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[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That they reuse sound files, because having two different whisper sound files would be redudndant, should not be used as absolute evidence that they are one and the same.

Also the fact that the idol affects the veil and has a connection to the Fade, could also indicate that it has absolutely nothing to do with the Darkspawn, since they do neither.

Or perhaps the conenction is not as direct as you think. Perhaps the only connection between the two is that the Darkspawn are trying to prevent others from obtaining the idol, for whatever reason. It certainly doesn't have any connections to the Old Gods, as then it would have attracted Darkspawn instead of repulsing them.

Well, you can believe that they just reused a sound file to recycle stuff (though, it's DA2 so that is a fair thing to say )

however, we do fight Darkspawn in the Fade. Remember Uthkiel the Crusher and all of his minions?

I'm choosing to believe it does have a connection to the Old Gods, Taint, or the emergence of the Darkspawn

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In Act 2 however, Anders specifically states that he had been watching the gallows and there were more and more tranquil there every day. Including Harrowed mages. If an outsider could see that, it would be obvious someone was breaking the law. Meredith had more than enough clues sitting right outside her window to order an investigation.

There's also a random dialogue from an unnamed mage in the courtyards saying "I heard Ser Alrik place the order for me to made Tranquil. I passed my Harrowing! He can't do that!"

Orsino could have done so as well as the First Enchanter. But he may have held off for fear of finding something incriminating against the mages and give Meredith even more justification to oppress the mages.

Or maybe he did and nothing came of it. Like every other time he complained about the mages' treatment under Meredith. He had two options for reporting abuse: Meredith, who was behind a lot of the abuse herself. Or Elthina, who put her stamp of approval on Meredith's crimes while saving face with the... "less observant" who think authority figures overlooking abuse is "neutrality." So yeah, Orsino was up the creek without a paddle.

If we as outsiders can gather that much proof without living in the gallows, how much proof could Meredith or the Grand Cleric had found if they actually investigated the rumors and the evidence before their eyes in the Gallows. And by evidence, I mean the number of tranquil.

Don't forget Leliana. She's a bard, getting that kind of information is her entire specialty. But the two-faced Orlesian **** just wants to crush Kirkwall because the mages are getting tired of being beaten, raped, and murdered by their "merciful" guardians. ... GOD I hope we get the chance to bleed her dry in DA3.

Zanallen wrote...

Wait what? They should have put on a complete investigation because the guy made a suggestion? Yes, the suggestion was wrong, but after telling the man no there is no reason to think he would go behind their backs and do it anyway.

Are you ****ing kidding?! Do you even understand what he proposed?! He wasn't suggesting changing to a cheaper brand of paper in the stalls, what he was suggesting was a direct reference to Adolf Hitler's "Final Solution." You know, that whole "let's kill all the jews" thing that people don't remember too fondly? In case anyone missed the blatantly obvious comparison at first, Sebastian refers to it as a holocaust in a banter with Anders later. A hardcore Chantry supporter literally calls it a holocaust!

But oh yeah, they shouldn't bother keeping an eye on the guy who not only thinks a Hitler-esque campaign is a good idea, he's so crazy he legitimately tries to talk the Divine into it. Yeah no, you're right, it'll be totally safe letting that guy have total control over the minority he wants to wipe out.

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I usually side with the mages though I find it hard not to side with Cullen .  In DA3, I'd like to have him leave the order and become a companion.

"But the mages want no controls on them at all." - Cullen, in an annoyed tone, defending the above mentioned holocaust.

I want to smack Uldred for not melting him.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

An untrained monkey could see that if more mages were being made Tranquil without the say so of the KC and the FE, then something is off.

The Knight Commander and the First Enchanter are the ones who have to agree that a mage can be made tranquil.

Remember that random scene with a mage (who still has his soul) and a tranquil in the courtyard? I forget how it went exactly, but he was facing the crushing realization that some templar had stolen the soul of the woman he loved so he could make her his sex slave? Love the part where she says in that dead, monotone tranquil voice that "now I only belong to (templar's name)."

Tevinter enslaving the world is supposed to be worse, right? I keep forgetting for some reason...

[TEWR]

Remember that random scene with a mage (who still has his soul) and a tranquil in the courtyard? I forget how it went exactly, but he was facing the crushing realization that some templar had stolen the soul of the woman he loved so he could make her his sex slave? Love the part where she says in that dead, monotone tranquil voice that "now I only belong to (templar's name)."

Tevinter enslaving the world is supposed to be worse, right? I keep forgetting for some reason...

I remember that. The elven male starts talking to a woman he loved, and she says she was made Tranquil and only serves Ser Alrik now.

Sadistic bastard... he probably has a harem of Tranquil women. I would be laughing if he couldn't get it up.

But that's a bit too crude for this thread.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I remember that. The elven male starts talking to a woman he loved, and she says she was made Tranquil and only serves Ser Alrik now.

Sadistic bastard... he probably has a harem of Tranquil women. I would be laughing if he couldn't get it up.

But that's a bit too crude for this thread.

Of course he can't get it up.  If you don't believe me, look for yourself.  After I chopped it off I put it on a pike near the Chantry.

[TEWR]

Of course he can't get it up. If you don't believe me, look for yourself. After I chopped it off I put it on a pike near the Chantry.

LOL Elthina must've had a nice thing to wake up to when she looked out the window.

[nitefyre410]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Remember that random scene with a mage (who still has his soul) and a tranquil in the courtyard? I forget how it went exactly, but he was facing the crushing realization that some templar had stolen the soul of the woman he loved so he could make her his sex slave? Love the part where she says in that dead, monotone tranquil voice that "now I only belong to (templar's name)."

Tevinter enslaving the world is supposed to be worse, right? I keep forgetting for some reason...

I remember that. The elven male starts talking to a woman he loved, and she says she was made Tranquil and only serves Ser Alrik now.

Sadistic bastard... he probably has a harem of Tranquil women. I would be laughing if he couldn't get it up.

But that's a bit too crude for this thread.

Just another reason why  "make mages  tranquil." churns my stomach.  When you  look at the solutions that are given for issues and start thinking that its more humane to KILL  them. There is something that is fundementally wrong with that and the system in gerenal. 

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

No, no, I'll admit that mages have been gravely at fault too. Blood magic might not be inherently evil, but societal norms and the real dangers associated with it require its banning. Those who break the law should be punished.

But since when did enforcing the law involve looking the other way while a rapist abused vulnerable people under his watch? As for a citizen's arrest, if that were even possible in Kirkwall...It's obvious the Templars have no concept of an internal affairs division. The Seekers come close, but they do almost nothing, and they largely turn a blind eye to the Templars' abuses.

Alrik was a subordinate of Meredith. Meredith is sworn to uphold the laws of the Chantry. One of them is that Harrowed mages are not to be made Tranquil. I hope it doesn't need to be stated that using Tranquil mages as sex slaves is also, in fact, illegal. Had Meredith been working to that end, Alrik would have been removed from command.

I am not certain other Templars know of his abuses.  Do you have in game quotes to that effect?

But like I stated, every hierachial position will have corruption amungst it's ranks.  As far as we know, we have no proof that Meredith has knowledge that Alrik is tranquiling post Harrowing mages.  If you have in game proof, I'd like to hear it, becasue I don't remember any.

Alrik admitted straight out that he was ready and willing to make every mage in Thedas Tranquil. Keep in mind that this is explicitly against Chantry law. Harrowed mages are not made Tranquil. So, Alrik admitted to his superior officer that he was eager to break the law. So she said "no" and kept him around the individuals that he was intent on mind-raping one and all, instead of relieving him from duty for a while. I don't think you can write that off as corruption in the same way a cop takes drug money. What it does prove is that Meredith doesn't really care what kind of people oversee the mages. They could be relatively honorable people like Thrask, but they could also be monstrous like Karras and Alrik. and she really wouldn't lift a finger about it, as long as mages are shackled. That's why the Templar Order needs reforming.

[BigEvil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You expect her to gather all Tranquils in the courtyard every day and make a tally of them? You realize that the Tranquil are no longer her responsibility, since they aren't mages anymore? She has no way of knowing that there are more Tranquils now than ever, unless someone tells her, and since that information was withheld from her, she couldn't act on it.

Actually just because they are tranquil doesn't mean they are not her responsibility anymore. Tranquil enchanters seem to make up a portion (how significant we don't know) of the Chantry's means of gaining funds. We've been told this several times, that they make things and sell them to increase the Chantry's or Circle's money. I'd imagine that source of money will be more than they'll get from donations, at least when looked at across one location, total donations Thedas wide would probably be more. The point being, less money, less equipment for Templars, less new recruits can be taken on because their wages can't be paid, more paranoia for Meredith.

[jamesp81]

Harid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


Remember the part where nobody knew Orsino was a blood mage (assuming one known instance of blood magic is sufficient to brand someone forever)? There is no evidence that Orsino used blood magic prior to his transformation. If he did, then it was in secret. You can't punish someone for something when you don't have even the slightest clue that they actually did it.

Meredith and Elthina, on the other hand, are well within their rights and capabilities to have Alrik investigated and puinished, being that they, you know, control the templars and have a letter where he as good as confesses that he's an utter whackjob.

As for your workplace sexual harassment example: the human resources department in any big company has internal legal consultants for exactly that sort of situation. And there's all sorts of external legal recourse options you can take too.

Hawke did (knew Orsino was practcing Blood Magic/Necromancy)  he had no proof, though.  But of course, Hawke does nothing during the game that s/he doesn't stumble into, so whatever.  It kind of ties into my point about corruption, though.  Who policies the Enchanters given how Orsino could practice Blood Magic in Secrecy?

As for your last quote, it took them 9 years to remove him.  Which I supposed leads to my point of we don't know how long it takes for a Templar to be removed, because of abuse of power, if it even happens given the power they have in Kirkwall.

Removal of an abusive templar requires less than one second.

The time it takes for me to draw a sword and shove it up his ass.

[jamesp81]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

1) We know.  He was the person in contact with Quentin.  He admits it himself.  If you want to beleive he pulled this complicated research out of his ass from photographic memory then I am done talking to you.
2) Prove to me they know of the rape or it gets scribbled under incompetance at best.
3) People ignore atrocites worldwide.  How much money have you donated to the crisis in Darfur?  Are you posting from your laptop from Wifi in the Sudan?  Don't give me that sanctimonious ****, people ignore atrocities all of the time when they are not affected.

Yes, he admits it at the end when he feels he has nothing to lose.  I've already said that if anyone knew about it they should have acted.  The fact that he admits it to Hawke at the end doesn't mean anyone else ever knew and had a chance to stop him.

Well, if Hawke as an outsider knew, then anyone inside who didn't know was trying not to.  Really, the Gallows is a prison.  Someone would hear something. 

If I were the Sergeant responsible for a soldier who was commiting those attrocities then I'd be evil to let them continue once I knew.  Getting furious with me over something I didn't say is just silly.  If I had said the butcher at the shop down the block from the Chantry was evil for not stopping it then you could call me sanctimonious.  Geez.

This is an unfortunate effect of hierachical systems, and is something that actively needs to be changed, but I am not going to fault a soldier for following orders.

Current legal traditions do.  "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense at a military trial.

[jamesp81]

I do not and will never buy into the notion that anyone, having done
nothing against society, should be deprived of their freedom in order to
make everyone else feel safe.  No matter what their capabilities.

Spoken well

[jamesp81]

Zanallen wrote...

Wait what? They should have put on a complete investigation because the guy made a suggestion? Yes, the suggestion was wrong, but after telling the man no there is no reason to think he would go behind their backs and do it anyway.

When people start making suggestions about organized, systematic violence, genocide, and tyranny, it warrants more than a "no, now run along and be a good templar".

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Alrik made sure that his actions were kept from Meredith, his superior, so you can't expect Meredith to take action against him. He made a suggestion, which was denied, and that is all that is known by Meredith.

I don't know how templars work, but I will give you a bit of well known legal tradition related to modern militaries.

In modern militaries, the commanding officer is responsible for the actions of those under his command.  Period.  Full stop.  No exceptions.

Meredith is responsible for Alrik's actions whether she knew about them or not.  This is based on the idea that she damned well should've known what he was doing.

[dragonflight288]

So it all comes down to, she either knew and didn't care or she went out of her way not to know and is incompetent. But she is constantly praised by the majority of the city and Elthina for keeping them safe.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

As for your point about abhorrant ideas and being kept in power, I can quote dozens of people who kept their jobs in the US that actually carried through their abhorrant plans with ease.  As I stated before, people don't care when they aren't directly affected.

Well, for one, this is a video game, and I don't play it to feel just as powerless and overwhelmed as I feel by huge atrocities in the real world.  If Hawke is supposed to be a hero, she'd better do more than I do sitting in my office playing a computer game.

Second, the characters in the game are directly affected.  They are an officer in a military organization and his direct superior.  These people have a duty, even within the oppressive beliefs of their religion, to keep the mages in a state that leads to overall safety.  They have, more than anything else in their lives, a responsibility to be sure that they don't do anything to the mages that results in those mages being more dangerous.

The organization that sets itself up to derive power from keeping the mages under control and purports to keep everyone safer by that action is corrupt beyond salvage if, in addition to being oppressive, they are also lying bastards.

If they allow, by outright support or apathy, the kinds of abuses in Kirkwall, then they are evil.  In order for the system to be anything more than a torment to mages for life, it needs to provide its own checks and balances. 

The penalties for making something worse should be severe.  When a Templar inevitably steps over the line, they should be dealt with swiftly and harshly.  The system itself, in order to actually be "good," must make it clear that pushing the mages into the arms of demons is not acceptable under any circumstances ever.  Period.

The fact that it varies by so much according to whether any given circle is lucky enough to have a Gregoir vs. a Meredith is part of the corruption.  The system itself should make it absolutely impossible, with harsh penalties for failure, to end up brutalizing the mages to the point where turning into an abomination seems like a reasonable alternative.

These people take the mages' freedom in the name of protecting everyone else.  They seize responsibility for those mages by force and then utterly fail to live up to the burden they insist on bearing.  That is more than mere apathy.  That is evil at its finest.

[GavrielKay]

BigEvil wrote...

Actually just because they are tranquil doesn't mean they are not her responsibility anymore. Tranquil enchanters seem to make up a portion (how significant we don't know) of the Chantry's means of gaining funds. We've been told this several times, that they make things and sell them to increase the Chantry's or Circle's money. I'd imagine that source of money will be more than they'll get from donations, at least when looked at across one location, total donations Thedas wide would probably be more. The point being, less money, less equipment for Templars, less new recruits can be taken on because their wages can't be paid, more paranoia for Meredith.

I would say more than that even.  The fact that they are made Tranquil and thus deprived of the ability to survive on their own (in any real fashion, they lack survival instinct as shown by ...  is it Owain?  in Origins) puts the burden of caring for them onto the Chantry/Templars.  Otherwise, they should just be killed rather than stripped of their "self" and used as servants.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

While I agree with you, I cannot find fault in the opposite to that, say, you know your Sargeant is doing wrong but you cannot do anything over fear of your job or your life.  This is why I call you santimonious, in some cases, ratting out your CO will get you killed or horribly demoted.  Look at say rape in the US Army.  This is an unfortunate effect of hierachical systems, and is something that actively needs to be changed, but I am not going to fault a soldier for following orders.

Perhaps this sank in later, but just in case...  you've got it backwards here.  We're not talking about the Sergeant doing wrong and the soldier having to decide what to do about it. We're talking about the soldier doing wrong and the Sergeant being responsible for setting it straight.  This is NOT a bottom up problem, but a TOP down one.  Meredith and Elthina are the ones who know, and they are the the absolute authority in Kirkwall regarding the Templars unless the Divine or Knight Vigilant would decide to step in.

[BBK4114]

Okay, I just for the first time played a pro-Templar Hawke with a pc who romanced Fenris- a total chore that was, btw -and I must say the end game truly made me feel ill.

I'm sorry to tell all you pro-Templar people but at the most basic level there is a HUGE difference between slaughtering innocent mages -not blood mages but Circle Mages- and defending those innocents against the murderous Templars.

No more investigation needed, imo.

[TEWR]

I'd also like to point out that religion is a means to attain power. I'd like to quote Edgar Allan Poe here if I may:


“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry”
wise words from a great man. Let's try to pinpoint where the Chantry falls to these five things.



Fraud - The Chantry seems on the outside to be an ideal established religion. They do good deeds and protect its' citizens. But how many of these good deeds are simply done to shroud over their evil acts? Like the Exalted March of the Dales. I find it hard to believe that the Dalish Elves of that time would've assaulted anyone on purpose and without provocation. They were thankful that the people gave them land again. Land that had been forcibly taken from them by the Tevinter Imperium. I doubt they would've jeopardized their status for any reason. We also know that the Chantry sent missionaries to convert the Dalish elves, which they refused to do because they wanted to worship their own religion. So the missionaries left, but then returned to forcibly convert them. Because as we all know, the Chantry's dogma states that the Chant of Light must be sung from the four corners of the world. And they have no qualms about how they go about achieving that. Mass murder seems to fit in well with their morality. Good to know. So the Dalish fought back in defense. Had the other nations not gotten involved with this conflict, the Dalish could've won, because Orlais had just survived a Blight and was incredibly weak at this time. Who knows, maybe they wanted their land back because it was still in good health. Also, the elves supposedly remained neutral throughout that Blight (imo a stupid maneuver because it's a f****** Blight. not a war). So fraud, check.



Fear - The Chantry fears mages because they are born with something that is in their DNA. They fear them because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. They fear them because of spirits. So they gather them up and take them to the Circle to teach them how to properly defend against their magic (which the Dalish know how to do better). But they also indoctrinate the mages into thinking what they were born with is a curse from the Maker. I refer you to the one female mage who keeps praying for a sword of mercy to come, because she actually believes what she has is solely a curse. It is both a gift and a curse. As is most of what humanity has. Free will. Love. I could go on. Anyway, the Chantry also teaches the populus to fear mages. Most do, yet some believe that mages can be good people and worthy of respect (Gregoir, Leandra, Ser Maarevar Carver, Alistair, etc.). The Chantry would be content with making sure the world fears mages and sees them as less than human. Fear. A poison so foul it corrupts the very mind's rational thinking. They fear mages and make sure that everyone else does too. If a mage runs away from the Circle, he is automatically branded maleficar. All apostates are maleficar to them, and must be delivered "mercy". And in regards to the elves, they purposely left out verses dealing with Shartan. Why? I don't know for certain, but my guess is that after the Exalted March of the Dales they wanted to make sure people saw them as second-class citizens. Shartan fought with Andraste, yet they won't acknowledge him in their precious Chant.



Greed - The Chantry controls lyrium as a means to keep a tight leash on the Templars. They don't want to lose their military, so they sure they're addicted to the lyrium. Once they're addicted, they're almost forced to remain within their ranks. If they leave, the withdrawal could kill them. One could also argue that they only "convert" other people so they can become more dominant. It has nothing to do with the Maker. It's all about influence over the world.



Imagination and Poetry - These two go hand in hand to the Chant of Light. The Chant of Light is all fluff and poetic wording. The Golden City being corrupted by the hubris of the Tevinter mages seems to be a lie. Wynne states that it could all be allegory. What it could be an allegory to, I cannot say (I haven't brushed up on my literature studies for a while. I know what an allegory is, just what it is one to I don't know). It's a beautiful piece of literary work, but as Merrill says it has a lot of holes in it. Aveline, an atheist or a skeptical believer, says that it's pretty and maybe that's all it needs to be.




If anyone would like to add more to these, feel free. I'll then edit your posts in and give credit where credit is due.

That's what I wrote on another thread a few months ago. I feel like most of it applies here, though obviously we've learned some new things recently so not all of it applies. Like in the Imagination section. We know that Corypheus and his drinking buddies entered the City, but they imply that it was always black.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[Zanallen]

jamesp81 wrote...

I don't know how templars work, but I will give you a bit of well known legal tradition related to modern militaries.

In modern militaries, the commanding officer is responsible for the actions of those under his command.  Period.  Full stop.  No exceptions.

Meredith is responsible for Alrik's actions whether she knew about them or not.  This is based on the idea that she damned well should've known what he was doing.

Yes, yes. You are speaking of Respondeat superior. Unfortunately, Dragon Age is not set during modern day. The templar order is not a modern military. Dragon Age is set in a fantasy universe based partially on medieval Europe where no such law was common place and instead most militaries followed the rite of conquest. If you cannot prove that Meredith knew of Alrik's action, then you cannot show that she is responsible for them. Meredith is in charge of not only the gallows, but basically controls Kirkwall as well. She can't spend her time watching each and every one of her subordinates. You might say that she should, but that is idealistic nonsense.

[Zanallen]

BBK4114 wrote...

Okay, I just for the first time played a pro-Templar Hawke with a pc who romanced Fenris- a total chore that was, btw -and I must say the end game truly made me feel ill.

I'm sorry to tell all you pro-Templar people but at the most basic level there is a HUGE difference between slaughtering innocent mages -not blood mages but Circle Mages- and defending those innocents against the murderous Templars.

No more investigation needed, imo.

Which innocent mages? The ones whose leader is a blood mage that had a hand in your mother's death?

[Zanallen]

jamesp81 wrote...

When people start making suggestions about organized, systematic violence, genocide, and tyranny, it warrants more than a "no, now run along and be a good templar".

You realise that templars have the rite of annulment, right? That is she so chooses and the situation demands it, the knight-commander can send for permission to kill all of the mages in the circle? If Alrik had suggested that, does that mean he should be watched and investigated? Recall that the chantry specifically recruits zealots who have the utmost faith in their duties. Tranquiling all of the mages seems like a better notion then killing them all. At least then they could still be of some use.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I don't know how templars work, but I will give you a bit of well known legal tradition related to modern militaries.

In modern militaries, the commanding officer is responsible for the actions of those under his command.  Period.  Full stop.  No exceptions.

Meredith is responsible for Alrik's actions whether she knew about them or not.  This is based on the idea that she damned well should've known what he was doing.

Yes, yes. You are speaking of Respondeat superior. Unfortunately, Dragon Age is not set during modern day. The templar order is not a modern military. Dragon Age is set in a fantasy universe based partially on medieval Europe where no such law was common place and instead most militaries followed the rite of conquest. If you cannot prove that Meredith knew of Alrik's action, then you cannot show that she is responsible for them. Meredith is in charge of not only the gallows, but basically controls Kirkwall as well. She can't spend her time watching each and every one of her subordinates. You might say that she should, but that is idealistic nonsense.

Don't use the real-world Middle Ages to dismiss every criticism of the Templars; it's not a 1:1 comparison. Yes, in a world where women have equal rights to men in a majority of the countries, where contraception is not only legal, but encouraged in some cases, where women can inherit property, and where homosexuality is not prohibited by law nor societal norms, no person on the face of Thedas can figure out that a person charged with enforcing the Chantry's laws should not be given absolute, unchecked authority, especially when he wishes to commit an act that is expressly against Chantry law. Face it, Meredith was being negligent. She doesn't need to constantly watch each and every Templar - but when one particular templar straight up says that he wants to break a law of the Chantry in the most extreme sense imaginable, to the point of contacting the goddamn Divine, that should set off some warning bells. She wasn't looking for a needle in a haystack. The needle presented itself to her.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

When people start making suggestions about organized, systematic violence, genocide, and tyranny, it warrants more than a "no, now run along and be a good templar".

You realise that templars have the rite of annulment, right? That is she so chooses and the situation demands it, the knight-commander can send for permission to kill all of the mages in the circle? If Alrik had suggested that, does that mean he should be watched and investigated? Recall that the chantry specifically recruits zealots who have the utmost faith in their duties. Tranquiling all of the mages seems like a better notion then killing them all. At least then they could still be of some use.

Making all mages Tranquil in a non-Annulment scenario is expressly illegal according to Chantry law. How many times does this need to be stated?