404 réponses à ce sujet

[Kazzorswan]

I have no idea why anyone would side with templars. They are the sole reason for blood magic. Consider this analogy: In star wars the jedi mantain the law while constantly battling within themselves with the dark side of the force. Even though this struggle is hard it is kept in balanced because the jedi know they alone stand against the sith and keep order. Children join the order as a priveledge at young ages to learn to control their power. Now imagine if everyone feared the jedi and everytime a jedi became a sith the entire jedi order is destroyed.

This is the harsh reality that mages face everyday in Thedas. The chantry locks them up never allowing them to test their powers, while the templars symbolize the human condition (if you dont understand it kill it). With a constant climate of fear and oppression the mages are driven to issanity, if they even think of blood magic they are killed. Think about all the blood mages Hawke has killed most if not all were driven to demons because they were so desperate to escape their templar captors, look at the extremes Anders took. And honestly i haven't met an abomination that takes more then 4 people to kills, so their not that strong.

I know the the tevinter imperium f'd up but a government where mages are revered as peace keepers would be a far more stable one.
SO PLEASE PROTECT THE MAGES
(the mages should definatley make hogwarts btw)

[Cutlass Jack]

The best arguement for siding with the Templars is to choose the Mages.

[Night Prowler76]

You still end up having to dice up the leader of the Templars and Mages, seems inconsequential to me.

[Zanallen]

I prefer siding with the Templars.

[Wydi]

Following your logic, siding with the mages would be like siding with the sith - with the ultimate goal being the destruction of the Jedi Order. That's not any better.

So that analogy isn't working out so well.
I sided with the mages anyways, since there was no "None of you guys" choice..

[Ollys]

There can not be a peace between normal people and mages. There can not be equal rights, if they have different possibilities - for exampe, you don't use wheelchair because someone can't walk like you. So even if it not bloodmagic, mages will use they magic as advantage and with freedom they should receive the political power sooner or later.
So there will be Teventer, where all normal people are slaves, or Circles with poor oppressed mages.
But mages the minority, so better what we can do is eliminate them for the sake of majority.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 août 2011 - 06:22 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Jets or Sharks, it's such an important decision.

I think A West Side Story was more dynamic.

[Wydi]

Ollys wrote...

There can not be a peace between normal people and mages. There can not be equal rights, if they have different possibilities - for exampe, you don't use wheelchair because someone can't walk like you. So even if it not bloodmagic, mages will use they magic as advantage and with freedom they should receive the political power sooner or later.
So there will be Teventer, where all normal people are slaves, or Circles with poor oppressed mages.
But mages the minority, so better what we can do is eliminate them for the sake of majority.

Don't get me wrong, but that's pretty similar to what the ****s said about Jews.
Just sayin', I don't want to imply that you are a ****.

Edit: Well...censored. But I guess you understand what I mean. 

There are multiple ways of gaining power. The Warden can become the greatest power in Ferelden as a rogue or warrior, but we'd never jail them for being fighters, right?
Of course, mages can be dangerous, but everyone can. The only difference is that mages are more tempted to misuse their power and/or side with demons.
Nobody chooses to be a mage, nobody has the chance to prove his or her innocence and trustworthiness. Blaming all mage for just being what they are is not right. And by today's Human Rights, it would be against the law.
Wynne isn't evil, Morrigan isn't really evil, Bethany isn't evil, Jowan isn't evil, Velanna isn't evil, the Warden might not be evil, even Anders isn't evil at all. 

Modifié par Wydi, 01 août 2011 - 06:35 .

[Kazzorswan]

Wydi wrote...

Following your logic, siding with the mages would be like siding with the sith - with the ultimate goal being the destruction of the Jedi Order. That's not any better.

So that analogy isn't working out so well.
I sided with the mages anyways, since there was no "None of you guys" choice..

No in the game you don't side with blood mages which are the sith in my analogy. The jedi have been held captive by the chantry. What I'm sayin is templars are like "if you were a blood mage we'de be in trouble", then they brutally torrment good mages who say "maybe I'll stand a chance if I become a bloodmage and the templars with fear me".
Really, its a endless circle of futility so to speak

[Cutlass Jack]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Jets or Sharks, it's such an important decision.

I think A West Side Story was more dynamic.

"Mage, mage, crazy mage,
Get cool, mage!
If you use blood magic,
it will be tragic,
Keep coolly cool, mage!
Don't get hot,
'Cause man, you got
An abomination in your head.
Take it slow and see,
You can live it up in tranquility! "


(with apologies to Bernstein and Sondheim)

[Ollys]

Wydi wrote...

There are multiple ways of gaining power. The Warden can become the greatest power in Ferelden as a rogue or warrior, but we'd never jail them for being fighters, right?
Of course, mages can be dangerous, but everyone can. The only difference is that mages are more tempted to misuse their power and/or side with demons.
Nobody chooses to be a mage, nobody has the chance to prove his or her innocence and trustworthiness. Blaming all mage for just being what they are is not right. And by today's Human Rights, it would be against the law.
Wynne isn't evil, Morrigan isn't really evil, Bethany isn't evil, Jowan isn't evil, Velanna isn't evil, the Warden might not be evil, even Anders isn't evil at all. 

Right or bad, but check Star Wars example from op-post. Yesterday's jedi became a sith-emperor and now some force-user rule over all galaxy. It not about good and evil. Strong always rule over weak.
And heres no today civil rights - Thedas is harch and grim medieval world.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 août 2011 - 06:44 .

[Kazzorswan]

Wydi wrote...

Ollys wrote...

There can not be a peace between normal people and mages. There can not be equal rights, if they have different possibilities - for exampe, you don't use wheelchair because someone can't walk like you. So even if it not bloodmagic, mages will use they magic as advantage and with freedom they should receive the political power sooner or later.
So there will be Teventer, where all normal people are slaves, or Circles with poor oppressed mages.
But mages the minority, so better what we can do is eliminate them for the sake of majority.

Don't get me wrong, but that's pretty similar to what the ****s said about Jews.
Just sayin', I don't want to imply that you are a ****.

Edit: Well...censored. But I guess you understand what I mean. 

There are multiple ways of gaining power. The Warden can become the greatest power in Ferelden as a rogue or warrior, but we'd never jail them for being fighters, right?
Of course, mages can be dangerous, but everyone can. The only difference is that mages are more tempted to misuse their power and/or side with demons.
Nobody chooses to be a mage, nobody has the chance to prove his or her innocence and trustworthiness. Blaming all mage for just being what they are is not right. And by today's Human Rights, it would be against the law.
Wynne isn't evil, Morrigan isn't really evil, Bethany isn't evil, Jowan isn't evil, Velanna isn't evil, the Warden might not be evil, even Anders isn't evil at all. 

Following this line of thought wouldn't the accused **** want to kill everyone who isnt a mage, since a mage is genetically superior to normal people

[Wydi]

Kazzorswan wrote...

No in the game you don't side with blood mages which are the sith in my analogy. The jedi have been held captive by the chantry. What I'm sayin is templars are like "if you were a blood mage we'de be in trouble", then they brutally torrment good mages who say "maybe I'll stand a chance if I become a bloodmage and the templars with fear me".
Really, its a endless circle of futility so to speak

Good point.
That's why I wanted to have a calm option, something in between.
Both sides have some valid arguments and both of them are right and wrong at the same time.
In my opinion, mages should be controlled - but loosely controlled, leaving them most of their freedom by only observing them, without the need to put them in a tower.
I really missed such an option. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

as long as I can kill Anders I'll side with whoever

[Wydi]

Ollys wrote...

Right or bad, but check Star Wars example from op-post. Yesterday's jedi became a sith-emperor and now some force-user rule over all galaxy. It not about good and evil. Strong always rule over weak.
And heres no today civil rights - Thedas is harch and grim medieval world.

Star Wars is..Star Wars, after all.
Sith aren't invincible and so aren't Mages. 

But the more important thing is:
You will never be able to find and kill all mages. In "today's" Thedas, parents tend to send their magically talented children to the Circle by their own will, but when this means the certain death to their beloved children, who could blame them for hiding it?
Thus, the childs will never learn to control their powers and will more likely become tyrants, full of hatred for the church, the templars and any power behind them. 

[Ollys]

Wydi wrote...

Sith aren't invincible and so aren't Mages.

And founders of all european medieval nations were just a humans. Normans have come to England and began to rule over local peasants, simple because they have more soldiers and better weapon.
And what would be, if they possessed paranormal powers? If you have biggest club, then you have biggest power.
And mages have more power by default.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 août 2011 - 07:13 .

[happy_daiz]

I'm still waiting for the part where my mind will be changed.

I side with templars whenever it's appropriate to my Hawke...which is most of the time.

[Sundance31us]

happy_daiz wrote...

I'm still waiting for the part where my mind will be changed.

I side with templars whenever it's appropriate to my Hawke...which is most of the time.

Same here. There's nothing quite a satifying as playing a mage Hawke who sides with the Templars.

[Wydi]

Ollys wrote...

And founders of all european medieval nations were just a humans. Normans have come to England and began to rule over local peasants, simple because they have more soldiers and better weapon.
And what would be, if they possessed paranormal powers? If you have biggest club, then you have biggest power.
And mages have more power by default.

So what exactly distinguishes a mage tyrant from a normal one? 
He has more power, that's all.
Following your "The strong always rule over the weak" law, the death of the mages won't change anything, since there are always stronger people as long as at least 2 of them exist.
If it weren't the mages that ruled in Tevinter, it might possibly be a King.
It doesn't matter if the ruler is a mage or not, because it gives you no indication of how hard his rulership is and how good he is to his people.
It might work well as in Ferelden, where people are somewhat free, or it might go wrong as in Tevinter.
Darwin's law applies to everyone, not just mages and Sith, so you can never justify your deeds with it. 

People might have some hard times trying to behead a mighty mage ruler and it might be easier to depose a weak ruler, but in the end, the circle of life repeats. 

[Agamo45]

I always side with the Templars because it's the only ending that makes a lick of sense. The mage ending is a complete cluster**** of fallacies. It's like BW forgot to write the mage ending so they just made it almost exactly the same as the templar one, just with different dialogue.

[happy_daiz]

Sundance31us wrote...

Same here. There's nothing quite a satifying as playing a mage Hawke who sides with the Templars.

I'm with you. I love that scenario. I've done that a couple of times, now, but I usually play as a rogue, so it doesn't have quite the impact for me.

[Ollys]

Wydi wrote...

So what exactly distinguishes a mage tyrant from a normal one? 
He has more power, that's all.
Following your "The strong always rule over the weak" law, the death of the mages won't change anything, since there are always stronger people as long as at least 2 of them exist.
If it weren't the mages that ruled in Tevinter, it might possibly be a King.
It doesn't matter if the ruler is a mage or not, because it gives you no indication of how hard his rulership is and how good he is to his people.
It might work well as in Ferelden, where people are somewhat free, or it might go wrong as in Tevinter.
Darwin's law applies to everyone, not just mages and Sith, so you can never justify your deeds with it. 

People might have some hard times trying to behead a mighty mage ruler and it might be easier to depose a weak ruler, but in the end, the circle of life repeats. 

Yes Darwins Law applies for everyone, thats why mage/human conflict is inevitable.
Our ancestors have exterminated ******-Neanderthals just because If two competing spicies meet face to face one of them prevale.if one of us can cast fire from hands he will and if other can oppress him with brute force he will do that.  And one of them will prevale.
The tyrant-king can inherit the kind governor but nobody will change life of those who not a full part of society without reason.  For example englishmens have received a Great Charter after successfully risen of barons and russian peasants remained not free to almost twentieth century because they government was too strong and any revolt has been doomed.
Magocracy should have extraordinary stability because the strong ruler who can burn you with fireball is stronger
than simply strong ruler without additional forces. And people in such society should remain slaves because there is no reason to give freedom & rights to those who can't take it from you by brute force - The strong always rule over the weak after all.
But if humans want be strong they should to oppress potential threat, smash them before they have risen. So oppress or be oppressed.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 août 2011 - 09:02 .

[Kazzorswan]

Just to add something thats been floating in my head. The mages really need to regulate themselves. Some kind of internal affairs. They also need to journey into the fade and teach new recruits the dangers of demons. There is too much taboo around blood magic, if the mages truly understood it then they would know the dangers. But the TEMPLARS would swoop in and cull the mages for teaching blood magic (even though their teaching to prevent against it) and as we all know "swooping is bad". That is why the templars are the problem rather then the mages, if the templars took the stick out of their ass and allowed the mages to understand their magic it would eventually stabalize into a climate where mages can control their desires and such.

[Nerdage]

The whole point of the mages versus templars conflict is that there's no clear-cut 'right', it was written that way, so you're not going to logically prove one side is the right one, it's just a question of personal judgement. I'm adamantly pro-mage, but I can see the chantry's reasoning, and I don't really see how anything in the OP answers those reasons.

A blood mage can control another's mind, with that they have the potential to do almost anything, and any mage has the potential to use blood magic. The only way to truly contain a threat like that is to control all the mages. They can still be used when they're controlled, the chantry has used the circles as a fighting force before (with the Qunari), and their potential danger to the rest of the world is greatly reduced in the circles. To let them loose would mean losing both a powerful resource/ally and endangering the rest of the world.

So to work that into the Star Wars analogy, wouldn't it be better if all force users were controlled be the republic? Those who turn to the dark side could be dealt with before they become a threat to the galaxy, but jedi could still be trained to defend the republic.

I still don't support the Chantry, but you'd have to answer those issues before you could say the mages are the logical 'right' choice, otherwise both sides have reason.

Modifié par nerdage, 01 août 2011 - 09:25 .