28 réponses à ce sujet

[TheAwesomologist]

Unless I missed something (if so please point it out to me) if you side with the "crazy ghoul" in Legacy he explains that Malcolm Hawke was a blood mage, or at least dabbled in blood magic. Sad part is, during that conversation Hawke can only ask about it and never comments that he is one himself (nor does Merrill say anything on the subject).

A pity there isn't a little more on blood magic itself not being evil but rather the greed and thirst for power of some individuals (and every damned enemy mage in DA2's main story) who use their power in evil ways. Overall the DLC was good, but it's sad to see another missed opportunity to identify Hawke as a Blood Mage (or at least something from Merrill on the practice of blood magic).

Modifié par TheAwesomologist, 01 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Actually there's a bit you can get at the top of the tower that explains that the Wardens threatened to kill Leandra if Malcom didn't perform the blood magic ritual. He didn't willingly perform blood magic.

[TheAwesomologist]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Actually there's a bit you can get at the top of the tower that explains that the Wardens threatened to kill Leandra if Malcom didn't perform the blood magic ritual. He didn't willingly perform blood magic.

I didn't gather that he was forced to used blood magic so much as he was forced to do the work for the Wardens since they needed someone without the corruption of the blight.
Maybe I need to listen to the conversation again, this time with subtitles.

EDIT: Also, although it wasn't a factor in DA2 (missed opportunity...) you need to be taught how to use blood magic (most likely from a demon). In DA1 you learn it from a demon, and we know Merrill learns it from the demon on Sundermount.

Modifié par TheAwesomologist, 01 août 2011 - 02:29 .

[dewayne31]

might redo the will quest and listen to him at end.

[whykikyouwhy]

There are probably logistical reasons why being a blood mage isn't called out (time spent for new animations and dialogue?). But game-wise, I just took blood magic to be one of those things you didn't advertise. No neon sign or big placard. Bad enough, in the eyes of most of Thedas, that you're a mage.

Sure, it continues the negative attitude toward mages and blood magic by being silent, but maybe this is meant to simply focus on the class vs the subsect - by Hawke being a mage of standing, honor, etc, that already helps to disprove some of the stereotypes. Just ignore the copious band-aids on his/her fingers.

[Torax]

Actually they never say that he had to do anything. In fact it's pointed out in dialogue that he didn't even have to do anything with the spirits that were bound there. All he did was help to fortify the holds and that is it. That doesn't necessarily mean he had to use Blood Magic. He very well could have just felt that the entire situation seemed wrong. That the Grey Wardens were doing something they shouldn't have. In fact he very well may have believed that Cory had to be destroyed not be kept in traps. Meanwhile the Grey Wardens likely wanted to keep him until they could find a use for him. Hence forcing Malcolm to do their bidding.

[TheAwesomologist]

Torax wrote...

Actually they never say that he had to do anything. In fact it's pointed out in dialogue that he didn't even have to do anything with the spirits that were bound there. All he did was help to fortify the holds and that is it. That doesn't necessarily mean he had to use Blood Magic. He very well could have just felt that the entire situation seemed wrong. That the Grey Wardens were doing something they shouldn't have. In fact he very well may have believed that Cory had to be destroyed not be kept in traps. Meanwhile the Grey Wardens likely wanted to keep him until they could find a use for him. Hence forcing Malcolm to do their bidding.

The female warden explicitly states that Malcolm Hawke used blood magic to form the seals. By reading the various codex stuff it appears that the seals must be renewed every few years.

While I can understand that Hawke wouldn't advertise s/he's a blood mage, certainly the news that Malcolm himself used it at times, always for the better as the ghost said, it should mean something to Hawke. Or even Merrill if she's with you and trying to convince any type of Hawke that blood magic itself is not evil.

It doesn't take away from the fun of Legacy but it still feels like a missed opportunity. As is the general ommision of anything blood magic and Hawke related in the main campaign, unlike DA:O where we're givin several sides to the use of blood magic.

[TheAwesomologist]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

There are probably logistical reasons why being a blood mage isn't called out (time spent for new animations and dialogue?). But game-wise, I just took blood magic to be one of those things you didn't advertise. No neon sign or big placard. Bad enough, in the eyes of most of Thedas, that you're a mage.

Sure, it continues the negative attitude toward mages and blood magic by being silent, but maybe this is meant to simply focus on the class vs the subsect - by Hawke being a mage of standing, honor, etc, that already helps to disprove some of the stereotypes. Just ignore the copious band-aids on his/her fingers.

Considering the Wardens have few reservations about Blood magic and they're the only audience there (besides your companions who've all likely seen you pull a staff out of your freakin' chest) I don't think it's a huge issue about whether or not to make it known. Even if your Hawke isn't a blood mage there's a chance Merrill is with you. I just feel like someone should have said something.

[dragonflight288]

I didn't gather that he was forced to used blood magic so much as he was forced to do the work for the Wardens since they needed someone without the corruption of the blight.
Maybe I need to listen to the conversation again, this time with subtitles.

EDIT: Also, although it wasn't a factor in DA2 (missed opportunity...) you need to be taught how to use blood magic (most likely from a demon). In DA1 you learn it from a demon, and we know Merrill learns it from the demon on Sundermount.

Jowan learns blood magic from books. In Awakening, you can learn blood magic from a book. Not just the duchess.

[GavrielKay]

Given the writers are trying to even out the opinion of the mages vs. the Templars, I don't think we're likely to see much dialog around blood magic being a tool that can be used for "good." Plus the difficulty of adding in extra tidbits to satisfy each variant would get tedious.

I was surprised that we hear about Malcolm doing such magic however. It seemed from DA2 main that Malcolm hid his magic from most everyone and didn't practice it generally. Did I miss something that explains how the Wardens knew to rope him into their work? They would have to know he was a mage and capable of powerful blood magic.

[TEWR]

Malcolm's magic was exposed when he saved the leader of a mercenary company. But... he did end up leaving shortly after.


Of course, he was a Fereldan apostate from the Kirkwall Circle

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[Sepewrath]

It would have been kind of pointless because the worlds opinion on blood magic will not change, Whether your a good blood mage or not, the characters in the game will always throw around the fact that blood magic is evil, its up to the player to discern whether they want to believe that or not. Obviously the Grey Warden's have no issues with using blood magic, to fight Darkspawn or do whatever it is that they do, so Hawke saying look I'm a blood mage, their response would be "yeah....we don't care"

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Malcolm's magic was exposed when he saved the leader of a mercenary company. But... he did end up leaving shortly after.


Of course, he was a Fereldan apostate from the Kirkwall Circle

Given the conflicting information provided by Tobrius and the Mage Pack gear, Malcolm's backstory is so convoluted that it belongs on a soap opera. He's a Ferelden apostate who chanced upon Kirkwall for a mission as a mercenary, met a woman he fell in love with, left quickly because he was spotted as a mage by the carta, somehow knew Kirkwall mage Tobrius and Kirkwall templar Ser Carver despite being an apostate, and encountered Grey Wardens while leaving Kirkwall quickly after an Orlesian ball while also being let go by Ser Carver and the Wardens.

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jowan learns blood magic from books.

Though we don't really know that, he never really stated where he learned it. Some expert blood magic books essentially tell you to summon a demon and force it to teach you blood magic, for example. Could very well be the same in this case.

In Awakening, you can learn blood magic from a book. Not just the duchess.

Which makes no sense, if you recall the very same seller is selling a Reaver skill book. You'd have to drink drake blood, you can't simply read up on how to become a Reaver.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 août 2011 - 11:39 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Malcolm's magic was exposed when he saved the leader of a mercenary company. But... he did end up leaving shortly after.


Of course, he was a Fereldan apostate from the Kirkwall Circle

Given the conflicting information provided by Tobrius and the Mage Pack gear, Malcolm's backstory is so convoluted that it belongs on a soap opera. He's a Ferelden apostate who chanced upon Kirkwall for a mission as a mercenary, met a woman he fell in love with, left quickly because he was spotted as a mage by the carta, somehow knew Kirkwall mage Tobrius and Kirkwall templar Ser Carver despite being an apostate, and encountered Grey Wardens while leaving Kirkwall quickly after an Orlesian ball while also being let go by Ser Carver and the Wardens.

I believe it goes something like this:

Malcolm was a Fereldan that was raised in the Free Marches and was sent to Kirkwall's Circle (or he was sent there from Ferelden's Circle much like Karl was). Or he was a Ferelden raised in the Free Marches, sent to Starkhaven's Circle, then transferred to Kirkwall's. Anyway...

Eventually, he escaped the Circle in Kirkwall and became an apostate, where he joined a mercenary company. When he and the leader of the Crimson Oars went to Kirkwall, he not only met Leandra but exposed his being a mage when he saved the leader of his mercenary group. Unable to leave Leandra, he snuck into an Orlesian ball being held in Kirkwall and ran off with her in the night.

Fleeing the Templars for a year, he found a brief respite, but soon the Wardens found him through their contacts and forced him to strengthen the seals. If he didn't, Leandra would die. Loving her with all his heart, he reluctantly agreed.

Afterwards, he left with her and his child (or was that child-to-be?) and found a life in Ferelden.

Makes sense to me anyway.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jowan learns blood magic from books.

Though we don't really know that, he never really stated where he learned it. Some expert blood magic books essentially tell you to summon a demon and force it to teach you blood magic, for example. Could very well be the same in this case.

We KNOW canonically that you don't need to summon a demon to learn bloodmagic.  If a bloodmage warden gives Anders the blood magic speciality, Anders will comment on this during the game during the in game dialog making this alternation canonical. 

Ergo, we have at least one case (Anders) where bloodmagic was learned without summoning a demon and that's all we need.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

I think you put more thought into that than the writers, Ethereal.

Ian, there's also the Orlesian Warden can also ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic in return for his service, which concludes that the mage protagonist expects her to instruct him on the art of blood magic since he assumes that she's simply a mage. Anders also asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jowan learns blood magic from books.

Though we don't really know that, he never really stated where he learned it. Some expert blood magic books essentially tell you to summon a demon and force it to teach you blood magic, for example. Could very well be the same in this case.

We KNOW canonically that you don't need to summon a demon to learn bloodmagic.  If a bloodmage warden gives Anders the blood magic speciality, Anders will comment on this during the game during the in game dialog making this alternation canonical. 

Ergo, we have at least one case (Anders) where bloodmagic was learned without summoning a demon and that's all we need.

-Polaris

Are you really going to beat that poor dead old horse again? Fine then....

Where is your proof that it is the Warden who taught Anders blood magic? Hmm? I rest my case.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think you put more thought into that than the writers, Ethereal.

Ian, there's also the Orlesian Warden can also ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic in return for his service, which concludes that the mage protagonist expects her to instruct him on the art of blood magic since he assumes that she's simply a mage. Anders also asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident.

All true.  I was just looking for one incontravertable example were bloodmagic is taught (and aknowledged as such within the game) without demons being involved.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Are you really going to beat that poor dead old horse again? Fine then....

Where is your proof that it is the Warden who taught Anders blood magic? Hmm? I rest my case.

We know that Anders wasn't a bloodmage before.  We know that is why the Templars never killed him before.  Anders without prompting from the Warden tells the Warden that the fact he is a maleficar now after being taught by the warden makes it all highly ironic.

The conversation files are very specific about this.  The Warden teaches Anders bloodmagic.  It's the only way he ever learns it.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

In DA2, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accidentally cutting herself and learning the power that way. That would make sense as it could happen. They just wouldn't know the more complicated rituals.

[OmegaXI]

Well if you play as a mage then in legacy you do use blood magic, the scene were hawke cuts himself and uses his blood to break the seal would be considered blood magic right?

[Demx]

OmegaXI wrote...

Well if you play as a mage then in legacy you do use blood magic, the scene were hawke cuts himself and uses his blood to break the seal would be considered blood magic right?

All classes do that. What you are saying is similar to saying that a dog is capable of blood magic. Hawke is just providing the blood needed for the spell that was already cast.

[OmegaXI]

Siradix wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Well if you play as a mage then in legacy you do use blood magic, the scene were hawke cuts himself and uses his blood to break the seal would be considered blood magic right?

All classes do that. What you are saying is similar to saying that a dog is capable of blood magic. Hawke is just providing the blood needed for the spell that was already cast.

So a Dog would have the blood of a Hawke and beable to take part in  breaking the blood magic seal contianing Cory?
Also if Hawke's a Mage what he did is considered blood magic, he is a Mage that uses his blood for magic reasons, in this case it was breaking the seal which was made by using blood Magic.

Think back to when the Mage's kidnap your LI or your brother/sister the surviving mage says that since the spell on them is from blood magic the only way to break it using magic would be to use blood magic.

Modifié par OmegaXI, 08 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[Out to Lunch]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In DA2, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accidentally cutting herself and learning the power that way. That would make sense as it could happen. They just wouldn't know the more complicated rituals.

But wouldn't that mean all mages are blood mages? Especially those that get into fights like Hawke. S/he continues casting magic even with low health points which usually involves knife/sword/dagger wounds which equals blood. I just don't see how you could accidentally learn the power of blood magic. It seems like you would have to know how to use the blood in place of the mana.

Modifié par Out to Lunch, 08 août 2011 - 09:43 .