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[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then why do we hear the same whispering Darkspawn hear in the battle with Meredith, indicating the lyrium idol from the thaig that predates the First blight (and predates the Dwarves themselves as they started to lose their kingdom during the first Blight) has a connection to the Darkspawn?

That doesn't technically indicate your conclusion at all.  All it states is that the lyrium is possibly linked to Darkspawn. It could have simply be reuse of a sound effect.  I mean you call Cory a magister when he can whisper to people.  You state he isn't attached to Darkspawn, the calling, or being the first Darkspawn when he can control anything carrying the taint, something only Archdemons/Old Gods can do.

And by the way. . .the Dwarves were losing their kingdom to Darkspawn, not red lyrium.

Until Bioware actually dates the Ancient Thaig, well. . .I dunno.  For all we know (to jump to conclusions) the Tevinters created the Darkspawn, couldn't control them, and dumped them in the deep roads for the Dwarves to deal with.  I have trouble believing that the Tevinters, who have history of the truth, would not state that Darkspawn predated them.  Why wouldn't they?  Fear alone?  They already hold fear over Thedas from being a mage oligarchy.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[dragonflight288]

Let's not turn Darkspawn into the Zerg so hastily. There are absolutely no records of darkspawn that predates the dwarves records. And I highly doubt the Tevinter could smuggle darkspawn to the lowest reaches of the deep roads at the height of the dwarven empire.

[Harid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Let's not turn Darkspawn into the Zerg so hastily. There are absolutely no records of darkspawn that predates the dwarves records. And I highly doubt the Tevinter could smuggle darkspawn to the lowest reaches of the deep roads at the height of the dwarven empire.

The Darkspawn pretty much are the Zerg, as that is their tactics in warfare.

And they could have easily.  Just because the Dwarves ran the Deep Roads does not mean they held dominion over every edge of it.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not to mention Varic and Bartrand both claim to hear a song from the idol. In Awakening, the Mother constantly lamented no longer being able to hear the song.

yup there's that too.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not to mention Varic and Bartrand both claim to hear a song from the idol. In Awakening, the Mother constantly lamented no longer being able to hear the song.

yup there's that too.

That song didn't send them to the Deep Roads.  It simply made them crazy.  And before you quote the Mother, well, there were a load of Disciples that did not miss the song at all.

That doesn't tie anything together with the Darkspawn at all, technically.

That red lyrium was simply a plot device to make Meredith an 'epic' last boss.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 04:37 .

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...


That doesn't technically indicate your conclusion at all.  All it states is that the lyrium is possibly linked to Darkspawn. It could have simply be reuse of a sound effect.  I mean you call Cory a magister when he can whisper to people.  You state he isn't attached to Darkspawn, the calling, or being the first Darkspawn when he can control anything carrying the taint, something only Archdemons/Old Gods can do.

It states that the Primeval Thaig, which has red lyrium in abundance if you look at the pillars, and its dwarves are connected to the Darkspawn in some way.

I call Corypheus a Magister-turned-Awakened Darkspawn who can't hear the call of the Old Gods like the mindless Darkspawn can, but is able to control mindless Darkspawn. The Architect's research was about freeing the Darkspawn from the call of the Old Gods, and the Mother (who can't hear the Old Gods anymore) and the Architect are able to exert control over Darkspawn. You don't have to hear the song to control them. But obviously, the Archdemon's influence is greater because he's the most powerful thing that can control them.

And by the way. . .the Dwarves were losing their kingdom to Darkspawn, not red lyrium.

Which as I said seems to be connected to the Darkspawn more than Corypheus and his drinking buddies decided to raid the wrong palace.

Until Bioware actually dates the Ancient Thaig, well. . .I dunno.  For all we know (to jump to conclusions) the Tevinters created the Darkspawn, couldn't control them, and dumped them in the deep roads for the Dwarves to deal with.  I have trouble believing that the Tevinters, who have history of the truth, would not state that Darkspawn predated them.  Why wouldn't they?  Fear alone?  They already hold fear over Thedas from being a mage oligarchy.

The Dwarves controlled all of the Deep Roads, and although they were in contact with the Imperium, the Tevinters bringing shipments of unknown creatures that they didn't want would draw suspicion.

Also, Darkspawn aren't just some scientific creation. The Black City has a link to the taint (as Avernus' notes mention and Corypheus implies that it was always Black). It's hard to recreate something like that artificially. Naturally, like the broodmothers do, yes. Artificially no, and not at Thedas' level of technology.

Hell for all we know the Kossith caused the Darkspawn and didn't know it. Certainly would explain the plot hole of Ogres in the First Blight when Kossith didn't land until many, many centuries later.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 04:50 .

[lobi]

Created, what like the Harvester?
Different histories for different sections of deep roads. Thaigs are more like countrys than cities.

Modifié par lobi, 05 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

Jaykus wrote...

And I suppose you 're the one to know how they hope it 'd come out? Counterpoint to what? To the OP's arguments relying on another scifi story to change my mind? Or those who spout absolute moral statements such as that no people should be treated in a certain way? Morality can be debated in the real world - that's what philosophy is for - let alone in a fantasy game where people are different thanks to magic and a perfectly valid case can be made for treating them diffferently.

I tend not to assume I know what the developers were aiming for - I take the world as it is, that's why I play fantasy games like dragon age.

You go right ahead with that.  The rest of us, who have seen a single dev post, advertisement for the game, or heard the name "Dragon Age" mentioned by someone we walked by at Circuit City, will continue to rest assured in the knowledge that the devs were trying to make these decisions moral grey areas.

If you think "people shouldn't be raped, beaten, and murdered for having the wrong DNA" is "spouting absolute moral statements" then you have some very, very serious problems.

Except that DOESN"t happen to EVERY mage and the Templars who do it are the minority in regards to the beating and raping and the killing doesn't happen till it's practacally a necessity*blood mages and abominations*

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It states that the Primeval Thaig, which has red lyrium in abundance, and its dwarves are connected to the Darkspawn in some way.

I call Corypheus a Magister-turned-Awakened Darkspawn who can't hear the call of the Old Gods like the mindless Darkspawn can, but is able to control mindless Darkspawn. The Architect's research was about freeing the Darkspawn from the call of the Old Gods, and the Mother, who can't hear the Old Gods anymore, and the Architect are able to exert control over Darkspawn. You don't have to hear the song to control them.

Which as I said seems to be connected to the Darkspawn more than Corypheus and his drinking buddies decided to raid the wrong palace.

The Dwarves controlled all of the Deep Roads, and although they were in contact with the Imperium, the Tevinters bringing shipments of unknown creatures that they didn't want would draw suspicion.

Also, Darkspawn aren't just some scientific creation. The Black City has a link to the taint. It's hard to recreate a scientific thing artificially. Naturally, like the broodmothers do, yes. Artificially no, and not at Thedas' level of technology.

Hell for all we know the Kossith caused the Darkspawn and didn't know it. Certainly would explain the plot hole of Ogres in the First Blight when Kossith didn't land until many, many centuries later.

It really doesn't.  It just states that the song the Red Lyrium has and the song the Old gods have are similar.  Coincidence making Dragon Age, and all, your words.  Their purposes are diametrically opposed.

I never stated Corypheus could hear the calling.  I stated that he and awakened Darkspawn have to have some level of communication with Old Gods for Dragon Age Awakening, as well as the revelation that the Architect created the fifth blight, to be plausible, as other options are completely comical.  I never stated they need the Calling to control Darkspawn, only that their control cannot be stronger than the calling, or Dragon Age Awakening, already considered canon, could not have occured.

What shipments?  We know the Dwarves did not have knowledge of every corner of the Deep Roads by virtue of the Ancient Thaig, and the fact that it's not in the Shaperate's memories.  It was only necessary to dump one undetected Broodmother into the Deep Roads to cause, well, everything that occured.  Do you know how many undetected fauna and flora go around this planet and flourish, without natural predators that you think that they would leave a paper trail for some reason?   Perhaps it's just me, but I've always seen the Darkspawn/Old God correlation to be directly linked to that of the Golden/Black City and the Magisters, as soon as you get close to it, you corrupt it.  As such, I don't see where you are getting shipments from, why the Tevinters would note it on ledgers, or where you see the Tevinters, who could not care less about anyone, would care about leaving an experiment to Dwarves they hold no allegiance to.  Like I 've stated, if the Imperium did not create Darkspawn, it would not only be part of their history but part of the surrounding neighbors of Tevinter via travel, it would get out unless the Imperium deems it neccessary to hide, and they have no good reason to.

I never stated the Darkspawn were a scientific creation. Only the Kossith seemingly study science.  I feel they are a magical creation, though, and given the unfettered control the Tevinters had over Thedas, what would stop them from taking magic to those levels, as they were already approaching being like Darkspawn come the First Blight anyway.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 05:04 .

[Rifneno]

Filament wrote...

My point was to make a distinction between a powerful mage and a mage with the powers of an old god or the Maker. Quibbling over the definition of 'superpowered' was not.

You make a very good point.  Look at how posters around here even think mages are comparible to nuclear bombs.  Power tends to get exaggerated.  Still, she did manage to bring down the most powerful empire the world has ever seen.  Blight ravaged or not, that's impressive for some random barbarian.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hell for all we know the Kossith caused the Darkspawn and didn't know it. Certainly would explain the plot hole of Ogres in the First Blight when Kossith didn't land until many, many centuries later.

I've considered that too, but I didn't want to end up debating with the Qun lovers.  Again.  I mostly considered it because the way they treat their mages...  Something very horrific happened with Qunari mages in the past.  It could just have been a bunch of abominations, but...  it still seems they go way overboard, especially considering they hate to waste anything and they're wasting an incredible resource.

Overall, I have this to say about the Qunari...  Never trust someone that horny.  

[CrimsonZephyr]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Jaykus wrote...

And I suppose you 're the one to know how they hope it 'd come out? Counterpoint to what? To the OP's arguments relying on another scifi story to change my mind? Or those who spout absolute moral statements such as that no people should be treated in a certain way? Morality can be debated in the real world - that's what philosophy is for - let alone in a fantasy game where people are different thanks to magic and a perfectly valid case can be made for treating them diffferently.

I tend not to assume I know what the developers were aiming for - I take the world as it is, that's why I play fantasy games like dragon age.

You go right ahead with that.  The rest of us, who have seen a single dev post, advertisement for the game, or heard the name "Dragon Age" mentioned by someone we walked by at Circuit City, will continue to rest assured in the knowledge that the devs were trying to make these decisions moral grey areas.

If you think "people shouldn't be raped, beaten, and murdered for having the wrong DNA" is "spouting absolute moral statements" then you have some very, very serious problems.

Except that DOESN"t happen to EVERY mage and the Templars who do it are the minority in regards to the beating and raping and the killing doesn't happen till it's practacally a necessity*blood mages and abominations*

Notice, however, that no character outside of Anders and possibly Hawke actually repudiates the Tranquil Solution. Simply saying "no" could mean anything from "absolutely not, and you should be ashamed for suggesting it" to "right now isn't the time, but the thanks for suggesting." Even Cullen and Elthina tried to rationalize the plan to lobotomize every mage in Thedas - not every blood mage, or every demon consorter, every mage. They never said they didn't support it. They were more concerned that you know about it. In other words, they're more concerned about the intelligence leak than the actually morality and ethics surrounding such a plan. Sure, not every Templar is a rapist, but the good templars didn't really do much to stop them. Evil triumphs because good men do nothing, and whoever was good in the Chantry and Order certainly did nothing while the darker elements ran roughshod over Kirkwall.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 05 août 2011 - 05:18 .

[Harid]

Them being concerned about an intelligence leak doesn't state anything about their character, as you are nobody to them when you tell them of your knowledge of secret Templar plans that are technicially none of your business.

And I would figure that I dunno, Meredith, and the Divine rejecting this plan means they somehow agreed with it, right.  Please stop using the Tranquil Solution as some sort of slight against Templars when Templars as a whole did not support the plan.  It's disingenous at best.

I mean, based on that logic, I can state that all mages believe in slavery and Blood magic because the Tevinter Imperium does.

All mages do not believe this, just like all Templars, and as far as we know, a majority of them do not believe in the Tranquil Solution.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 05:25 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

It doesn't matter that they were controlling armies of Darkspawn.  It doesn't mean that their control is stronger than the Calling, which it cannot be given the creation of the Mother in the first place, i.e. if the Architects control was stronger than the calling, he would not have an Awakened Broodmother fighting against him in the first place.

The Architect wasn't trying to control them.  He merely freed them from the compulsion to follow the song of the old gods.  The Mother went crazy when deprived of the song and fought against the one who silenced it for her.  The Architect's whole point was to free the darkspawn to live as beings of free will, not to put them under his own sway.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

Them being concerned about an intelligence leak doesn't state anything about their character, as you are nobody to them when you tell them of your knowledge of secret Templar plans that are technicially none of your business.

And I would figure that I dunno, Meredith, and the Divine rejecting this plan means they somehow agreed with it, right.  Please stop using the Tranquil Solution as some sort of slight against Templars when Templars as a whole did not support the plan.  It's disingenous at best.

I mean, based on that logic, I can state that all mages believe in slavery and Blood magic because the Tevinter Imperium does.

All mages do not believe this, just like all Templars, and as far as we know, a majority of them do not believe in the Tranquil Solution.

Nor did any among the Templars seek out the one who proposed it and remove him from duty.  Hawke had to catch him in the act and slaughter him since apparently what he was up to wasn't upsetting enough to the powers that be in the Chanty to remove him from a position where he could implement his plan without their consent.

There was a responsibility to not just say no to the man, but actually be sure he wasn't up to no good.  That they thought someone who would propose such a thing should then carry on as jailor to the folks who wanted to turn into mindless sex slaves does indeed reflect extremely badly on them.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

It doesn't matter that they were controlling armies of Darkspawn.  It doesn't mean that their control is stronger than the Calling, which it cannot be given the creation of the Mother in the first place, i.e. if the Architects control was stronger than the calling, he would not have an Awakened Broodmother fighting against him in the first place.

The Architect wasn't trying to control them.  He merely freed them from the compulsion to follow the song of the old gods.  The Mother went crazy when deprived of the song and fought against the one who silenced it for her.  The Architect's whole point was to free the darkspawn to live as beings of free will, not to put them under his own sway.

The Architect wanted to turn the entire waking world into Ghouls.  I have trouble believing he doesn't hold a semblance of control over Darkspawn given the initial fight over Vigil Keep, as well as his bleeding of Grey Wardens for his joining, as well as the corrupted Dragons he turns on you, as well as the fact that he doesn't keep his word iof you spare him given Nathaniel, and all the other things he does that contradicts the words coming out of his mouth but sure, if you believe him, it's nice to think that way.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

Them being concerned about an intelligence leak doesn't state anything about their character, as you are nobody to them when you tell them of your knowledge of secret Templar plans that are technicially none of your business.

And I would figure that I dunno, Meredith, and the Divine rejecting this plan means they somehow agreed with it, right.  Please stop using the Tranquil Solution as some sort of slight against Templars when Templars as a whole did not support the plan.  It's disingenous at best.

Not going through with it =/= not supporting it. Think about every radical right-wing or left-wing extremist. A lot of them support very drastic measures against groups they despise. Not all of them go through with them. Why? It's politically inconvenient, they don't have the resources, they don't want to waste resources, etc. That doesn't mean they necessarily object to it on moral grounds.

Also, the idea that Meredith and the Divine saw his insane plan, rejected it, but then kept him on duty speaks volumes about their character. It's like a police officer saying he wants to create a task force to kill all black people because black people sell drugs, but the chief says "no" and sends him on his way to continue his business. No mention of the fact that the plan is utterly unworkable, utterly insane, and morally reprehensible. Surely, if they said "no," the person in question wouldn't go through with it. Surely this utterly insane plan is just a one-off thing. He's totally mentally stable and capable of being a responsible man.

And when you bring the plan to their attention, you are one of the few noblemen in the city with a direct line to the Viscount's office, which makes you one of the top people in the city. Not the Champion, certainly, but certainly one of the high men of Kirkwall, and certainly not a nobody.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

Them being concerned about an intelligence leak doesn't state anything about their character, as you are nobody to them when you tell them of your knowledge of secret Templar plans that are technicially none of your business.

And I would figure that I dunno, Meredith, and the Divine rejecting this plan means they somehow agreed with it, right.  Please stop using the Tranquil Solution as some sort of slight against Templars when Templars as a whole did not support the plan.  It's disingenous at best.

I mean, based on that logic, I can state that all mages believe in slavery and Blood magic because the Tevinter Imperium does.

All mages do not believe this, just like all Templars, and as far as we know, a majority of them do not believe in the Tranquil Solution.

Nor did any among the Templars seek out the one who proposed it and remove him from duty.  Hawke had to catch him in the act and slaughter him since apparently what he was up to wasn't upsetting enough to the powers that be in the Chanty to remove him from a position where he could implement his plan without their consent.

There was a responsibility to not just say no to the man, but actually be sure he wasn't up to no good.  That they thought someone who would propose such a thing should then carry on as jailor to the folks who wanted to turn into mindless sex slaves does indeed reflect extremely badly on them.

Does having a practicing Blood Mage as First Enchanter reflect poorly on Kirkwall Mages? Or is this a Chantry only thing we have going here?

Note that I am not stating that the Templars are without faults, but you can't have it both ways (i.e. ignore the faults of
Kirkwall Mages, but not of Kirkwall Templars) unless you don't mind being a massive hypocrite.

If your boss is sexually harrassing an employee, do you invoke awesome citizen arrest powers to take him down, or something?  Every hierarchial force will have corruption, and while he should have, and is stopped, the fact that you want people to do things that may be beyond their power is a bit naive.  For example, at my old job, we had a boss that would show up late every day, routinely flirted with women uninterested with him and cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, and it literally took 9+ years for the job to get rid of the guy.  There are things that keep people in those positions in power and those people will exist in every hierachial system on our earth and certainly in Thedas.  As for keeping Alrik around, everyone in the game was largely incompetant, Hawke included, and I hold it against Bioware more that I hold it against a specific character personally for slipping when it comes to writing.  I mean, look at the video on youtube when you rat out Anders for Andraste's Sake.

But like I've stated before, it doesn't show evil intent, it just shows incompetance keeping Alrik around in the first place.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 05:42 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

The Architect wanted to turn the entire waking world into Ghouls.  I have trouble believing he doesn't hold a semblance of control over Darkspawn given the initial fight over Vigil Keep, as well as his bleeding of Grey Wardens for his joining, as well as the corrupted Dragons he turns on you, as well as the fact that he doesn't keep his word iof you spare him given Nathaniel, and all the other things he does that contradicts the words coming out of his mouth but sure, if you believe him, it's nice to think that way.

I believe that part of what he says because he doesn't act to contradict it and the evidence in game supports it.  As you say, he obviously doesn't control the Mother, and yet she tells us that she no longer hears the song.  So, it isn't that the song is a more powerful control than the Architect, it is that neither of them is controlling her.  She wants the song back and strikes out at the one who cut her off from it. 

The Architect has influence over them, but I don't believe he has control over them through the taint or mind control or anything.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

Them being concerned about an intelligence leak doesn't state anything about their character, as you are nobody to them when you tell them of your knowledge of secret Templar plans that are technicially none of your business.

And I would figure that I dunno, Meredith, and the Divine rejecting this plan means they somehow agreed with it, right.  Please stop using the Tranquil Solution as some sort of slight against Templars when Templars as a whole did not support the plan.  It's disingenous at best.

I mean, based on that logic, I can state that all mages believe in slavery and Blood magic because the Tevinter Imperium does.

All mages do not believe this, just like all Templars, and as far as we know, a majority of them do not believe in the Tranquil Solution.

Nor did any among the Templars seek out the one who proposed it and remove him from duty.  Hawke had to catch him in the act and slaughter him since apparently what he was up to wasn't upsetting enough to the powers that be in the Chanty to remove him from a position where he could implement his plan without their consent.

There was a responsibility to not just say no to the man, but actually be sure he wasn't up to no good.  That they thought someone who would propose such a thing should then carry on as jailor to the folks who wanted to turn into mindless sex slaves does indeed reflect extremely badly on them.

Does having a practicing Blood Mage as First Enchanter reflect
poorly on Kirkwall Mages? Or is this a Chantry only thing we have going
here?

Note that I am not stating that the Templars are without
faults, but you can't have it both ways (i.e. ignore the faults of
Kirkwall Mages, but not of Kirkwall Templars) unless you don't mind being a massive hypocrite.

If your boss is sexually harrassing an employee, do you invoke awesome citizen arrest powers to take him down, or something?  Every hierarchial force will have corruption, and while he should have, and is stopped, the fact that you want people to do things that may be beyond their power is a bit naive.

But like I've stated before, it doesn't show evil intent, it just shows incompetance keeping Alrik around in the first place.

No, no, I'll admit that mages have been gravely at fault too. Blood magic might not be inherently evil, but societal norms and the real dangers associated with it require its banning. Those who break the law should be punished.

But since when did enforcing the law involve looking the other way while a rapist abused vulnerable people under his watch? As for a citizen's arrest, if that were even possible in Kirkwall...It's obvious the Templars have no concept of an internal affairs division. The Seekers come close, but they do almost nothing, and they largely turn a blind eye to the Templars' abuses.

Alrik was a subordinate of Meredith. Meredith is sworn to uphold the laws of the Chantry. One of them is that Harrowed mages are not to be made Tranquil. I hope it doesn't need to be stated that using Tranquil mages as sex slaves is also, in fact, illegal. Had Meredith been working to that end, Alrik would have been removed from command.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

The Architect wanted to turn the entire waking world into Ghouls.  I have trouble believing he doesn't hold a semblance of control over Darkspawn given the initial fight over Vigil Keep, as well as his bleeding of Grey Wardens for his joining, as well as the corrupted Dragons he turns on you, as well as the fact that he doesn't keep his word iof you spare him given Nathaniel, and all the other things he does that contradicts the words coming out of his mouth but sure, if you believe him, it's nice to think that way.

I believe that part of what he says because he doesn't act to contradict it and the evidence in game supports it.  As you say, he obviously doesn't control the Mother, and yet she tells us that she no longer hears the song.  So, it isn't that the song is a more powerful control than the Architect, it is that neither of them is controlling her.  She wants the song back and strikes out at the one who cut her off from it. 

The Architect has influence over them, but I don't believe he has control over them through the taint or mind control or anything.

It's already been stated that Disciples can control regular Darkspawn, logic dictates their 'father' could then control them as well given he gets many Darkspawn to do his bidding when they don't really need to.

I mean he controlled people in The Calling as well, until they broke free of it.

I'm pretty sure it was in Awakening, but seeing as how the game is stuck in my bricked PS3, I can't check it.

[Plaintiff]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

Them being concerned about an intelligence leak doesn't state anything about their character, as you are nobody to them when you tell them of your knowledge of secret Templar plans that are technicially none of your business.

And I would figure that I dunno, Meredith, and the Divine rejecting this plan means they somehow agreed with it, right.  Please stop using the Tranquil Solution as some sort of slight against Templars when Templars as a whole did not support the plan.  It's disingenous at best.

I mean, based on that logic, I can state that all mages believe in slavery and Blood magic because the Tevinter Imperium does.

All mages do not believe this, just like all Templars, and as far as we know, a majority of them do not believe in the Tranquil Solution.

Nor did any among the Templars seek out the one who proposed it and remove him from duty.  Hawke had to catch him in the act and slaughter him since apparently what he was up to wasn't upsetting enough to the powers that be in the Chanty to remove him from a position where he could implement his plan without their consent.

There was a responsibility to not just say no to the man, but actually be sure he wasn't up to no good.  That they thought someone who would propose such a thing should then carry on as jailor to the folks who wanted to turn into mindless sex slaves does indeed reflect extremely badly on them.

Does having a practicing Blood Mage as First Enchanter reflect poorly on Kirkwall Mages? Or is this a Chantry only thing we have going here?

Note that I am not stating that the Templars are without faults, but you can't have it both ways (i.e. ignore the faults of
Kirkwall Mages, but not of Kirkwall Templars) unless you don't mind being a massive hypocrite.

If your boss is sexually harrassing an employee, do you invoke awesome citizen arrest powers to take him down, or something?  Every hierarchial force will have corruption, and while he should have, and is stopped, the fact that you want people to do things that may be beyond their power is a bit naive.

But like I've stated before, it doesn't show evil intent, it just shows incompetance keeping Alrik around in the first place.

Remember the part where nobody knew Orsino was a blood mage (assuming one known instance of blood magic is sufficient to brand someone forever)? There is no evidence that Orsino used blood magic prior to his transformation. If he did, then it was in secret. You can't punish someone for something when you don't have even the slightest clue that they actually did it.

Meredith and Elthina, on the other hand, are well within their rights and capabilities to have Alrik investigated and puinished, being that they, you know, control the templars and have a letter where he as good as confesses that he's an utter whackjob.

As for your workplace sexual harassment example: the human resources department in any big company has internal legal consultants for exactly that sort of situation. And there's all sorts of external legal recourse options you can take too.

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

No, no, I'll admit that mages have been gravely at fault too. Blood magic might not be inherently evil, but societal norms and the real dangers associated with it require its banning. Those who break the law should be punished.

But since when did enforcing the law involve looking the other way while a rapist abused vulnerable people under his watch? As for a citizen's arrest, if that were even possible in Kirkwall...It's obvious the Templars have no concept of an internal affairs division. The Seekers come close, but they do almost nothing, and they largely turn a blind eye to the Templars' abuses.

Alrik was a subordinate of Meredith. Meredith is sworn to uphold the laws of the Chantry. One of them is that Harrowed mages are not to be made Tranquil. I hope it doesn't need to be stated that using Tranquil mages as sex slaves is also, in fact, illegal. Had Meredith been working to that end, Alrik would have been removed from command.

I am not certain other Templars know of his abuses.  Do you have in game quotes to that effect?

But like I stated, every hierachial position will have corruption amungst it's ranks.  As far as we know, we have no proof that Meredith has knowledge that Alrik is tranquiling post Harrowing mages.  If you have in game proof, I'd like to hear it, becasue I don't remember any.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 05:55 .

[Harid]

Plaintiff wrote...


Remember the part where nobody knew Orsino was a blood mage (assuming one known instance of blood magic is sufficient to brand someone forever)? There is no evidence that Orsino used blood magic prior to his transformation. If he did, then it was in secret. You can't punish someone for something when you don't have even the slightest clue that they actually did it.

Meredith and Elthina, on the other hand, are well within their rights and capabilities to have Alrik investigated and puinished, being that they, you know, control the templars and have a letter where he as good as confesses that he's an utter whackjob.

As for your workplace sexual harassment example: the human resources department in any big company has internal legal consultants for exactly that sort of situation. And there's all sorts of external legal recourse options you can take too.

Hawke did (knew Orsino was practcing Blood Magic/Necromancy)  he had no proof, though.  But of course, Hawke does nothing during the game that s/he doesn't stumble into, so whatever.  It kind of ties into my point about corruption, though.  Who policies the Enchanters given how Orsino could practice Blood Magic in Secrecy?

As for your last quote, it took them 9 years to remove him.  Which I supposed leads to my point of we don't know how long it takes for a Templar to be removed, because of abuse of power, if it even happens given the power they have in Kirkwall.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 05:57 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
Does having a practicing Blood Mage as First Enchanter reflect poorly on Kirkwall Mages? Or is this a Chantry only thing we have going here?

Aside from the fact that we don't really know if he was a practicing blood mage at any point in the story up until the very end...  If it was obvious to the other mages what Orsino was up to, if Orsino put out a plan for the mages to vote whether they should all take up blood magic and no one thought to do anything about it, then yes, that would reflect poorly.  There is no evidence that anyone knew about Orsino, and thus had any obligation to thwart him.

If your boss is sexually harrassing an employee, do you invoke awesome citizen arrest powers to take him down, or something?

Your analogy fails because it was a subordinate who went to the bosses with the crazy plan.  We're not asking some poor low ranking Templar recruit to take on the big bad superior officer.  We're asking the Knight Commander and the Grand Cleric to do their freaking jobs.

But like I've stated before, it doesn't show evil intent, it just shows incompetance keeping Alrik around in the first place.

When you have the power and the responsibility to prevent an atrocity and you just ignore it that is evil.  They knew about it, they had the power to stop him and they did nothing.  That is worse than incompetance.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
Does having a practicing Blood Mage as First Enchanter reflect poorly on Kirkwall Mages? Or is this a Chantry only thing we have going here?

Aside from the fact that we don't really know if he was a practicing blood mage at any point in the story up until the very end...  If it was obvious to the other mages what Orsino was up to, if Orsino put out a plan for the mages to vote whether they should all take up blood magic and no one thought to do anything about it, then yes, that would reflect poorly.  There is no evidence that anyone knew about Orsino, and thus had any obligation to thwart him.

If your boss is sexually harrassing an employee, do you invoke awesome citizen arrest powers to take him down, or something?

Your analogy fails because it was a subordinate who went to the bosses with the crazy plan.  We're not asking some poor low ranking Templar recruit to take on the big bad superior officer.  We're asking the Knight Commander and the Grand Cleric to do their freaking jobs.

But like I've stated before, it doesn't show evil intent, it just shows incompetance keeping Alrik around in the first place.

When you have the power and the responsibility to prevent an atrocity and you just ignore it that is evil.  They knew about it, they had the power to stop him and they did nothing.  That is worse than incompetance.

1) We know.  He was the person in contact with Quentin.  He admits it himself.  If you want to beleive he pulled this complicated research out of his ass from photographic memory then I am done talking to you.
2) Prove to me they know of the rape or it gets scribbled under incompetance at best.
3) People ignore atrocites worldwide.  How much money have you donated to the crisis in Darfur?  Are you posting from your laptop from Wifi in the Sudan?  Don't give me that sanctimonious ****, people ignore atrocities all of the time when they are not affected.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 06:04 .