102 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

So, we learn the identity of Corypheus as a Tevinter magister lord, one of the old ones that actually corrupted the golden city.  I don't know if anyone picked up on it, but it occurs to me that the existence of Corypheus validates and proves a lot of the Chantry's theology.  Specifically, the bits about the magisters attempting to see the Maker face to face in his golden city; but the attempt corrupting the golden city, turning it black, and unleasing the darkspawn.

[Rifneno]

jamesp81 wrote...

So, we learn the identity of Corypheus as a Tevinter magister lord, one of the old ones that actually corrupted the golden city.  I don't know if anyone picked up on it, but it occurs to me that the existence of Corypheus validates and proves a lot of the Chantry's theology.  Specifically, the bits about the magisters attempting to see the Maker face to face in his golden city; but the attempt corrupting the golden city, turning it black, and unleasing the darkspawn.

Actually he says it was corrupted when they got there.  There's still no proof that the "Maker" even exists, let alone that the golden city (which we don't know was ever golden) was his home.  He also says that Dumat told them to do it.  The Chantry's story relies on it being man's folly, yet another deity was hip-deep in it.

[jamesp81]

I don't guess the Chantry had every detail right then. Still, it's pretty damned convincing considering how much they did get right. Being proven right on a number of items lends creedence to their other claims.

I also suspect we haven't seen the last of Corypheus himself either. Perhaps someday, when DA3 comes out, I shall have the opportunity to......."question" him.

[richleroow]

I've always thought that if the maker exists then would he really allow these duchebags to come in and mess up his home. He is supposed to be a super powerful god isn't he?

[Rifneno]

jamesp81 wrote...

I don't guess the Chantry had every detail right then. Still, it's pretty damned convincing considering how much they did get right. Being proven right on a number of items lends creedence to their other claims.

I also suspect we haven't seen the last of Corypheus himself either. Perhaps someday, when DA3 comes out, I shall have the opportunity to......."question" him.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the mage/templar decision being too lopsided.  DA's writers don't have a big thing about demanding everything be a gray decision and they definitely won't come back later and "clarify" things in a poor attempt to make the evil side look more sympathetic.  They didn't do it with Loghain in DAO, and they're not doing it with mages in DA2.  Heaven forbid.

And yeah, we definitely haven't seen the last of Corypheus.  The last time we got a "dead... for now." journal update was when the Warden "killed" Flemeth.

[TEWR]

copying some of what I said to Rifneno in a PM:

Well, Corypheus seems to imply that the Black City was already tainted BEFORE they arrived. So really, it's not the mages' fault for anything. The only fault that lies on the Tevinters is that they did actually enter there and were corrupted into Darkspawn.

That doesn't mean they caused the Darkspawn. It just means that Dumat tricked them.

The Chantry's story may have a grain of truth, but that's only about the Magisters entering the Fade. No corruption of the city, no emergence of Darkspawn, etc.

A single, solitary grain of truth (addendum: They even got that one wrong! The Magisters listened to Dumat, not their hubris!).



Now what this means is that the Black City is indeed linked to the taint, as Avernus mentioned in his notes. That doesn't mean however the Magisters are the source of the Darkspawn and the Taint.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 août 2011 - 12:30 .

[devilsgrin]

really the only thing the Chantry has "correct" is that the Magister's went into the Fade in an attempt to breach the Golden City.

Whilst they reached A city - it was certainly not Golden.

[Sidney]

You don't know it wasn't corrupted by them still. While he says it was black when they arrived it may have been their sundering of the Fade that corrupted it. One doesn't have to assume it was Golden, they opened the door, and it went to black.

Still, the fact that the magisters did breach the fade and did reach "a" city on the other side is a lot more confirmation of the Chantry line than I expected to get.

[whykikyouwhy]

There is probably some truth swirling around somewhere within the vast array of Chantry teachings, but I think it may be a safe venture to say that it is covered with exaggeration and some poetic license. If the goal of the Chantry is to spread the word of the Maker, then the truth will be bent and shaped to meet that goal.

Some things will resonate true, yes, or be backed up by other records or eyewitness accounts. But the intent behind recording and relaying those truths should be looked at. There is often some kind of bias behind historical documentation (whether intentional or not).

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

copying some of what I said to Rifneno in a PM:

Well, Corypheus seems to imply that the Black City was already tainted BEFORE they arrived. So really, it's not the mages' fault for anything. The only fault that lies on the Tevinters is that they did actually enter there and were corrupted into Darkspawn.

That doesn't mean they caused the Darkspawn. It just means that Dumat tricked them.

The Chantry's story may have a grain of truth, but that's only about the Magisters entering the Fade. No corruption of the city, no emergence of Darkspawn, etc.

A single, solitary grain of truth (addendum: They even got that one wrong! The Magisters listened to Dumat, not their hubris!).



Now what this means is that the Black City is indeed linked to the taint, as Avernus mentioned in his notes. That doesn't mean however the Magisters are the source of the Darkspawn and the Taint.

On the other hand, the fact of the magisters entering the fade with the intent of touching the golden city may have corrupted at the instant they tore open the veil.  Thus appearing to be corrupted by the time they saw it.

In any case, I found Corypheus to be a worthy foe.  I shall enjoy re-killing him when the time comes

[jamesp81]

Sidney wrote...

You don't know it wasn't corrupted by them still. While he says it was black when they arrived it may have been their sundering of the Fade that corrupted it. One doesn't have to assume it was Golden, they opened the door, and it went to black.

Still, the fact that the magisters did breach the fade and did reach "a" city on the other side is a lot more confirmation of the Chantry line than I expected to get.

Exactly my own suspicions and exactly the way I feel about the whole situation.

The whole thing really brought home just how epically bad the magisters of old really were.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

There is probably some truth swirling around somewhere within the vast array of Chantry teachings, but I think it may be a safe venture to say that it is covered with exaggeration and some poetic license. If the goal of the Chantry is to spread the word of the Maker, then the truth will be bent and shaped to meet that goal.

Some things will resonate true, yes, or be backed up by other records or eyewitness accounts. But the intent behind recording and relaying those truths should be looked at. There is often some kind of bias behind historical documentation (whether intentional or not).

I'm not even close to being that jaded about them.

The templars, on the other hand.....

[whykikyouwhy]

@jamesp81 - I'm not exactly jaded. Merely looking at it all with a grain of salt.

And of course, the Templars are the arm of the Chantry, for good or ill.

[Rifneno]

jamesp81 wrote...

On the other hand, the fact of the magisters entering the fade with the intent of touching the golden city may have corrupted at the instant they tore open the veil. Thus appearing to be corrupted by the time they saw it.

Or it was already corrupted.

The Chantry's mythology is based on the golden city (that we don't know for a fact was ever golden), home of the Maker (who we don't know exists or ever existed), was corrupted by man (once again, no evidence). The whole thing is a string of "if"'s. We got confirmation that ONE part of the string of "maybe"'s was half true. That hardly means the Chantry is right.

And what kind of dick is their god anyway? According to Chantry lore, the Golden City was used as an afterlife paradise. It was heaven, pretty much literally. So because five jackasses come in with mud on their boots and get the place all icky, he abandons heaven and tells humanity to go screw itself. He made humanity (hence the title Maker), and he's so surprised and butthurt that a very tiny handful of them did something bad, at the behest of a rival deity no less? What kind of garbage is that? And yes, he does have the power to restore the Black City according to Chantry lore, he just doesn't want to. They say once humanity "atones" that the Maker will come back and cleanse the Black City for them. If the Maker is real, he's a douchebag.

[TEWR]

I find it odd that the Archdemons, who as we know are the corrupted Old Gods, have access to the Fade. Remember Alistair's nightmare?

Does that mean the Old Gods themselves have access to the Fade?

[whykikyouwhy]

There's mention in the wiki of the minds of the Old Gods (post imprisonment) being present in the Fade. (Poor paraphrasing on my part)

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@jamesp81 - I'm not exactly jaded. Merely looking at it all with a grain of salt.

And of course, the Templars are the arm of the Chantry, for good or ill.

Lots of ill, IMO.  The whole thing with "take your sister by force" and comments about how "mages can't be treated like people" kind of sealed it for me where that merry band of bastards are concerned.

[jamesp81]

Rifneno wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

On the other hand, the fact of the magisters entering the fade with the intent of touching the golden city may have corrupted at the instant they tore open the veil. Thus appearing to be corrupted by the time they saw it.

Or it was already corrupted.

The Chantry's mythology is based on the golden city (that we don't know for a fact was ever golden), home of the Maker (who we don't know exists or ever existed), was corrupted by man (once again, no evidence). The whole thing is a string of "if"'s. We got confirmation that ONE part of the string of "maybe"'s was half true. That hardly means the Chantry is right.

And what kind of dick is their god anyway? According to Chantry lore, the Golden City was used as an afterlife paradise. It was heaven, pretty much literally. So because five jackasses come in with mud on their boots and get the place all icky, he abandons heaven and tells humanity to go screw itself. He made humanity (hence the title Maker), and he's so surprised and butthurt that a very tiny handful of them did something bad, at the behest of a rival deity no less? What kind of garbage is that? And yes, he does have the power to restore the Black City according to Chantry lore, he just doesn't want to. They say once humanity "atones" that the Maker will come back and cleanse the Black City for them. If the Maker is real, he's a douchebag.

On the subject of the corruption: hasn't it been shown, somewhere, that others had actually seen the golden city before it was corrupted?  I seem to remember that but I can't really put my finger on where I heard it.

As for the five jackasses and the maker being a dick....

Well, the fade is an odd place.  Things you wouldn't expect to happen sort of do.  I kind of get the idea that the fade is not actually as you see it, but that what you see is merely your mind's best interpretation of a spirit realm that your five senses aren't really equipped to handle.  The rules are different there and, thus, unexpected things tend to happen.  A lot.

[Eleinehmm]

He abandoned heaven and told humanity to go screw itself even before the Magisters really. Need to find the devs post, remember reading it before the first game came out.
The first sin is the old gods worship -> old gods imprisoned, maker abandons humanity
The second sin - Magisters -> Black City and Blights.
He IS an unpleasant fellow

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 01 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[Eleinehmm]

jamesp81 wrote...

On the subject of the corruption: hasn't it been shown, somewhere, that others had actually seen the golden city before it was corrupted?  I seem to remember that but I can't really put my finger on where I heard it.

As for the five jackasses and the maker being a dick....

Well, the fade is an odd place.  Things you wouldn't expect to happen sort of do.  I kind of get the idea that the fade is not actually as you see it, but that what you see is merely your mind's best interpretation of a spirit realm that your five senses aren't really equipped to handle.  The rules are different there and, thus, unexpected things tend to happen.  A lot.

It's in the chant of light, no other sources indicate it was golden

With each step you take in my Hall.

Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.

You have brought Sin to Heaven

And doom upon all the world.

[Mr.House]

Cory says the "Golden city" was already corrupted and he says gods, not god. I see no evidence that the "Maker" is real, in fact I see more evidence that the elven gods where the creators and the old gods wanted there power.

This dlc just proves the Chantry is not telling the truth.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 août 2011 - 03:27 .

[jamesp81]

Mr.House wrote...

Cory says the "Golden city" was already corrupted and he says gods, not god. I see no evidence that the "Maker" is real, in fact I see more evidence that the elven gods where the creators and the old gods wanted there power.

This dlc just proves the Chantry is not telling the truth.

No, it doesn't.

For one, the fact of tearing open the veil could've created the black city.

For another, there's the existence of the old gods doesn't refute the existence of the being the Chantry worships as the maker.

For three, this whole DLC has me convinced that the elves have gotten it even more wrong than the Chantry.  This would be a nice change of pace from most fantasies where the tired old saw of "the nice elves are more in tune with the spiritual than the nast humans" is constantly used.

I don't think the Chantry has the complete picture though.  Much remains hidden.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 août 2011 - 03:45 .

[Mr.House]

jamesp81 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Cory says the "Golden city" was already corrupted and he says gods, not god. I see no evidence that the "Maker" is real, in fact I see more evidence that the elven gods where the creators and the old gods wanted there power.

This dlc just proves the Chantry is not telling the truth.

No, it doesn't.

For one, the fact of tearing open the veil could've created the black city.

For another, there's the existence of the old gods doesn't refute the existence of the being the Chantry worships as the maker.

For three, this whole DLC has me convinced that the elves have gotten it even more wrong than the Chantry.  I don't think the Chantry has the complete picture though.  Much remains hidden.

Gods, remeber that line, that line is very important. The Chantry beleives the Maker is one god, a father and the Tevinter mages assulted the Golden city to take his power and uppsuper him. This is a lie because Cory says Dumat told them to go to the "Golden city" and they would get the power of the gods.

The Chantry has a past for not telling the truth or holding facts(Shartan is not in the Chant, it was the old gods who taught the mages blood magic when in fact it was four demons) The list goes on, this is just another example of an event the Chantry has warped and not saying everything to there followers.

[jlb524]

I hope the elves are 'more' right because:

1) they've been around longer
2) I'm tired of humanity being so awesome.

[Sons of Horus]

jamesp81 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Cory says the "Golden city" was already corrupted and he says gods, not god. I see no evidence that the "Maker" is real, in fact I see more evidence that the elven gods where the creators and the old gods wanted there power.

This dlc just proves the Chantry is not telling the truth.

No, it doesn't.

For one, the fact of tearing open the veil could've created the black city.

For another, there's the existence of the old gods doesn't refute the existence of the being the Chantry worships as the maker.

For three, this whole DLC has me convinced that the elves have gotten it even more wrong than the Chantry.  This would be a nice change of pace from most fantasies where the tired old saw of "the nice elves are more in tune with the spiritual than the nast humans" is constantly used.

I don't think the Chantry has the complete picture though.  Much remains hidden.

I think jamesp81 has it. infact Corypheus and the Architect may have been warped by the golden city turning black, It must have been a huge release of energy. Debris / robes warped with their bodys.

We don't know how the magesters may have entered the fade with their bodys, but maybe it is possible to do with the eluvian mirror, they may not have used any safeguards for them coming into the fade in such a maner.