102 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

Giltspur wrote...

Speaking of Eluvians and Flemeth, I was replaying DAO recently and asking Leliana about Flemeth legends. She mentioned that mothers tell their daughters that if they look in the mirror too long Flemeth will get them. It reminded me of the demon trying to get Merrill through the Eluvian. It also caused me to think of the woman known for her beauty that was possessed by a demon. Which then reminded of that scene on Sundermount with Flemeth acting like she could see the path Merrill was on and seeming to caution her.

Hmm. So we don't know how many Eluvians there were or how many are mostly intact (or rebuildable) now. Perhaps way back when, at the dawn of the legends of Flemeth, she was able to use the portal-Eluvians (just going on the theory that they may have unique uses). Or simply, she used them to scrye. The latter though implies that either, long ago, the daughters being warned had Eluvians of their own, or that any mirror will do. Whatever the case, Flemeth clearly has some foresight, or some hint of things to come. What's interesting is that if she is familiar with the Eluvian, and knew of Merrill's path, she wasn't overly concerned about the existence of that mirror - more, her concern (if we want to call it that) was the end result.

For her, it seems to be all about a means to an end - whatever that end remains to be seen.

[deamon deathstone1]

Of course the maker excists, he's in your house for act 2 and 3. Sandal keeps saying, "I can MAKE it for you!".

[Sidney]

Rifneno wrote...

And what kind of dick is their god anyway? According to Chantry lore, the Golden City was used as an afterlife paradise. It was heaven, pretty much literally. So because five jackasses come in with mud on their boots and get the place all icky, he abandons heaven and tells humanity to go screw itself. He made humanity (hence the title Maker), and he's so surprised and butthurt that a very tiny handful of them did something bad, at the behest of a rival deity no less? What kind of garbage is that? And yes, he does have the power to restore the Black City according to Chantry lore, he just doesn't want to. They say once humanity "atones" that the Maker will come back and cleanse the Black City for them. If the Maker is real, he's a douchebag.

Same kind the old testament god is. Some gal gnoshes down on an  apple and blammo all of humanity is slapped down and has to go and prove themselves over and over. Same basic story actually, paradise is ruined by a few jerks and god goes mental and makes the rest of us suffer. God is rarely very nice.

[whykikyouwhy]

deamon deathstone1 wrote...

Of course the maker excists, he's in your house for act 2 and 3. Sandal keeps saying, "I can MAKE it for you!".

The Sandal-is-the-Maker/Old God theories make me think of Errand from David Eddings' The Mallorean series. The lad even hands you a shiny, glowing stone at one point.

[TEWR]

Matriach wrote...

Kinda off-topic, but all this talk about Morrigan recreating the eluvian made me want to ask about this...Is Morrigan a blood mage or just a really powerful apostate?

Morrigan never recreated an Eluvian. Merrill did.

[dragonflight288]

Morrigan got one working, and was able to turn it into a portal to...someplace. Merrill used a single shard of the eluvian, a scrap of lore and then she completely rebuilt an eluvian. She just didn't know how to activate it. She used blood magic to purify it from the darkspawn taint. There is no in-game evidence to suggest blood magic was needed for anything else.

I think no one knows more about Eluvians than Morrigan and Merrill. Flemeth is a huge maybe, but that is for theories and not in my realm of facts. Should we get a DLC where Merrill and Morrigan meet, we can finally see if their pooled knowledge will make everything Merrill ever sacrificed for the Eluvian worthwhile.

I would like to see that.

[Morroian]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

But what if the Golden City was already black and tainted at its core, and by forcing a way in and crossing that threshold, the magisters unleashed all of the evil (for lack of a better word), thus corrupting themselves and twisting their bodies), bringing the taint across to the living world, and changing the whole of the city to black? Sort of like an amplified Pandora's box - the evil was there, but locked away until the box was opened.

This is far more likely and a logical course for the story to go than the attempt at sundering the veil corrupting the city at the instant the magisters stepped through. Remember also we have the testimony of a demon in DAO that the golden city never existed.

[GavrielKay]

I think the Corypheus dialog is either badly written, purposely misleading or proves the mages innocent.

It is badly written if they actually intended it to prove the Magisters corrupted the Golden City and the Chantry was right all along. Because he doesn't say that at all.

It was purposely misleading if they did this knowingly and really were trying muddy the issue. As in, "what if just going to the Fade did it?" or "what if they didn't go to the Fade at all?"

Otherwise, it can only be interpreted as that the city was already corrupted before the Magisters had anything to do with it. Then the mages are innocent. Even the motives attributed to them by the Chantry are in question, as Corypheus says they were talked into it by Dumat. Dumat either being actually Dumat, or some other being that the Magisters believed was their god and thus had no reason not to follow his advice.

Calling the Magisters evil for following their god isn't any better than calling Elthina evil for following hers - we might think they should know better objectively, but we forgive people for being mislead by religion all the time.

edit:  spelling

Modifié par GavrielKay, 02 août 2011 - 05:01 .

[Sepewrath]

Well I think it was obviously the 3rd one, no way they could make a mistake and contradict the Chantry's story when they were intending to support it. And it would be pointless to try and muddy an already muddy situation. The point of that dialogue was to debunk the Chantry claim and call into question the origins of the Black City and Darkspawn.

When it comes to Morrigan she does know blood magic, the Dark Ritual was some kind of blood magic, but what exactly classifies someone as a blood mage?

[whykikyouwhy]

Sepewrath wrote...
When it comes to Morrigan she does know blood magic, the Dark Ritual was some kind of blood magic, but what exactly classifies someone as a blood mage?

It's possible that Morrigan knows blood magic, although I don't recall it being mentioned. She's quite studious though, so she may have the fundamentals down but has never actually practiced it.

I think blood mages are classified mainly by their use of blood as a spellcasting component.

[DarkCamel]

The Chantry version of a Golden City turning black is consistent with the Cory's version.

The little evidence we have indicates that the City was Golden at one point.

We know that even the weakest mage can see the Black City when they project themselves into the Fade. If Cory was a Magister, he and thousands of other mages would have seen the Golden City in the distance numerous times before the Magister's physically entered the Fade. 

Cory predates the Chant, and Cory expected the City to be golden. Dumat's promise only has real meaning if the Magister's actually had seen the Golden City in the Fade for themselves in the distance.

There is no indication that Cory or anyone else saw a Black City, or never saw a city at all. Nor is there any indication that the Mages of Tevinter were less capable of projecting into the Fade than the meekest mage undergoing the Harrowing.

Whether something was manipulating all the mages with a false vision from the Fade, is another question. But even then, the City which was appeared Golden ended up Black between the time Cory last projected into the Fade, and the time he tried to enter.

[whykikyouwhy]

DarkCamel wrote...

The Chantry version of a Golden City turning black is consistent with the Cory's version.

The little evidence we have indicates that the City was Golden at one point.

We know that even the weakest mage can see the Black City when they project themselves into the Fade. If Cory was a Magister, he and thousands of other mages would have seen the Golden City in the distance numerous times before the Magister's physically entered the Fade. 

Cory predates the Chant, and Cory expected the City to be golden. Dumat's promise only has real meaning if the Magister's actually had seen the Golden City in the Fade for themselves in the distance.

There is no indication that Cory or anyone else saw a Black City, or never saw a city at all. Nor is there any indication that the Mages of Tevinter were less capable of projecting into the Fade than the meekest mage undergoing the Harrowing.

Whether something was manipulating all the mages with a false vision from the Fade, is another question. But even then, the City which was appeared Golden ended up Black between the time Cory last projected into the Fade, and the time he tried to enter.

I've brought up the Fade in other posts, and the correlation between the Black City visible in the Fade and the Golden City (speculation on whether or not it was visible). But what if the Fade was never the route to the Golden City?

There seems to be some conflicting entries in the wiki (or I'm getting them mixed up). The Codex Entry for the Black City states: "The Chant teaches that the Black City was once the seat of the Maker, from whence He ruled the Fade, left empty when men turned away from Him. Dreamers do not go there, nor do spirits. Even the most powerful demons seem to avoid the place."

The Golden City is described as "According to the Chantry, the Maker created the Golden City for His mortal children to enter when they died. This heaven was destroyed when the magisters of the Imperium set foot inside while still alive, changing it into the Black City and the mages into the first darkspawn. "

So on one hand, you have the Maker residing in the Black City and leaving it when man turned to the old gods (again). On the other hand, you have the creation of the Golden City as a heaven (no mention of the Maker hanging his hat there), but it becomes the Black City when the magister trespassing occurs - not when the faithful turn elsewhere.

So what if the City (either) was separate from the Fade, but exists somehow as an echo within it? (at least, its Black form) This might lend more to the theory that the Eluvian, or some other portal, was utilized to cross that threshold.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 02 août 2011 - 01:56 .

[Sajuro]

Good catch whykikyouwhy

Modifié par Sajuro, 02 août 2011 - 01:59 .

[TEWR]

So.... Morrigan sought help from the Maker?

*in a deep voice*

"So fleshling... you've figured it out!"

*gives a laugh that sounds deep and like 'Mreheheheheheh'*

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So.... Morrigan sought help from the Maker?

*in a deep voice*

"So fleshling... you've figured it out!"

*gives a laugh that sounds deep and like 'Mreheheheheheh'*

"A man of ambition...I'll bet he has a sinister laugh."

[Morroian]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well I think it was obviously the 3rd one, no way they could make a mistake and contradict the Chantry's story when they were intending to support it. And it would be pointless to try and muddy an already muddy situation. The point of that dialogue was to debunk the Chantry claim and call into question the origins of the Black City and Darkspawn.
 

Bingo!

[Rifneno]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I would nev...I mean, Flemeth would never do that.

In all seriousness, I don't know that it would serve her in any way to do so. She seems to be concerned with self-preservation. A Blight might make that either difficult, or tedious.

My theory on Flemeth's seeming callousness is that she knows so much, sees so much, she can't afford to empathize with everyone. It would break even her. She must harden herself to the sheer cruelty of nature inflicting itself upon countless lives.

jlb524 wrote...

I got the impression that Flemeth did count on that happening.  She knows her Morrigan XD

Ditto. Although I believe it's more than knowing Morrigan. Flemeth borders on omniscient.

[BBK4114]

deamon deathstone1 wrote...

Of course the maker excists, he's in your house for act 2 and 3. Sandal keeps saying, "I can MAKE it for you!".

Thanks for making me laugh.      Of course Sandal is...something. 

[GavrielKay]

DarkCamel wrote...
The Chantry version of a Golden City turning black is consistent with the Cory's version.

I disagree.  Corypheus says the city was already Black when the Magisters got there.  The Chant says it turned black when they trespassed in the Golden City.

The little evidence we have indicates that the City was Golden at one point.

The only "evidence" we have that I can recall is the Chant (and Chantry) itself.  I don't recall anyone claiming to have seen the city, or an objective account of what it looked like from pre-Corypheus times.  As an eye witness who has been sleeping for 2000 years and isn't caught up in the politics of the matter, I'd trust Corypheus over the Chant any day.

We know that even the weakest mage can see the Black City when they project themselves into the Fade. If Cory was a Magister, he and thousands of other mages would have seen the Golden City in the distance numerous times before the Magister's physically entered the Fade. 

And yet I don't recall any accounts of it from those supposed 1000s of mages.  Perhaps it was a myth.  Perhaps mages started seeing a Black City when they dreamed and the Chantry came up with a story to cover it.

Cory predates the Chant, and Cory expected the City to be golden. Dumat's promise only has real meaning if the Magister's actually had seen the Golden City in the Fade for themselves in the distance.

Corypheus was goaded by a being he thought was Dumat.  He may never have seen any Golden City himself but he believed in his god and tried to get there anyway.

There is no indication that Cory or anyone else saw a Black City, or never saw a city at all. Nor is there any indication that the Mages of Tevinter were less capable of projecting into the Fade than the meekest mage undergoing the Harrowing.

Then he could easily have said something to confirm that.  He could have said "we saw the city every night in our dreams and decided to go there."  So either the Devs wanted to leave it open for argument, or it didn't happen that way.  I'm really not sure which.

Whether something was manipulating all the mages with a false vision from the Fade, is another question. But even then, the City which was appeared Golden ended up Black between the time Cory last projected into the Fade, and the time he tried to enter.

We only have the Chant and apparently Dumat claiming there is a Golden City.  With no confirmation that there was a Golden City in the spot where the Black City is now, I say the Chant is more in doubt than it was, rather than less.

[ruleonecardio]

jamesp81 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

copying some of what I said to Rifneno in a PM:

Well, Corypheus seems to imply that the Black City was already tainted BEFORE they arrived. So really, it's not the mages' fault for anything. The only fault that lies on the Tevinters is that they did actually enter there and were corrupted into Darkspawn.

That doesn't mean they caused the Darkspawn. It just means that Dumat tricked them.

The Chantry's story may have a grain of truth, but that's only about the Magisters entering the Fade. No corruption of the city, no emergence of Darkspawn, etc.

A single, solitary grain of truth (addendum: They even got that one wrong! The Magisters listened to Dumat, not their hubris!).



Now what this means is that the Black City is indeed linked to the taint, as Avernus mentioned in his notes. That doesn't mean however the Magisters are the source of the Darkspawn and the Taint.

On the other hand, the fact of the magisters entering the fade with the intent of touching the golden city may have corrupted at the instant they tore open the veil.  Thus appearing to be corrupted by the time they saw it.

In any case, I found Corypheus to be a worthy foe.  I shall enjoy re-killing him when the time comes

This.

Modifié par ruleonecardio, 02 août 2011 - 03:57 .

[Rifneno]

Sure, why not. There's no evidence of a Maker, let alone that he had a golden city, or that there was a golden city at all. Let's contrive some stuff to shoehorn in this new information with the official story, as official stories tend to be accurate in video game worlds.

[Darius Vir]

This was always something that bothered me, even before Legacy, regarding the former status of the Black City.

Tevinter had been a whacked out, crackmagic-addicted empire for almost a thousand years before the First Blight. They'd been screwing with this stuff for a long time. Mages must have been familiar with the Fade...what was it they were perceiving at THAT time? The Black City or Golden City? Possibly no city?

It's just strange, imo, because it seems some kind of record of what mages saw in the Fade for all that time should have survived at least in Tevinter. And Tevinter's not isolated enough that some scholar like Genitivi or Petrine wouldn't have picked up on it.

Modifié par Darius Vir, 02 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[Rifneno]

Darius Vir wrote...

This was always something that bothered me, even before Legacy, regarding the former status of the Black City.

Tevinter had been a whacked out, crackmagic-addicted empire for almost a thousand years before the First Blight. They'd been screwing with this stuff for a long time. Mages must have been familiar with the Fade...what was it they were perceiving at THAT time? The Black City or Golden City? Possibly no city?

It's just strange, imo, because it seems some kind of record of what mages saw in the Fade for all that time should have survived at least in Tevinter. And Tevinter's not isolated enough that some scholar like Genitivi or Petrine wouldn't have picked up on it.

A good question, but I can see why we don't have an acceptable answer.  Two reasons.  The first being that information is much harder to spread in ancient times, and much easier to suppress. Especially when said information could be considered sacrilege in a world where you can executed for it. The second reason is that Tevinter itself is even Andrastian now, just with a slightly different set of beliefs than the Orlesian sect we're accustom to. If they condemn their former magisters, and it's likely that they do (look at how modern Germany views Hitler), they wouldn't be too thrilled about such a thing either.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Darius Vir - It could be that all such records were purged. It's certainly feasible that history could be rewritten, though I would suspect that some hint, or scrap of paper, or obscure reference would survive any such grand removal.

It could be that the golden city was always legend - a tale told to entice, thrill, and provide some comfort. The magisters attempted to cross into something, but maybe it wasn't a city per se. And maybe the Black City seen in the Fade is also not a city but the manifestation of that rip in the ether caused by that crossing over.

We could just layer the speculations on top of other speculations. Until we get yet another snippet of information at least.