ranger is the one with the highest move silently/hide because of their spells and better at spotting other sneakers because of the bonuses to move listen/spot against favored enemies. Combine all three, ranger/rogue/monk and you get the best sneaker in the game. (If you don't know why sneaking is good, it's because if you attack someone from move silently+ they can't see you, they become flat footed and it's almost impossible for them to not get hit)

Rogue's sneak attack is always nice, and keeps getting better and better as they class progresses. Plus they're the best for skill points, playing with traps, unlocking stuff, and pick pocketing.
.
Cleric, Monk, Sorceror, Wizard, Druid, Paladin I don't think I have to explain.

Fighter is nothing but feats. And only some feats are good. There's really no point in playing a pure fighter for too long but they're really great for multi classing. Everyone needs feats.

That leaves Barbarian and even though it's one of my favorite classes, it is definitely the worst out of all these. All you get is rage and hit points. Rage eventually becomes obsolete as there is a cap to strength and constitution. The damage reduction is laughable so eventually your left with only hit points. That's really lousy. The only time a barbarian might be any good is in a very low magic world where you can't cap your strength and constitution, but then again if you're playing low magic you might as well be a cleric/bard/paladin and not have to deal with the problem of a low magic world . . .

Modifié par Johnnydigs, 16 septembre 2011 - 11:19 .


#98
WebShaman

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Yup, as I stated, Barb is the weakest.

#99
_Guile

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The Answer: in short...

That completely depends upon which environment you are playing from!

If we are talking the OC (Original Campaign) then I would say none really, all classes are balanced, with the exception of mages & cleric, which are grossly uber compared to melee classes.

To me Druids are probably, by far the weakest caster class (not counting bard/paladin/rangers).
Bards, if you build them correctly (multi-classing) are not weak at all, however...
Bards, without multi-classing are very weak & more or less designed for RP / Socializing, lol.

Any build can be weak, though if we are talking about just the base class, bard is pretty weak.

Pure rogues are pretty weak too, but it really depends upon the environment, again in the OC, rogue isn't weak, it's balanced.

Race also effects a Character, so many factors effect a character outside of class, like the gear you have on!

Pinning the tail on the donkey, in this case classes, is rather pointless.

Modifié par _Guile, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:45 .


#100
Wids

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WebShaman wrote...






...which sounds nice, until you consider that Favored Enemy only works on certain types of creatures, while Weapon Specialization works on everything

EXCEPT that WS only works on a specific Weapon type. What if the enemies encountered are immune/have resistence to that type of damage? Up the Creek without a Paddle, hmmm? How about Ranged Weapons? Unless one has taken it for Ranged...then what about Melee?

I can do without the snarky tone, thanks. Posted Image

But how often does that problem really come up?  If a Fighter specializes in battle axes, for example, he's going to wield a battle axe as often as possible, just to milk that Specialization for all it's worth; if the weapon that prompted him to take the Feat is exceptionally powerful, or if the weapon is part of the Fighter's theme as a character (since if you name your Fighter "Gorrgod Axe-Singer," he's probably not into swords), that goes up from a likelihood to a certainty.  And sure, he's going to have trouble with enemies that resist Slashing damage (ie. skeletons) or punish Slashing damage in other ways (ie. ochre jellies).  But unless you're playing on a server which is completely loaded with skeletons, ochre jellies, bone golems and various other Slashing-resistant or Slashing-immune monsters, that battle axe specialization is not going to be a problem very often; the creatures which don't have any kind of resistance or immunity to Slashing are typically the vast majority.  Same goes for Piercing and Bludgeoning.

On the other hand, there 25 races of creatures, of which 24 races are possible choices for Favored Enemy (with Oozes being the exception here).  So unless you're on a server which is heavily loaded with a certain race (ie. Undead on the Prisoners of the Mist server or the various Zombie Survival servers), and your Ranger has chosen that race for one of his one-to-five Favored Enemies, then most of the time he'll be "up the creek without a paddle," to use your own words.

To boil it down a bit, your typical server is like a big tub full of, let's say, 500 oranges and 20 apples.  With Weapon Specialization, that server is telling the Fighter, "See those apples?  Those are the only fruits in that tub which are going to give you trouble.  Enjoy chopping up all those oranges."  But with Favored Enemy, that server is telling the Ranger, "See those apples?  Those are the only fruits that you're going to completely chop the living bajeezus out of.  With all those oranges, you're just going to have to pay full price."  Then your Ranger hits Level 5 (or 10, or 15, or 20) and takes another Favored Enemy, and some lanky guy in a janitor suit comes in, takes 20 oranges out of the tub and dumps 20 more apples into the tub.  But most of the tub is still oranges, which your Ranger's not particularly good at chopping up.

Hey, I can see that you're a big fan of Rangers.  I don't exactly think poorly of Rangers myself; my first character on that PotM server was a Ranger (with Favored Enemies: Undead, Shapechanger and Animal, of course).  When Favored Enemy works, it's great, especially if you have a "Taunter" build or your favored enemy race has stealthers on that server.  But it usually doesn't apply to most of the monsters you run into in your day-to-day ambling around between dungeons...not unless you know exactly where your favored enemies spawn on the server and spend a lot of time hanging out in those places, maybe.

I've gotten a lot more mileage out of Weapon Specialization, like I did when I played a battle-axe-specialist Fighter on PotM.  After ten or twenty chops, those extra 2 points of Damage really add up.  And then on top of that, you add in the extra-extra 2, 4 or even 6 Damage from each Critical Hit, depending on your weapon's critical multiplier....

Ow.

But hey, at least Rangers get to summon a critter to help them dish out more damage, so take comfort in that.

Modifié par Wids, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:52 .