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[whykikyouwhy]

But what if the Golden City was already black and tainted at its core, and by forcing a way in and crossing that threshold, the magisters unleashed all of the evil (for lack of a better word), thus corrupting themselves and twisting their bodies), bringing the taint across to the living world, and changing the whole of the city to black? Sort of like an amplified Pandora's box - the evil was there, but locked away until the box was opened.

[Mr.House]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

But what if the Golden City was already black and tainted at its core, and by forcing a way in and crossing that threshold, the magisters unleashed all of the evil (for lack of a better word), thus corrupting themselves and twisting their bodies), bringing the taint across to the living world, and changing the whole of the city to black? Sort of like an amplified Pandora's box - the evil was there, but locked away until the box was opened.

This is what I think. I think Dumat tricked them to go to the black city, they might have became corrupted but in turn they became very powerful and so do the old gods.

Really if your god told you "Yes enter this place and you will be corrupted into a evil creature, but you will be powerful!" Would you really listen to it? Of course not, so Dumat said it's the location of the creators power, thus the mages went.

[jlb524]

I tend to think the whole city was crapped up already when they got there.  They were trolled.

Modifié par jlb524, 01 août 2011 - 04:28 .

[Rifneno]

jamesp81 wrote...

Lots of ill, IMO.  The whole thing with "take your sister by force" and comments about how "mages can't be treated like people" kind of sealed it for me where that merry band of bastards are concerned.

Don't forget the rapes and unwarranted stealing people's souls (tranquils).  Don't see how the Chantry doesn't share the blame in their deeds.  The templars are under their command.

On the subject of the corruption: hasn't it been shown, somewhere, that others had actually seen the golden city before it was corrupted? I seem to remember that but I can't really put my finger on where I heard it.

Unless the devs themselves confirmed it, no.  Corypheus has been imprisoned for around 2,000 years, so any mortal being from that era is very, very long dead.  Documentation is possible I suppose, but couldn't be verified.

As for the five jackasses and the maker being a dick....

It wasn't so much saying the Maker is a dick as saying I doubt he exists at all.  AFAIK, Andraste is the root of virtually all the Maker beliefs.  And in case I haven't mentioned it in the past 5 minutes, I'm very strongly of the belief that Andraste was the OGB of Dumat.  Or whatever deity was the first archdemon, it seems they aren't sure it was really Dumat.  Even if that doesn't pan out though, it all goes back to trusting the word of some possibly crazy dead woman.

I hope the elves are 'more' right because:

1) they've been around longer
2) I'm tired of humanity being so awesome.

Awesome?  Every race sucks in Thedas.  Humans spend all their time hatemongering and coming up with excuses to enslave and murder each other en masse.  Elves, the Dalish anyway, have a collective superiority complex that defies description, which they use to justify hating and murdering anyone else.  Even people trying to help them.  Even non-Dalish elves.  And the dwarves?  The way they treat their casteless makes Tevinter look all warm and cuddy; and let's not forget the Primeval Thaig and whatever the holy hell those drunken midgets were doing the only time they weren't worshipping rocks.  Don't even get me started on the goddamn qunari.

Sons of Horus wrote...

I think jamesp81 has it. infact Corypheus and the Architect may have been warped by the golden city turning black, It must have been a huge release of energy. Debris / robes warped with their bodys.

We don't know how the magesters may have entered the fade with their bodys, but maybe it is possible to do with the eluvian mirror, they may not have used any safeguards for them coming into the fade in such a maner.

It was an imperfect teleportation. Almost has to be considering it was the first time it was ever attempted. Their clothing being melded with their skin was a result of them not being, for lack of a better word, put back together right. It's a common enough phenomenon in fantasy teleportation. No reason to think it had anything to do with an energy surge from the Black City.

I do wonder how a Fade full of demons and the like doesn't bother the "Golden" City, but when a human enters the dimension it's instantaneously and completely ruined. Sounds... fishy.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Rifneno - I think jlb524's "awesome" comment was sarcasm (or so I read it as). Humans think they're all that and a bag of chips then subjegate the other races. Humanity self-perception of awesome being the tiresome thing.

[Rifneno]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Rifneno - I think jlb524's "awesome" comment was sarcasm (or so I read it as). Humans think they're all that and a bag of chips then subjegate the other races. Humanity self-perception of awesome being the tiresome thing.

Ahh.  Tone vs text, Round 394,190.  =/

[bleetman]

I would love it if the Old Gods turned out to have nothing to do with it, but that the magisters had been deceived by someone/thing posing as them. Bonus points for it being Fen'harel (or whatever entity was granted that identity by the elves), who did it both to stick it to Tevinter and for his own amusement.

Probably unlikely, no doubt contradictory to what's already been explained, but highly personally gratifying.

Modifié par bleetman, 01 août 2011 - 04:52 .

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

Cory says the "Golden city" was already corrupted and he says gods, not god. I see no evidence that the "Maker" is real, in fact I see more evidence that the elven gods where the creators and the old gods wanted there power.

This dlc just proves the Chantry is not telling the truth.

Well remember, this happened when the Tevinters believed in the Old Gods, so by saying the power of the gods he means the power of the Old Gods.


As for anyone stating the Eluvian to be linked, I assure you that isn't the case. Morrigan says that they link beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade, and the Tevinters used blood magic on it and got a fancy telephone. That was it.

[TEWR]

Flemeth is either Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf or the Dumat OGB (who was Andraste).


Or both?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 août 2011 - 05:09 .

[Rifneno]

Am I the only one who constantly thinks of Loki when they hear Fen'Harel?

[TEWR]

I think of Loki too.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Rifneno - No. They're both the Trickster although Flemeth sort of has hair the shape of old-Marvel Loki's helmet. The Trickster entity is pretty common across mythologies - there's Trickster Coyote to consider (and hmmm, a dog...).

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

But what if the Golden City was already black and tainted at its core, and by forcing a way in and crossing that threshold, the magisters unleashed all of the evil (for lack of a better word), thus corrupting themselves and twisting their bodies), bringing the taint across to the living world, and changing the whole of the city to black? Sort of like an amplified Pandora's box - the evil was there, but locked away until the box was opened.

Also a possibility.  It would also confirm the tevinter magisters as being a bunch of tools, which I guess shouldn't surprise anyone.

[jamesp81]

Don't forget the rapes and unwarranted stealing people's souls
(tranquils).  Don't see how the Chantry doesn't share the blame in their
deeds.  The templars are under their command.

They do to some degree.  But talking to the different templars and you quickly learn that the templars and the chantry aren't this one big, monolithic happy family where everyone agrees.  The templars seem to be straining at the leash as far as the chantry is concerned.  My view of the chantry, thus, is not nearly so dim as that of the templars.

It wasn't so much saying the Maker is a dick as saying I doubt he exists
at all.  AFAIK, Andraste is the root of virtually all the Maker
beliefs.  And in case I haven't mentioned it in the past 5 minutes, I'm
very strongly of the belief that Andraste was the OGB of Dumat.  Or
whatever deity was the first archdemon, it seems they aren't sure it was
really Dumat.  Even if that doesn't pan out though, it all goes back to
trusting the word of some possibly crazy dead woman.

Sorry, but I think you're totally wrong here.  I strongly suspect that which the chantry calls "the maker" does exist.  The elves may even worship the same being as part of their overall pantheon.

I hope the elves are 'more' right because:

1) they've been around longer
2) I'm tired of humanity being so awesome.

Seriously?  Humanity has been portrayed as brutish and arrogant, with elves being portrayed as kind and wise in every fantasy ever written after Lord of the Rings.  It'd be nice for a change where the humans / chantry don't get smeared as the dumbasses.

Awesome?  Every race sucks in Thedas.  Humans spend all their time
hatemongering and coming up with excuses to enslave and murder each
other en masse.  Elves, the Dalish anyway, have a collective superiority
complex that defies description, which they use to justify hating and
murdering anyone else.  Even people trying to help them.  Even
non-Dalish elves.  And the dwarves?  The way they treat their casteless
makes Tevinter look all warm and cuddy; and let's not forget the
Primeval Thaig and whatever the holy hell those drunken midgets were
doing the only time they weren't worshipping rocks.  Don't even get me
started on the goddamn qunari.

I admit, I lol'd.  I don't know if it's so bad as you say, but there is a lot of truth.  Thedas does seem to have a surplus of fail these days.

I do wonder how a Fade full of demons and the like doesn't bother the
"Golden" City, but when a human enters the dimension it's
instantaneously and completely ruined. Sounds... fishy.

The fade is a spirit realm, and spirits live by a different set of rules.  Just as darkness cannot stand against sunlight, the demons of the fade probably had no power to move against the golden city.  Mortals, on the other hand, are a different matter.  Not native to the fade, but still having a spiritual component, they probably aren't repelled by defenses that affect the purely spiritual.

[jamesp81]

bleetman wrote...

I would love it if the Old Gods turned out to have nothing to do with it, but that the magisters had been deceived by someone/thing posing as them. Bonus points for it being Fen'harel (or whatever entity was granted that identity by the elves), who did it both to stick it to Tevinter and for his own amusement.

Probably unlikely, no doubt contradictory to what's already been explained, but highly personally gratifying.

My own theory is sort of like that.  Fen'harel seems to be on some kind of vendetta against anything exhibiting godlike tendencies, thus locking away the elven pantheon and the "bad" gods of the elves.  Maybe he managed the same thing with the maker, which might explain the whole "maker abandoned humanity" thing that seems to be going around.

If that be true, then apparently he missed Dumat in his roundup.  Enter the magisters of tevinter.  Tear open the veil, corrupt the golden city (or simply open a portal to an already corrupted black city; doesn't matter either way) and unleash a bunch of spiritual evil.  Which finds it way to Dumat, thus creating the first archdemon.  Whoops.

If all that's true, maybe turning the maker loose would be a good idea, as he might actually have an idea of how to get rid of the damned blight on a more permanent basis.  Fighting an apocalyptic war every couple of centuries has got to be deleterious to the health of...well...everything.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[dragonflight288]

It wasn't so much saying the Maker is a dick as saying I doubt he exists
at all. AFAIK, Andraste is the root of virtually all the Maker
beliefs. And in case I haven't mentioned it in the past 5 minutes, I'm
very strongly of the belief that Andraste was the OGB of Dumat. Or
whatever deity was the first archdemon, it seems they aren't sure it was
really Dumat. Even if that doesn't pan out though, it all goes back to
trusting the word of some possibly crazy dead woman.

Actually, according to the Codex entries, Andraste was calling people to return to the Maker and the Maker to return to his people. Worshipping the Maker was nothing new.

[Rifneno]

Mash Mashington wrote...

i thought that went without saying to be honest

And I had to go and ruin it.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Rifneno - No. They're both the Trickster although Flemeth sort of has hair the shape of old-Marvel Loki's helmet. The Trickster entity is pretty common across mythologies - there's Trickster Coyote to consider (and hmmm, a dog...).

They're also both shapeshifters who love wolf form. And if some of the theories about Fen'Harel are correct, they also both accidentally triggered an apocalypse by thinning the herd of their fellow gods. ... At least I think Loki triggered Ragnarok by accident. It's been a while. The big difference is that Balder was awesome for an ancient god. All of Thedas' deities seem to have been douchebags. So Fen'Harel's got the moral high ground. And whatever s/he used, it can't be lamer than a piece of mistletoe.

jamesp81 wrote...

Also a possibility. It would also confirm the tevinter magisters as being a bunch of tools, which I guess shouldn't surprise anyone.

Truth.

Sorry, but I think you're totally wrong here. I strongly suspect that which the chantry calls "the maker" does exist. The elves may even worship the same being as part of their overall pantheon.

Why?

The fade is a spirit realm, and spirits live by a different set of rules. Just as darkness cannot stand against sunlight, the demons of the fade probably had no power to move against the golden city. Mortals, on the other hand, are a different matter. Not native to the fade, but still having a spiritual component, they probably aren't repelled by defenses that affect the purely spiritual.

Just a whole lot of theorizing to make the Chantry's version of events stand. It's like a ten foot jenga tower of theorycrafting. So far, one block is confirmed (Tevinters failing up the Fade).

[TEWR]

I still think the Primeval Thaig and its Red Lyrium that thins the Veil has more to do with the Darkspawn than the Tevinters.

Lyrium is known in Thedas as IIRC, the "voice of the Maker". If he does indeed exist, red lyrium might have more to do with him than blue lyrium.

Then, there's the fact that you can hear the same whispering the Darkspawn hear when fighting Meredith.

The lyrium idol sings to Bartrand.

Avernus' notes mention that the Black City and the Taint are indeed linked.

As I'm at work right now, I can't completely say what's going through my mind, but I'm sure people know where I'm going with this.

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding the douchebaggery of deities - I think the DA gods fall in line with the Greek/Roman pantheons in their fallibility. The Greco-Roman gods tend to be very human in their behavior. And douchey.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I still think the Primeval Thaig and its Red Lyrium that thins the Veil has more to do with the Darkspawn than the Tevinters.

Lyrium is known in Thedas as IIRC, the "voice of the Maker". If he does indeed exist, red lyrium might have more to do with him than blue lyrium.

Then, there's the fact that you can hear the same whispering the Darkspawn hear when fighting Meredith.

The lyrium idol sings to Bartrand.

Avernus' notes mention that the Black City and the Taint are indeed linked.

As I'm at work right now, I can't completely say what's going through my mind, but I'm sure people know where I'm going with this.

Dwarfs tainted the city first and they did not survive, they losty there magic.

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I still think the Primeval Thaig and its Red Lyrium that thins the Veil has more to do with the Darkspawn than the Tevinters.

Lyrium is known in Thedas as IIRC, the "voice of the Maker". If he does indeed exist, red lyrium might have more to do with him than blue lyrium.

Then, there's the fact that you can hear the same whispering the Darkspawn hear when fighting Meredith.

The lyrium idol sings to Bartrand.

Avernus' notes mention that the Black City and the Taint are indeed linked.

As I'm at work right now, I can't completely say what's going through my mind, but I'm sure people know where I'm going with this.

Yeah I totally see this. I wish we had more in the Thaig, exploring, clues, etc.

[whykikyouwhy]

The lyrium song may be the old gods who whisper to mages through the Fade - maybe they are transmitted through blue lyrium. The red stuff, I think, is tainted, but with the essence of a magister. Thus the idol "sings" to Bartrand, and the idol-turned-sword speaks to Meredith. It could be that the red lyrium was originally blue and somehow fashioned into a physical key (or channeling point) to "unlock" the door into the supposed Golden City. So you're left with residue from that failed coup and it carries the bulk of the bad stuff unleashed when the threshold was crossed.

Might have muddled some things there.

[Raya Aroukii]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The lyrium song may be the old gods who whisper to mages through the Fade - maybe they are transmitted through blue lyrium. The red stuff, I think, is tainted, but with the essence of a magister. Thus the idol "sings" to Bartrand, and the idol-turned-sword speaks to Meredith. It could be that the red lyrium was originally blue and somehow fashioned into a physical key (or channeling point) to "unlock" the door into the supposed Golden City. So you're left with residue from that failed coup and it carries the bulk of the bad stuff unleashed when the threshold was crossed.

Might have muddled some things there.

Or maybe the red lyrium was originally blue, but stained/tainted red with the sinking of Arlathan. There had to have been some powerful elven mages there, that with their dying breath cast some kind of curse upon humanity.