296 réponses à ce sujet

[furryrage59]

alex90c wrote...

The whole "don't compare DA2 to Origins, rate DA2 on its own merits" is such a hilariously bad argument, it's just a way of saying DA2 sucked, just lower your standards enough so that it seems good in comparison to them.

This 1000%.

I believe DA:2 is a very, very bad game. But my view will be bias as i am head over heels in love with DA:O and as they ripped everything out i loved, there was nothing left for me to like.

[Alright-Television]

alex90c wrote...

The whole "don't compare DA2 to Origins, rate DA2 on its own merits" is such a hilariously bad argument, it's just a way of saying DA2 sucked, just lower your standards enough so that it seems good in comparison to them.

It's actually more an excuse and not an argument at all. Arguments attempt to bring a discussion forward. They do not attempt to shut it down. I believe it is perfectly reasonable to praise and criticize a product by its own strengths and weaknesses, regardless of the strenghts and weaknesses of previous installments. Honestly I see little reason to bring up Origins in a discussion about Dragon Age 2. DA2 is the sequel to DAO but that does not mean it should have been "Dragon Age Origins 2". That is not what the word sequel means.

[KotorEffect3]

furryrage59 wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The whole "don't compare DA2 to Origins, rate DA2 on its own merits" is such a hilariously bad argument, it's just a way of saying DA2 sucked, just lower your standards enough so that it seems good in comparison to them.

This 1000%.

I believe DA:2 is a very, very bad game. But my view will be bias as i am head over heels in love with DA:O and as they ripped everything out i loved, there was nothing left for me to like.

So you admit that your own bias prevents you from judging the game fairly then,

[KotorEffect3]

alex90c wrote...

The whole "don't compare DA2 to Origins, rate DA2 on its own merits" is such a hilariously bad argument, it's just a way of saying DA2 sucked, just lower your standards enough so that it seems good in comparison to them.

 
How is it a bad argument to ask you to judge it fairly by looking at it on it's own merits?  Too me it is irrational not to look at it by itself and judge it for what it is instead of judging it for what it isn't.  If you still don't like it for what it is than that is fine but hating it because it isn't origins is ridiculous.

[Romantiq]

Because it is and I will say so again.

[FieryDove]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

How is it a bad argument to ask you to judge it fairly by looking at it on it's own merits?  Too me it is irrational not to look at it by itself and judge it for what it is instead of judging it for what it isn't.  If you still don't like it for what it is than that is fine but hating it because it isn't origins is ridiculous.

Can't we do both? People will always compare fairly or not game x against game y, sometimes even game a, b, c which are not even in the same genre.

If one judges a game in isolation and has never played another game before that is the fairest observation of all. But how many of those can you count on for a franchise to survive?

I loved DAO, still do but do not think DA2 is the worst game ever created. Nor do I think it is a bad game. I like it but have complaints that at times I loudly wave about because I like the franchise as a whole. (And Bioware) Does this make my criticism less valid because I played DAO and went into DA2 with some pre-conceived expectations? I think it’s only fair to have some. 

Modifié par FieryDove, 05 août 2011 - 08:20 .

[Alright-Television]

In my opinion, shortcomings will always be shortcomings. I don't need to compare DA2 with other games to see what's wrong (or right, for that matter) with it.

[bEVEsthda]

In regard of some of the later posts:

I believe that the "hate", the passion (in the expression of dislike), mainly stems from the fact that Bioware and this game (DA2) killed off the beloved Dragon Age of DA:O. As I tried to explore with my previous post on "Jilted Girlfriends/Cheated Wifes).
But that's just the element of passion in the dislike. It doesn't mean that a "fair" judgement by us who truly dislike DA2 will result in any different outcome, even if we tried to judge it independently from DA:O

Because I also believe that many's dislike for DA2 has very little to do with that the game "feels rushed" or that it features reused environments, falling enemies, or other "objective" and analysed flaws. I suspect that some people involving themselves in that discussion, either are people who are mainly fine with DA2, or have been funneled into that role in the heated discussions here, where very concise and tangible issues are demanded for arguments. These discussions aren't only shaped by complaints, but also by fans claiming advantages for DA2, which then leads to detailed counterclaims etc.

The reason I believe these things, comes from using my own reference frame.
Maybe a major reason for dislike has got a bit lost or downplayed. Because I know with absolute certainty that my own dislike for DA2 is entirely based on what type of game DA2 is.
This then, is where we thread into the minefield, the area where people will feel insulted and start to get more belligerent.
It's probably impossible to say "consolish" here, without being jumped on with a lot of selfrighteous abuse, "PC elitist" etc.
But there really is such a thing as consolish flavor of gameplay. And a PC flavor.
This doesn't mean that consolish flavor is inherintly bad or that console games must have consolish gameplay. Both the Call of Duty series and Bethesda's rpgs prove this. These are essentially PC-flavor gameplay. And so, I would argue, is DA:O. And they have all done quite well, haven't they? On the consoles.

But DA2 has consolish flavor gameplay. I respect that they wanted to make combat more responsive and I think that's a good idea. The speed, not so good. But they did so much more. They threw away all pretense at realism or taking the game seriously. "Button - Awesome"-effects. But it's not the only thing that gives it a consolish flavor. There is also that gameplay elements are basically reduced to only combat action, between movies. Then finally, they threw on this cartoony art direction.

I'll take a pause here and confess that I have a PS2, PS3, XB, XB360. And I have all the Tekken fighting games since II (I think), All DOA, and Soul Calibur III and IV (I think I may have II also somewhere, but haven't played it much).
I also have all the CoD games, even the expansions. And I have played them all to the end and last drop.
So I have no prejudice against consoles or consolish gameplay as such. But I do look for PC-flavor gameplay when it comes to cRPGs. Definitely! To me a rpg is not about dropping down into the couch for a bit of "fun". I hate the idea, expressed here by people who - not unsurprisingly - are okay with DA2, that a CRPG is either an "interactive book" or an "interactive movie". No thanks, I want an crpg to aspire to be something different. And I want a RPG to have a serious mood and a serious atmosphere. Of course there should be humour in the game, but the game should take itself seriously, and DA2 just doesn't.

I dislike DA2 for what it is, not for its flaws. I hate the "new direction" where Bioware have taken DA. Nevermind those reused environments or waves. That's really a minor issue. DA2 is not a type of cRPG that I am particularly interested in playing. It's that simple.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 05 août 2011 - 09:19 .

[TheMindMaster]

It was a huge disapointment places were re-used way too many times like no variety in weapons some of the characters perosnalitys were way too dramatic and the controls just mashing A the whole game! TERRIBLE

[contextual_entity]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The whole "don't compare DA2 to Origins, rate DA2 on its own merits" is such a hilariously bad argument, it's just a way of saying DA2 sucked, just lower your standards enough so that it seems good in comparison to them.

How is it a bad argument to ask you to judge it fairly by looking at it on it's own merits?  Too me it is irrational not to look at it by itself and judge it for what it is instead of judging it for what it isn't.  If you still don't like it for what it is than that is fine but hating it because it isn't origins is ridiculous.

Actually, to judge the game fairly, you have to do both. The game is a sequel, it was developed, produced, marketed and named as a sequel. Doing this is precisely saying "this is the next version of our franchise and what we have done with it." If what said sequel has done is demerit the franchise (I'm looking at you, Fallout 3) then yes, that is a demerit to the game that wouldn't have existed if it was a unique series.

It's a trade off, on the one hand you have a series familiar to fans which creates and instant base for your product and greatly reduced preplanning time taken by developing whole new ideas. On the other hand you have a goalpost to meet and a market base to please which risks a poorer reception of your product.

With Dragon Age 2, Bioware took that bet and lost. It's to be expected it should cost them.

Even by it's own merit, Dragon Age 2 is no more than a good (read 7/10) game at best, I'm being somewhat generous there. It has 8/10 moments, but the whole experience is dragged down. Personally I'm nore inclined to rate it a 6.5/10, but from a developer that is known for exceptional products (read 9/10s) it's just not good enough, especially for its fans.

Modifié par Amitar, 05 août 2011 - 09:17 .

[stoicsentry2]

xabiton wrote...

I don't get it. I bought the game about a week and a half ago beat it in a couple of days and loved it. I thought it was really fun and a huge improvement upon Dragon Age Origins and Awakening as far as game play is concerned. I even like Isabella, Carver, Avalina, and Merrill. I never thought much of Anders and Fenneris was intersting but didn't really love him.  My Hawke was a female mage with a diplomatic personality. Anyway I had a ton of fun with this even if the story was way to the left of what was in Origins and I did miss characters like Morigon, Ogrhen and Lelianna, Wynne and even Sten and Dog. Overall great game I am excited to see what happens in DA3

It took you only 2 days to breeze through it, huh?

Well, there's one reason right there.

[Realmzmaster]

I like DA2 for what it is. If I were to compare DAO and DA2 to the all the CRPG I have played. Both would fall short. DAO more so than DA2. Yes I know DA2 had its flaws. But I had more fun playing it than DAO.
That being said I still find that both DAO and DA2 are not as great as Ultima IV, BG1 & 2, PST, Bards Tale, Wizardry and Morrowind. But there are points in DAO and DA2 like the tactics screen that I wish I had in earlier games. Also DAO and DA2 did away with certain D & D and AD & D mechanics that IMHO made no sense.

Ultima IV is one of my favorites because it does not have a save the world plot. I like DA2 and PST more than DAO for the same reason. DAO was more of the standard save the world from the big baddie. I played plenty of save the world plot games. So I look for games that are not in that vein.

The lack of customization for followers did not bother me the way it did others on the forum. I played games before that only allowed you to change the main character. In DAO or DA2 if I found armor I could not use I sold it.
Yes I know in DAO I could equipped the armor on my companions, but the upgrades in DA2 was fine. As long as there were rune slots that I could use to give resistances it was ok. I only had to micromanage Hawke's armor. And I have no problem micromanaging everything. I been there and done it before.

I know that DA2 had a bunch of plot holes and that Act 3 was in dire need of help, but I played CRPGs with a far lesser plot than DA2. Some which have received Game of The Year awards.

I had fun with both DA2 and DAO. I simply had more fun with DA2. The bottom line for me is if I am having fun. It does not matter how well the game looks or is put together if I not having fun. Fun is not quantifiable. I simply know a game is fun or not when I start to play it.

[Realmzmaster]

stoicsentry2 wrote...

xabiton wrote...

I don't get it. I bought the game about a week and a half ago beat it in a couple of days and loved it. I thought it was really fun and a huge improvement upon Dragon Age Origins and Awakening as far as game play is concerned. I even like Isabella, Carver, Avalina, and Merrill. I never thought much of Anders and Fenneris was intersting but didn't really love him.  My Hawke was a female mage with a diplomatic personality. Anyway I had a ton of fun with this even if the story was way to the left of what was in Origins and I did miss characters like Morigon, Ogrhen and Lelianna, Wynne and even Sten and Dog. Overall great game I am excited to see what happens in DA3

It took you only 2 days to breeze through it, huh?

Well, there's one reason right there.

Depends on how long his playing sessions were. I was able to finish the game in 3 days because I was on vacation and my wife was not. I could get up at 7 am and play until she got home at 10:30 pm. She does that Monday thru Wednesday. So right there I put in 46 1/2 hours. Then spend the rest of the week with her. I am back at work so I cannot do that now.

[ApostleinTriumph]

Well, maybe because they were disappointed and they did not like it?

[Jessihatt]

First go took me 22 hours (not inc. Legacy), second 26, 3rd 26+ and still going.
I liked the game. Only when comparing it to Origins does it not seem as good, but alas, it's not Origins.
All games have their faults which vary for everyone.
For me, a few Origins faults were Dog as a full companion (improved in DA2), auto attack (improved in DA2), being able to equip companions with anything (it's nice to change weapons - I agree a rogue should be able to use daggers OR bow, but Oghren + bow?? Nyeh..).
A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
So yeah I liked DA2 but some stuff Bioware probably guessed people would dislike - i.e. recycled environments! Of course people would complain about that, but Legacy has addressed that as I'm sure future DLC will.
Still, I do feel more connected to the Warden than Hawke but that's because the Warden was a blank canvas - no voice and their past erased when they became a warden.
Dragon Age is a great universe though so I hope it continues!

[billy the squid]

CommanderJessica wrote...

...
A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
...

Oh, for heaven sake, not this Sh*te again. Please read anyone of the huge multiplicity of threads that have listed in excruciating detail the problems people have had with design direction and concepts before bringing something like this up. As comments like this are worthy of the proverbial "facepalm" so great, that it would make God himself cry.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 août 2011 - 10:44 .

[Nashiktal]

I don't think DA2 was a bad game, just not up to the Bioware standard of Quality I expect of them. The reuse of assets was just terrible, and cheap for example, something you would not have thought to see from Bioware a few years ago. This game also did not have nearly as much choice as previous games, and unlike Biowares standard of choice and consequence... We got choices with largely the same outcome.

I still enjoyed DA2, but it has made me stop and ponder before I consider preordering any more games from them, at least not without more research first.

[Jessihatt]

billy the squid wrote...

CommanderJessica wrote...

...
A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
...

Oh, for heaven sake, not this Sh*te again. Please read anyone of the huge multiplicity of threads that have listed in excruciating detail the problems people have had with design direction and concepts before bringing something like this up. As comments like this are worthy of the proverbial "facepalm" so great, that it would make God himself cry.

Calm down, don't get so worked up. From what I've read, that is what I've gathered.
I apologise if you feel the need to facepalm over something so trivial.

[billy the squid]

CommanderJessica wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

CommanderJessica wrote...

...
A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
...

Oh, for heaven sake, not this Sh*te again. Please read anyone of the huge multiplicity of threads that have listed in excruciating detail the problems people have had with design direction and concepts before bringing something like this up. As comments like this are worthy of the proverbial "facepalm" so great, that it would make God himself cry.

Calm down, don't get so worked up. From what I've read, that is what I've gathered.
I apologise if you feel the need to facepalm over something so trivial.

This is a perfidious little fantasy that has been peddled and thrown around the forums since the release of DA2 along with any number of other equally daft accusations from both sides, if this is what you have read, then I suggest one reads more carefully before coming to a conclusion.

Those kind of comments have derailed numerous threads, all semblance of reason or discourse collapsing in favour of inane babble, yet it continues to crop up, which is partly why I'm seldom on the forums. Whether you have enjoyed DA2 or not, it is not my place to judge and whilst I found it poor, I have no issue with those that did enjoy it and am quite willing to let things lie, unless actual discussion on percieved merits takes place, which is fine.

Others, however will delight in spinning things out into a multipage flame war, with the excuse of, "but she said said we wanted Origins 2.0" being all they need to take things off topic or cover ground that was flogged to death months ago.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 août 2011 - 11:25 .

[Meeszy Alexy]

stoicsentry2 wrote...

xabiton wrote...

I don't get it. I bought the game about a week and a half ago beat it in a couple of days and loved it. I thought it was really fun and a huge improvement upon Dragon Age Origins and Awakening as far as game play is concerned. I even like Isabella, Carver, Avalina, and Merrill. I never thought much of Anders and Fenneris was intersting but didn't really love him.  My Hawke was a female mage with a diplomatic personality. Anyway I had a ton of fun with this even if the story was way to the left of what was in Origins and I did miss characters like Morigon, Ogrhen and Lelianna, Wynne and even Sten and Dog. Overall great game I am excited to see what happens in DA3

It took you only 2 days to breeze through it, huh?

Well, there's one reason right there.

Long game does not equal good game. If anything, a game that takes too long to complete can put off players. Portal wasn't long at all (I remember it hardly took me any time to finish), and yet I've never heard anybody complain about that. Hell, the only complaints I've heard about that game is of the cake-obsessed fanboys.

To be honest, I just think that people just don't like how different it is to Origins, and I like both games for different reasons. The bugs didn't help either, but at least they patched them up rather quickly, unlike some that I could mention but won't as I'm not so spiteful to constantly **** about one game all the time just because it was different to Origins. 

I'm personally surprised that people are still complaining. It's August, the game was released in March... seriously people, I thought you'd be tired now.

[KotorEffect3]

billy the squid wrote...

CommanderJessica wrote...

...
A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
...

Oh, for heaven sake, not this Sh*te again. Please read anyone of the huge multiplicity of threads that have listed in excruciating detail the problems people have had with design direction and concepts before bringing something like this up. As comments like this are worthy of the proverbial "facepalm" so great, that it would make God himself cry.

No need to be so damn insulting over someone else's opinion

[billy the squid]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

CommanderJessica wrote...

...
A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
...

Oh, for heaven sake, not this Sh*te again. Please read anyone of the huge multiplicity of threads that have listed in excruciating detail the problems people have had with design direction and concepts before bringing something like this up. As comments like this are worthy of the proverbial "facepalm" so great, that it would make God himself cry.

No need to be so damn insulting over someone else's opinion

Stating something is opinion does not make it anymore valid or correct when the premise upon which it is based is wrong.

Modifié par billy the squid, 06 août 2011 - 01:00 .

[KotorEffect3]

billy the squid wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

CommanderJessica wrote...

...
A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
...

Oh, for heaven sake, not this Sh*te again. Please read anyone of the huge multiplicity of threads that have listed in excruciating detail the problems people have had with design direction and concepts before bringing something like this up. As comments like this are worthy of the proverbial "facepalm" so great, that it would make God himself cry.

No need to be so damn insulting over someone else's opinion

Stating something is opinion does not make it anymore valid or correct when the premise upon which it is based is wrong.

Doens't matter if you think it is valid or right or wrong.  That is no excuse for insults.

[FieryDove]

CommanderJessica wrote...

being able to equip companions with anything (it's nice to change weapons - I agree a rogue should be able to use daggers OR bow, but Oghren + bow?? Nyeh..).

You are right. Oggy + Crossbow all the way = awesome. Str over dex.

A lot of people who hate it wanted Origins v.2.
So yeah I liked DA2 but some stuff Bioware probably guessed people would dislike - i.e. recycled environments!

I feel that's a bit unfair to those who have posted concerns. No doubt some wanted Origins 2 and their wardens back, but not all.

The reused areas didn't bother me a bit. Level design takes a lot of work and a lot of time. As was mentioned by a dev a bit ago it was either that or a shorter game. (I'm guessing much shorter). The game was pushed out too early as-is. imho

But we all have our opinions and being different is not always a bad thing. Peace.

[Addai]

FieryDove wrote...
You are right. Oggy + Crossbow all the way = awesome. Str over dex.

Alistair or Loghain with a longbow is dead sexy.

Bring back warrior archers, pls.