404 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
As for your last quote, it took them 9 years to remove him.  Which I supposed leads to my point of we don't know how long it takes for a Templar to be removed, because of abuse of power, if it even happens given the power they have in Kirkwall.

The Templars appeared quite capable of throwing Samson out on his behind for carrying letters from a mage to her family.  They were prepared to throw Keran out after his brush with Tarohne.

Obviously these people can and do punish what they are actually worried about.  Raping and Tranquiling just doesn't bother them apparently.

[Harid]

Keran was a recruit, and we don't know how long it took for them to Boot Samson out on his ass.

But we go in circles.  Let's say I agree with you.

We don't know if Samson and Alrik were on the same level in the order, we don't know what else Samson may have did prior to being expelled, we hear no other side of the story.

And you can get him reinstated anyway.  I guess helping mages escape is no big deal to them either, right!

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 06:08 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

1) We know.  He was the person in contact with Quentin.  He admits it himself.  If you want to beleive he pulled this complicated research out of his ass from photographic memory then I am done talking to you.
2) Prove to me they know of the rape or it gets scribbled under incompetance at best.
3) People ignore atrocites worldwide.  How much money have you donated to the crisis in Darfur?  Are you posting from your laptop from Wifi in the Sudan?  Don't give me that sanctimonious ****, people ignore atrocities all of the time when they are not affected.

Yes, he admits it at the end when he feels he has nothing to lose.  I've already said that if anyone knew about it they should have acted.  The fact that he admits it to Hawke at the end doesn't mean anyone else ever knew and had a chance to stop him.

Well, if Hawke as an outsider knew, then anyone inside who didn't know was trying not to.  Really, the Gallows is a prison.  Someone would hear something. 

If I were the Sergeant responsible for a soldier who was commiting those attrocities then I'd be evil to let them continue once I knew.  Getting furious with me over something I didn't say is just silly.  If I had said the butcher at the shop down the block from the Chantry was evil for not stopping it then you could call me sanctimonious.  Geez.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

1) We know.  He was the person in contact with Quentin.  He admits it himself.  If you want to beleive he pulled this complicated research out of his ass from photographic memory then I am done talking to you.
2) Prove to me they know of the rape or it gets scribbled under incompetance at best.
3) People ignore atrocites worldwide.  How much money have you donated to the crisis in Darfur?  Are you posting from your laptop from Wifi in the Sudan?  Don't give me that sanctimonious ****, people ignore atrocities all of the time when they are not affected.

Yes, he admits it at the end when he feels he has nothing to lose.  I've already said that if anyone knew about it they should have acted.  The fact that he admits it to Hawke at the end doesn't mean anyone else ever knew and had a chance to stop him.

Well, if Hawke as an outsider knew, then anyone inside who didn't know was trying not to.  Really, the Gallows is a prison.  Someone would hear something. 

If I were the Sergeant responsible for a soldier who was commiting those attrocities then I'd be evil to let them continue once I knew.  Getting furious with me over something I didn't say is just silly.  If I had said the butcher at the shop down the block from the Chantry was evil for not stopping it then you could call me sanctimonious.  Geez.

While I agree with you, I cannot find fault in the opposite to that, say, you know your Sargeant is doing wrong but you cannot do anything over fear of your job or your life.  This is why I call you santimonious, in some cases, ratting out your CO will get you killed or horribly demoted.  Look at say rape in the US Army.  This is an unfortunate effect of hierachical systems, and is something that actively needs to be changed, but I am not going to fault a soldier for following orders.

And maybe it's just me but I was not under the impression Alrik was some low ranking Templar.  The fact that he's proposing ideas to the Divine states to me that he was someone pretty high up in the Order.

Someone have any proof that Meredith was aware of what Alrik was doing, though?  I really do not remember any.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

While I agree with you, I cannot find fault in the opposite to that, say, you know your Sargeant is doing wrong but you cannot do anything over fear of your job or your life.  This is an unfortunate effect of hierachical systems, and is something that actively needs to be changed, but I am not going to fault a soldier for following orders.

And maybe it's just me but I was not under the impressing Alrik was some low ranking Templar.

But it isn't some poor slob at the bottom of the ranks who was told, in writing, that Alrik wants to Tranquil all the mages.  It was the Knight Commander and the Grand Cleric.  These people have few equals in the realm and even fewer superiors.

Those people have power and responsibility and still do nothing.  This is not fear of reprisal.  This is utter disdain for the welfare of the mages in their care.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

While I agree with you, I cannot find fault in the opposite to that, say, you know your Sargeant is doing wrong but you cannot do anything over fear of your job or your life.  This is an unfortunate effect of hierachical systems, and is something that actively needs to be changed, but I am not going to fault a soldier for following orders.

And maybe it's just me but I was not under the impressing Alrik was some low ranking Templar.

But it isn't some poor slob at the bottom of the ranks who was told, in writing, that Alrik wants to Tranquil all the mages.  It was the Knight Commander and the Grand Cleric.  These people have few equals in the realm and even fewer superiors.

Those people have power and responsibility and still do nothing.  This is not fear of reprisal.  This is utter disdain for the welfare of the mages in their care.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Without proof that Meredith or the Divine had knowledge that Alrik was tranquiling mages anyway (the game denotes that he is doing it behind both of their backs), I file this under incompetance at worst.

I will recind my point if someone can prove to me that The Divine or Meredith know Alrik is secretly Tranquiling mages.  I will file it under the thin veil of Bioware writing incorrigable monsters.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 06:21 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
Someone have any proof that Meredith was aware of what Alrik was doing, though?  I really do not remember any.

The mere fact that Meredith and Elthina knew he wanted to Tranquil the mages should have been enough to put him on kitchen duty or something at the least.  It should have opened up an investigation into his activities.  They should have ferreted out the Templar who wanted to tell Meredith about Tranquiling Karl.

The Chantry claims to protect the people from the mages by providing the mages a safe place to learn and practice their skills.  Either they mean that, and they are merely oppressive, or they mean, "we'll take the mages prisoner and do whatever we please with them" in which case they're outright evil.

[GavrielKay]

Remember, the Tranquil solution wasn't some outlandish complaint against Alrik by a whiny mage, it was Alrik's own words. His proposal. Someone who would dream that up and think it a good enough idea to present it to his superiors really should be investigated and not left in a position of power over those folks.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
Someone have any proof that Meredith was aware of what Alrik was doing, though?  I really do not remember any.

The mere fact that Meredith and Elthina knew he wanted to Tranquil the mages should have been enough to put him on kitchen duty or something at the least.  It should have opened up an investigation into his activities.  They should have ferreted out the Templar who wanted to tell Meredith about Tranquiling Karl.

The Chantry claims to protect the people from the mages by providing the mages a safe place to learn and practice their skills.  Either they mean that, and they are merely oppressive, or they mean, "we'll take the mages prisoner and do whatever we please with them" in which case they're outright evil.

But you cannot make absolute points like this.  Especially given the Fereldan Circle, Gregiour had full right to Anull every mage in that circle, even after the Warden rolls through it and does not, because every circle has different leadership, and those different leaders will treat mages and Templars differently.

Which leads to my point of the mage rebellion being stupid, which is of course, another argument for another day.

As for your point about abhorrant ideas and being kept in power, I can quote dozens of people who kept their jobs in the US that actually carried through their abhorrant plans with ease.  As I stated before, people don't care when they aren't directly affected.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 06:27 .

[dragonflight288]

Actually Gregoire didn't have the right. He had to send word to the Grand Cleric for permission and reinforcements.

As for the Tranquil solution, let me put it simply. In Act 1, if you loot the body of the templar lieutenant before the battle is over, you get a letter written by Alrik concerning the tranquilizing of Karl. He ordered Meredith to be kept out of the loop when it came to Karl's tranquilizing.

In Act 2 however, Anders specifically states that he had been watching the gallows and there were more and more tranquil there every day. Including Harrowed mages. If an outsider could see that, it would be obvious someone was breaking the law. Meredith had more than enough clues sitting right outside her window to order an investigation.

Orsino could have done so as well as the First Enchanter. But he may have held off for fear of finding something incriminating against the mages and give Meredith even more justification to oppress the mages.

The problem with the game here is that we only see things from Hawke's perspective. We don't see what's going on in the gallows. We see mages being made tranquil illegally. We see Alrik getting ready to sexually abuse a mage and tranquilize her for wanting to see her mother. We already have proof that he illegally tranquilizes mages based off of Karl and the letter from the templars in act 1. We gain evidence that he was pushing an agenda to tranquilize every mage in thedas because they are mages.

If we as outsiders can gather that much proof without living in the gallows, how much proof could Meredith or the Grand Cleric had found if they actually investigated the rumors and the evidence before their eyes in the Gallows. And by evidence, I mean the number of tranquil.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...
But you cannot make absolute points like this.  Especially given the Fereldan Circle, Gregiour had full right to Anull every mage in that circle, even after the Warden rolls through it and does not, because every circle has different leadership, and those different leaders will treat mages and Templars differently.

Which leads to my point of the mage rebellion being stupid, which is of course, another argument for another day.

While I get your point that Meredith and Elthina can be evil without the entire Chantry and Templar order being evil... 

It all comes down to the bigger picture for me. 

The Chantry, in the wake of successfully overthrowing the Tevinter Imperium, declared that mages were too dangerous to have their freedom.  They decided that they had the Maker given right and duty to preach fear of mages and to kidnap them at the first sign of their power and lock them away for life.

I do not and will never buy into the notion that anyone, having done nothing against society, should be deprived of their freedom in order to make everyone else feel safe.  No matter what their capabilities.

I know this is my morality, and there is no arguing anyone else into sharing it if they aren't inclined to do so....

But the mere fact that the Chanty first declared that they are entitiled to completely control the lives of the mages and then anywhere in their ranks (especially high up in their ranks) allowed those mages to be physically, sexually and spiritually abused is evil. 

The penalties in the Chantry for abuse of a mage inside a circle should be so severe that no Templar would even consider such a thing.  An organizaiton that is truly looking out for the good of all should never allow a mage to be tormented into becoming exaclty the thing the Templars are supposed to protect against.  It should be absolutely forbidden to do anything to a mage that could push them into the arms of a demon - for how can they live up to their mission while acting in a fashion that causes MORE danger.  Even if you take the humanitarian argument out of it, causing the mages mental distress is obviously against the mission of the Chantry.

So, I don't believe that the Chantry is a good organization that needs a bit of tweaking to be better.  I believe it is a corrupt institution that can't be bothered to police its own and should be taken down.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 05 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[GavrielKay]

oops

Modifié par GavrielKay, 05 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[Zanallen]

Wait what? They should have put on a complete investigation because the guy made a suggestion? Yes, the suggestion was wrong, but after telling the man no there is no reason to think he would go behind their backs and do it anyway.

[sevalaricgirl]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
But you cannot make absolute points like this.  Especially given the Fereldan Circle, Gregiour had full right to Anull every mage in that circle, even after the Warden rolls through it and does not, because every circle has different leadership, and those different leaders will treat mages and Templars differently.

Which leads to my point of the mage rebellion being stupid, which is of course, another argument for another day.

While I get your point that Meredith and Elthina can be evil without the entire Chantry and Templar order being evil... 

It all comes down to the bigger picture for me. 

The Chantry, in the wake of successfully overthrowing the Tevinter Imperium, declared that mages were too dangerous to have their freedom.  They decided that they had the Maker given right and duty to preach fear of mages and to kidnap them at the first sign of their power and lock them away for life.

I do not and will never buy into the notion that anyone, having done nothing against society, should be deprived of their freedom in order to make everyone else feel safe.  No matter what their capabilities.

I know this is my morality, and there is no arguing anyone else into sharing it if they aren't inclined to do so....

But the mere fact that the Chanty first declared that they are entitiled to completely control the lives of the mages and then anywhere in their ranks (especially high up in their ranks) allowed those mages to be physically, sexually and spiritually abused is evil. 

The penalties in the Chantry for abuse of a mage inside a circle should be so severe that no Templar would even consider such a thing.  An organizaiton that is truly looking out for the good of all should never allow a mage to be tormented into becoming exaclty the thing the Templars are supposed to protect against.  It should be absolutely forbidden to do anything to a mage that could push them into the arms of a demon - for how can they live up to their mission while acting in a fashion that causes MORE danger.  Even if you take the humanitarian argument out of it, causing the mages mental distress is obviously against the mission of the Chantry.

So, I don't believe that the Chantry is a good organization that needs a bit of tweaking to be better.  I believe it is a corrupt institution that can't be bothered to police its own and should be taken down.

That is Kirkwall, not Fereldon and who knows where else.  We don't get to see other circles.  The Fereldon circle with Irving was much better, gave more freedoms and if there were any relationships going on, it was mutual.  The circle in Fereldon was a school not a prison.  In Kirkwall, it was a prison.  So the chantry everywhere does not act as the chantry in Kirkwall does.  We also know that there are good templars in Kirkwall who had their hands tied behind their backs by Meredith who was corrupt even without the idol.  I don't think Elthina was corrupt, I think she was blind to what was going on.  Bethany being a circle mage was fairly happy.  Do I think that children and people should be dragged off to the circle because they are mages, no, but I do think they need training and good leadership.  I usually side with the mages though I find it hard not to side with Cullen .  In DA3, I'd like to have him leave the order and become a companion.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 05 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[Macropodmum]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

 I don't think Elthina was corrupt, I think she was blind to what was going on. 

I don't think she was corrupt, but she wasn't blind either.  It was possible to bring things to her attention but you always got the "if the maker wills it" speech.  She was ineffectual and apathetic, she claimed to be there to protect her flock but in 7 years I didn't see her do anything to protect them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Alrik made sure that his actions were kept from Meredith, his superior, so you can't expect Meredith to take action against him. He made a suggestion, which was denied, and that is all that is known by Meredith.

[TEWR]

An untrained monkey could see that if more mages were being made Tranquil without the say so of the KC and the FE, then something is off.

The Knight Commander and the First Enchanter are the ones who have to agree that a mage can be made tranquil.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I expect Meredith to do her bloody job. Making mages Tranquil is kind of a big deal. If she has no way of knowing when mages suddenly wind up with a brand for no reason, it's either because she's incompetent or it's because she doesn't care.

This. There's only two possible scenarios with Meredith. She is either a psychotic tyrant who knows and deliberately looks the other way when her templars are abusing their station, or she is a complete incompetant idiot who can't control her underlings, and sure as sh*t can't control the mages, which makes her incompetant and a joke of a knight commander. Either are justification for her to be removed from her job, which never happens. Which, isn't a surprise. the Chantry itself, at the very least, is incompetant.

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

It really doesn't.  It just states that the song the Red Lyrium has and the song the Old gods have are similar.  Coincidence making Dragon Age, and all, your words.  Their purposes are diametrically opposed.

The whispering isn't just similar. It's exactly the same. I have no clue though if the whispering is the song they hear, but I would hope that the song is something ethereal and not just "GAbhojaohofhaohaohf"

I never stated Corypheus could hear the calling.  I stated that he and awakened Darkspawn have to have some level of communication with Old Gods for Dragon Age Awakening, as well as the revelation that the Architect created the fifth blight, to be plausible, as other options are completely comical.  I never stated they need the Calling to control Darkspawn, only that their control cannot be stronger than the calling, or Dragon Age Awakening, already considered canon, could not have occured.

Except Awakened Darkspawn no longer have a connection to the Old Gods. That's precisely what the Architect's research was about. Sundering the connection and allowing the Darkspawn to live their own lives. For all we know, the Architect either: A) dug in various areas and not just one, used the Darkspawn under his control to find the area to dig, or C) remembers some things from when he was a Magister and quite possibly one of those things is the location of the Old Gods and where they're buried (if the Magisters ever knew, though it might be unlikely).

What shipments?  We know the Dwarves did not have knowledge of every corner of the Deep Roads by virtue of the Ancient Thaig, and the fact that it's not in the Shaperate's memories.  It was only necessary to dump one undetected Broodmother into the Deep Roads to cause, well, everything that occured.  Do you know how many undetected fauna and flora go around this planet and flourish, without natural predators that you think that they would leave a paper trail for some reason?   Perhaps it's just me, but I've always seen the Darkspawn/Old God correlation to be directly linked to that of the Golden/Black City and the Magisters, as soon as you get close to it, you corrupt it.  As such, I don't see where you are getting shipments from, why the Tevinters would note it on ledgers, or where you see the Tevinters, who could not care less about anyone, would care about leaving an experiment to Dwarves they hold no allegiance to.  Like I 've stated, if the Imperium did not create Darkspawn, it would not only be part of their history but part of the surrounding neighbors of Tevinter via travel, it would get out unless the Imperium deems it neccessary to hide, and they have no good reason to.

Have you seen a broodmother? They're fused into the wall/ground. I'm getting shipments because you're saying that the Imperium just decided to drop Darkspawn/Ghoulified women (broodmothers) in the Deep Roads. For one thing, the Primeval Thaig couldn't be a dropping point because it's untouched by Darkspawn, and we have no clue if there are others (though I believe there are)

I never stated the Darkspawn were a scientific creation. Only the Kossith seemingly study science.  I feel they are a magical creation, though, and given the unfettered control the Tevinters had over Thedas, what would stop them from taking magic to those levels, as they were already approaching being like Darkspawn come the First Blight anyway.

Scientific or magical, the taint cannot be recreated artificially. It can be studied like Avernus did, but it cannot be recreated artificially.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Remind me again. Exactly what is the connection between the Primeveal Thaig and Darkspawn? I don't recall meeting a single Darkspawn within, or anything even resembling the taint. What we do encounter is Lyrium, which has always been described as "singing". This Lyrium is however red, and apparently have some undiscovered properties. But there is nothing at all suggesting a connection with the Darkspawn, other than the lyrium song, sharing a word with the Old God's song.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Alrik made sure that his actions were kept from Meredith, his superior, so you can't expect Meredith to take action against him. He made a suggestion, which was denied, and that is all that is known by Meredith.

I expect Meredith to do her bloody job. Making mages Tranquil is kind of a big deal. If she has no way of knowing when mages suddenly wind up with a brand for no reason, it's either because she's incompetent or it's because she doesn't care.

You expect her to gather all Tranquils in the courtyard every day and make a tally of them? You realize that the Tranquil are no longer her responsibility, since they aren't mages anymore? She has no way of knowing that there are more Tranquils now than ever, unless someone tells her, and since that information was withheld from her, she couldn't act on it.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Remind me again. Exactly what is the connection between the Primeveal Thaig and Darkspawn? I don't recall meeting a single Darkspawn within, or anything even resembling the taint. What we do encounter is Lyrium, which has always been described as "singing". This Lyrium is however red, and apparently have some undiscovered properties. But there is nothing at all suggesting a connection with the Darkspawn, other than the lyrium song, sharing a word with the Old God's song.

As I said above the Primeval Thaig is untouched by the Darkspawn, which may mean they're avoiding it. I'm wondering if the Darkspawn that attacked Nathaniel's group were trying to keep them away for some reason (just me speculating).

However, the thaig is crawling with red lyrium, which has a whisper that is exactly the same as the whispering the Darkspawn hear. It's not just one word or two words. The whole bloody thing is the same.

And as we know the idol thins the Veil (since it caused an Ethereal Golem, who only exist in the Fade, to pop out. Since we find Ethereal potions in Awakening, anything that has the name Ethereal only exists in the Fade (yes even me ), which has been described as a heavenly place. The Golden City, if it ever was, was described as paradise.)

To me and other people, this indicates that the Darkspawn and the Dwarves have a very big connection.



I'd also like to point out that for some reason we find and fight a few golems in the Primeval Thaig, which I found odd.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 11:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

That they reuse sound files, because having two different whisper sound files would be redudndant, should not be used as absolute evidence that they are one and the same.

Also the fact that the idol affects the veil and has a connection to the Fade, could also indicate that it has absolutely nothing to do with the Darkspawn, since they do neither.

Or perhaps the conenction is not as direct as you think. Perhaps the only connection between the two is that the Darkspawn are trying to prevent others from obtaining the idol, for whatever reason. It certainly doesn't have any connections to the Old Gods, as then it would have attracted Darkspawn instead of repulsing them.