404 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Making all mages Tranquil in a non-Annulment scenario is expressly illegal according to Chantry law. How many times does this need to be stated?

Yes, but killing them is just fine in chantry law. One can't make a suggestion of a solution that would serve the same purpose while still leaving the mages viable? Smoking marijuana is illegal, but I can still suggest it be legalized for taxation purposes without having the DEA watching my every move.

[Zanallen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Don't use the real-world Middle Ages to dismiss every criticism of the Templars; it's not a 1:1 comparison. Yes, in a world where women have equal rights to men in a majority of the countries, where contraception is not only legal, but encouraged in some cases, where women can inherit property, and where homosexuality is not prohibited by law nor societal norms, no person on the face of Thedas can figure out that a person charged with enforcing the Chantry's laws should not be given absolute, unchecked authority, especially when he wishes to commit an act that is expressly against Chantry law. Face it, Meredith was being negligent. She doesn't need to constantly watch each and every Templar - but when one particular templar straight up says that he wants to break a law of the Chantry in the most extreme sense imaginable, to the point of contacting the goddamn Divine, that should set off some warning bells. She wasn't looking for a needle in a haystack. The needle presented itself to her.

I can't use a real world comparison to address a real world comparison? Interesting.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Making all mages Tranquil in a non-Annulment scenario is expressly illegal according to Chantry law. How many times does this need to be stated?

Yes, but killing them is just fine in chantry law. One can't make a suggestion of a solution that would serve the same purpose while still leaving the mages viable? Smoking marijuana is illegal, but I can still suggest it be legalized for taxation purposes without having the DEA watching my every move.

Yes, making all mages drooling simpletons who have no emotions and no survival instinct is a much better solution. Killing mages outright is also considered illegal, unless it is during an Annulment. Take the epilogue where Cullen murders a bunch of apprentices and flees the Circle Tower. It's stated that his own former colleagues were hunting him down. So, no, indiscrimately killing law-abiding mages is not legalized. Neither is Tranquilizing Harrowed mages.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...
If you cannot prove that Meredith knew of Alrik's action, then you cannot show that she is responsible for them. Meredith is in charge of not only the gallows, but basically controls Kirkwall as well. She can't spend her time watching each and every one of her subordinates. You might say that she should, but that is idealistic nonsense.

I can say it is her duty to be sure that none of her subordiantes are breaking the rules.  And that if, as an institution, the Chantry/Templars can't be bothered to be sure that circle mages aren't being abused then there is no obligation to consider them "good" just because they claim to be.  I can also say that spending her time watching each and every one of her subordinates is just your taking it to the extreme to somehow make it seem like she shoudlnt' have been able to investigate the ONE who sent her and the Grand Cleric a note strongly suggesting that he was (as someone else put it) a total whackjob.

Which innocent mages? The ones whose leader is a blood mage that had a hand in your mother's death?

We see a few dozen mages in the Gallows.  The notion that every other one of the hundreds of mages in that prison are also blood mages is just silly.  There are children and elderly mages in there too.  And we have no idea how much Orsino knew about the death of Hawke's mother and the circumstances behind it.

Recall that the chantry specifically recruits zealots who have the
utmost faith in their duties. Tranquiling all of the mages seems like a
better notion then killing them all. At least then they could still be
of some use.

And this is the absolute most vile thing I've read on the forum in a while.

You honestly think it is better for the mage to be Tranquiled and have their body subjected to servitude under the Templars than to be dead?  To have your "self" stripped away and your animate corpse used as a sex toy by some deviant Templar while your mind is still in there unable to care?

"...some use..."  That is just evil.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 05 août 2011 - 07:24 .

[Zanallen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Yes, making all mages drooling simpletons who have no emotions and no survival instinct is a much better solution. Killing mages outright is also considered illegal, unless it is during an Annulment. Take the epilogue where Cullen murders a bunch of apprentices and flees the Circle Tower. It's stated that his own former colleagues were hunting him down. So, no, indiscrimately killing law-abiding mages is not legalized. Neither is Tranquilizing Harrowed mages.

Tranquil are not drooling simpletons. They are merely people without emotions. And no one said indiscriminate killing was allowed. However, during an annulment the templars are allowed to kill them all. Instead, tranquiling them would serve the purpose of destroying the threat while also keeping a viable income source. But the question remains, should someone who suggests the rite of annulment be investigated?

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

However, during an annulment the templars are allowed to kill them all. Instead, tranquiling them would serve the purpose of destroying the threat while also keeping a viable income source. But the question remains, should someone who suggests the rite of annulment be investigated?

Someone who thinks it's OK to remove people's souls and use their bodies to make money should be investigated.

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

I can say it is her duty to be sure that none of her subordiantes are breaking the rules.  And that if, as an institution, the Chantry/Templars can't be bothered to be sure that circle mages aren't being abused then there is no obligation to consider them "good" just because they claim to be.  I can also say that spending her time watching each and every one of her subordinates is just your taking it to the extreme to somehow make it seem like she shoudlnt' have been able to investigate the ONE who sent her and the Grand Cleric a note strongly suggesting that he was (as someone else put it) a total whackjob.

Yes, because suggestion equals intent to conspire behind the back of you superiors. Do you know how many templars are under Meredith's command? Not to mention all the various other duties she has. Without proof of Alrik's crimes being known, I am unwilling to condem her on this.

We see a few dozen mages in the Gallows.  The notion that every other one of the hundreds of mages in that prison are also blood mages is just silly.  There are children and elderly mages in there too.  And we have no idea how much Orsino knew about the death of Hawke's mother and the circumstances behind it.

We know he was working with the serial killer. We know he was a blood mage and plenty of his supporters were as well. We don't see much in the way of innocents on either side of the conflict.

And this is the absolute most vile thing I've read on the forum in a while.

You honestly think it is better for the mage to be Tranquiled and have their body subjected to servitude under the Templars than to be dead?  To have your "self" stripped away and your animate corpse used as a sex toy by some deviant Templar while your mind is still in there unable to care?

"...some use..."  That is just evil.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. They should be sex slaves. I wasn't at all refering to how they are enchanters or skilled craftsmen.

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Someone who thinks it's OK to remove people's souls and use their bodies to make money should be investigated.

Is that what he told Meredith? That he wanted to tranquil mages and prostitute them?

[nitefyre410]

GavrielKay wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

However, during an annulment the templars are allowed to kill them all. Instead, tranquiling them would serve the purpose of destroying the threat while also keeping a viable income source. But the question remains, should someone who suggests the rite of annulment be investigated?

Someone who thinks it's OK to remove people's souls and use their bodies to make money should be investigated.

Bottom  line , no question asked, end of Statement.  

Turning human beings into Mindless slaves  is  not a solution - its  cruel and inhumane.  Hell I would rather just kill em - no one  deserves that fate.   

The Problem with Templars is the Right of Annulment and Tranquility  they both need to go.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Someone who thinks it's OK to remove people's souls and use their bodies to make money should be investigated.

Is that what he told Meredith? That he wanted to tranquil mages and prostitute them?

Actually, I was being even more obnoxious than that, and implying that you should be investigated.  It was a joke of course, but oh well.

Yes, I think Meredith should investigate any and every suggestion by her Templars that involves breaking Chantry law.  It is her job.  She should have been doing that instead of being acting Viscount.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Someone who thinks it's OK to remove people's souls and use their bodies to make money should be investigated.

Is that what he told Meredith? That he wanted to tranquil mages and prostitute them?

That's what he was actually doing.  And if she'd been bothered to do her job she'd know that.

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Actually, I was being even more obnoxious than that, and implying that you should be investigated.  It was a joke of course, but oh well.

Yes, I think Meredith should investigate any and every suggestion by her Templars that involves breaking Chantry law.  It is her job.  She should have been doing that instead of being acting Viscount.

I know. I chose to ignore that because of how stupid it was.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Yes, making all mages drooling simpletons who have no emotions and no survival instinct is a much better solution. Killing mages outright is also considered illegal, unless it is during an Annulment. Take the epilogue where Cullen murders a bunch of apprentices and flees the Circle Tower. It's stated that his own former colleagues were hunting him down. So, no, indiscrimately killing law-abiding mages is not legalized. Neither is Tranquilizing Harrowed mages.

Tranquil are not drooling simpletons. They are merely people without emotions. And no one said indiscriminate killing was allowed. However, during an annulment the templars are allowed to kill them all. Instead, tranquiling them would serve the purpose of destroying the threat while also keeping a viable income source. But the question remains, should someone who suggests the rite of annulment be investigated?

No, because that is, in fact, a legal option, though a very drastic one which shouldn't be suggested or applied on a whim. "Tranquilize them all" is not. I'll refrain from bringing any question of morality or ethics for now, and just focus on the stated law. Making Harrowed mages Tranquil is against Chantry law, and therefore Alrik's actions were a crime many times over.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

If the Chantry had any brains, Meredith should have been investigated the moment she went over Elthina's head and appealed to the Divine for Annulment. Both should have been investigated, really. If Elthina turned it down, yet meredith kept insisting and appealing to higher authority should have alerted the folks in Val Royeaux that there was some sort of signifigant problem. if nothing else, to see if meredith's demands had merit, and if they did, why was the grand Cleric refusing?

They could have stopped the crap long before it got out of hand had they exercised common sense and good management. But the Chantry has none of these things. They are morons who are now reaping the benefits of their idocy. They can't even keep their drug addled military arm on a reasonable leash.

[BBK4114]

Zanallen wrote...

BBK4114 wrote...

Okay, I just for the first time played a pro-Templar Hawke with a pc who romanced Fenris- a total chore that was, btw -and I must say the end game truly made me feel ill.

I'm sorry to tell all you pro-Templar people but at the most basic level there is a HUGE difference between slaughtering innocent mages -not blood mages but Circle Mages- and defending those innocents against the murderous Templars.

No more investigation needed, imo.

Which innocent mages? The ones whose leader is a blood mage that had a hand in your mother's death?

Perhaps you didn't bother to read the post?   Or maybe you need a definition?

in·no·cent adj[/i] \\ˈi-nə-sənt\\ :
a[/i] : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child>b[/i] : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze>c[/i] : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a whollyinnocent transaction>2a[/i] : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuousb[/i] : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon>3: lacking or deprived of something <her face innocent of cosmetics>

I had no trouble with killing Orsino when he turned into an abomination.   The mages (labled Circle Mages, for your edification) I had a big problem with.  The Templars killing those same Circle Mages became murderers to me, and deserved their fates at the hands of Hawke and Co.  Just because you get to "spare" 5 or 6 mages in that scenario does not lessen your guilt.

[Ryzaki]

Yes yes we killed the poor innocent pixel people.  We're horrible oppressive people who should feel ashamed of ourselves. 

Move it along.

I'm still haven't had my mind changed about siding with the templars. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 09:34 .

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes yes we killed the poor innocent pixel people.  We're horrible oppressive people who should feel ashamed of ourselves. 

Move it along.

I'm still haven't had my mind changed about siding with the templars. 

And after hundreds if not thousands of posts on both sides of this issue, I doubt anyone will.  That was the silliest part of the thread title.

There simply isn't enough information to make an argument on much besides personal morality and judgement.  And those things are rarely changed outside extreme personal experience.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Actually, I was being even more obnoxious than that, and implying that you should be investigated.  It was a joke of course, but oh well.

Yes, I think Meredith should investigate any and every suggestion by her Templars that involves breaking Chantry law.  It is her job.  She should have been doing that instead of being acting Viscount.

I know. I chose to ignore that because of how stupid it was.

Well, it may have been stupid, but suggesting that it is good to turn mages into emotionless slaves for profit is evil.

[Kail Ashton]

You lost my interest at "star wars" save that crap for bobba fett is more awesome than your mom arguments on a star wars forum champ

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Well, it may have been stupid, but suggesting that it is good to turn mages into emotionless slaves for profit is evil.

I feel that tranquilizing them is better than killing them. They may no longer have emotions, but they can still think and do something with their lives as a tranquil. If they are dead they have nothing.

[Zanallen]

BBK4114 wrote...

Perhaps you didn't bother to read the post?   Or maybe you need a definition?

in·no·cent adj[/i] ˈi-nə-sənt :
a[/i] : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child>b[/i] : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze>c[/i] : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a whollyinnocent transaction>2a[/i] : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuousb[/i] : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon>3: lacking or deprived of something <her face innocent of cosmetics>

I had no trouble with killing Orsino when he turned into an abomination.   The mages (labled Circle Mages, for your edification) I had a big problem with.  The Templars killing those same Circle Mages became murderers to me, and deserved their fates at the hands of Hawke and Co.  Just because you get to "spare" 5 or 6 mages in that scenario does not lessen your guilt.

Cute. We all know the definition of innocent. My problem is that very few of those mages are actually innocent. I fought terrorists, blood mages and abominations. I didn't massacre helpless people or any "innocents". And after Anders' well thought out act of defiance, the templars were perfectly within their right to invoke the annulment.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Well, it may have been stupid, but suggesting that it is good to turn mages into emotionless slaves for profit is evil.

I feel that tranquilizing them is better than killing them. They may no longer have emotions, but they can still think and do something with their lives as a tranquil. If they are dead they have nothing.

If they died, no-one would be profiting from using their bodies as zombie labor.  Tranquiling a mage is at least as bad as a blood mage mind controlling someone. 

It is the same as saying we should lobotomize people on death row and use them as slave labor rather than executing them.  And if you're willing to say that, then I'm done responding to any of your posts.

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

If they died, no-one would be profiting from using their bodies as zombie labor.  Tranquiling a mage is at least as bad as a blood mage mind controlling someone. 

It is the same as saying we should lobotomize people on death row and use them as slave labor rather than executing them.  And if you're willing to say that, then I'm done responding to any of your posts.

Where are you getting that tranquils are mindless slaves? All tranquiling does is cut off their connection to the Fade, removing their ability to use magic, dream and have emotions. They can still think and converse and react to situations. They are like Vulcans in a way. In fact, tranquils are some of the best craftsman, rivaling even the dwarves, and are capable to enchantment. They are far from zombie slave labor.

Meanwhile, when a blood mage mind controls someone, that person has absolutely no control over their actions. It isn't the same at all.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

If they died, no-one would be profiting from using their bodies as zombie labor.  Tranquiling a mage is at least as bad as a blood mage mind controlling someone. 

It is the same as saying we should lobotomize people on death row and use them as slave labor rather than executing them.  And if you're willing to say that, then I'm done responding to any of your posts.

Where are you getting that tranquils are mindless slaves? All tranquiling does is cut off their connection to the Fade, removing their ability to use magic, dream and have emotions. They can still think and converse and react to situations. They are like Vulcans in a way. In fact, tranquils are some of the best craftsman, rivaling even the dwarves, and are capable to enchantment. They are far from zombie slave labor.

Meanwhile, when a blood mage mind controls someone, that person has absolutely no control over their actions. It isn't the same at all.

Do you honestly believe that your emotions are such a worthless part of you that having them ripped out is just fine?  Losing your self preservation instinct?  The ability to love?  Be curious?  Get angry when someone rapes you? 

That someone could take everything out of me that made me more than a thinking machine and then order me around until my body finally failed is utterly horrifying.  I'd much rather be dead, and I'm an atheist, so I believe in true death.  An Andrastian mage would likely believe that in death they could finally be reunited with family they'd been torn away from and know peace.  I just don't buy that more than a few mages here and there would rather be Tranquiled than dead.  And doing it to them because it's more profitable than killing them is simply vile.

[Cody]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

If they died, no-one would be profiting from using their bodies as zombie labor.  Tranquiling a mage is at least as bad as a blood mage mind controlling someone. 

It is the same as saying we should lobotomize people on death row and use them as slave labor rather than executing them.  And if you're willing to say that, then I'm done responding to any of your posts.

Where are you getting that tranquils are mindless slaves? All tranquiling does is cut off their connection to the Fade, removing their ability to use magic, dream and have emotions. They can still think and converse and react to situations. They are like Vulcans in a way. In fact, tranquils are some of the best craftsman, rivaling even the dwarves, and are capable to enchantment. They are far from zombie slave labor.

Meanwhile, when a blood mage mind controls someone, that person has absolutely no control over their actions. It isn't the same at all.

And yet the Tranquil are told what to do and they do it. Their sole purpose now is to answer to the templars. They lost their freewill and have no emotions to give a damn. Any thought of their own is worth nothing because they are forced to do w/e they are told and do not feel anything to give a damn.

They are the best type of slave in a sense. No emotions, no free will, no nothing. They are tools and are easily misused. Notice how Ander's mage buddy was turned into a tranquil and how happy he was when he was momentarily brought back? No sense of taste, colour, smell, or anything. You lose your humanity.

Death is preferable to that kind of fate.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 05 août 2011 - 11:46 .