404 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

If they died, no-one would be profiting from using their bodies as zombie labor.  Tranquiling a mage is at least as bad as a blood mage mind controlling someone. 

It is the same as saying we should lobotomize people on death row and use them as slave labor rather than executing them.  And if you're willing to say that, then I'm done responding to any of your posts.

Where are you getting that tranquils are mindless slaves? All tranquiling does is cut off their connection to the Fade, removing their ability to use magic, dream and have emotions. They can still think and converse and react to situations. They are like Vulcans in a way. In fact, tranquils are some of the best craftsman, rivaling even the dwarves, and are capable to enchantment. They are far from zombie slave labor.

Meanwhile, when a blood mage mind controls someone, that person has absolutely no control over their actions. It isn't the same at all.

No they are not  alike  Vulcans  are nowhere close -  Vulcans  can love,  Tranquil  cannot,   Vulcans can get angry -  Tranquil  cannot. Vulcans have a sense of humor  Tranquils do not and cannot.  Vulcans can  grieve-  A  Tranquil cannot.   Vulcans may strive to control and understand emotion but they are not emotionless where as Tranquil are. 


A blood mage mind control can be broken and the damage repaired. -  The process in which one is made Tranquil  this can not be done .  The two do not equate and  no amount of roundabout  logic is going to make that happen.    

Modifié par nitefyre410, 05 août 2011 - 11:56 .

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Do you honestly believe that your emotions are such a worthless part of you that having them ripped out is just fine?  Losing your self preservation instinct?  The ability to love?  Be curious?  Get angry when someone rapes you? 

That someone could take everything out of me that made me more than a thinking machine and then order me around until my body finally failed is utterly horrifying.  I'd much rather be dead, and I'm an atheist, so I believe in true death.  An Andrastian mage would likely believe that in death they could finally be reunited with family they'd been torn away from and know peace.  I just don't buy that more than a few mages here and there would rather be Tranquiled than dead.  And doing it to them because it's more profitable than killing them is simply vile.

Did I say that? No. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't think that tranquils should be used as sex slaves and I don't think tranquiling is easy peasey. I do think that tranquilization is preferable to death and that tranquils are not mindless slaves to be easily controlled. And an Andrastian mage would believe that being born with magic is a curse and that the Maker abandoned them because of the sins of the Tevinter magisters.

[Cody]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Do you honestly believe that your emotions are such a worthless part of you that having them ripped out is just fine?  Losing your self preservation instinct?  The ability to love?  Be curious?  Get angry when someone rapes you? 

That someone could take everything out of me that made me more than a thinking machine and then order me around until my body finally failed is utterly horrifying.  I'd much rather be dead, and I'm an atheist, so I believe in true death.  An Andrastian mage would likely believe that in death they could finally be reunited with family they'd been torn away from and know peace.  I just don't buy that more than a few mages here and there would rather be Tranquiled than dead.  And doing it to them because it's more profitable than killing them is simply vile.

Did I say that? No. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't think that tranquils should be used as sex slaves and I don't think tranquiling is easy peasey. I do think that tranquilization is preferable to death and that tranquils are not mindless slaves to be easily controlled. And an Andrastian mage would believe that being born with magic is a curse and that the Maker abandoned them because of the sins of the Tevinter magisters.

Read my post that I made mate. The point is they are easily controlled. The sole purpose they have is to obey the orders given to them by the templars and MAYBE The first enchanter. Again read my post doode.

[Zanallen]

CodyMelch wrote...

And yet the Tranquil are told what to do and they do it. Their sole purpose now is to answer to the templars. They lost their freewill and have no emotions to give a damn. Any thought of their own is worth nothing because they are forced to do w/e they are told and do not feel anything to give a damn.

They are the best type of slave in a sense. No emotions, no free will, no nothing. They are tools and are easily misused. Notice how Ander's mage buddy was turned into a tranquil and how happy he was when he was momentarily brought back? No sense of taste, colour, smell, or anything. You lose your humanity.

Death is preferable to that kind of fate.

Regular mages are also told what to do and they do it. Templars are told what to do and they do it. It is part of having a superior. And how do you know they have no free will? You don't. You are making up things to support your argument.

[Cody]

Zanallen wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

And yet the Tranquil are told what to do and they do it. Their sole purpose now is to answer to the templars. They lost their freewill and have no emotions to give a damn. Any thought of their own is worth nothing because they are forced to do w/e they are told and do not feel anything to give a damn.

They are the best type of slave in a sense. No emotions, no free will, no nothing. They are tools and are easily misused. Notice how Ander's mage buddy was turned into a tranquil and how happy he was when he was momentarily brought back? No sense of taste, colour, smell, or anything. You lose your humanity.

Death is preferable to that kind of fate.

Regular mages are also told what to do and they do it. Templars are told what to do and they do it. It is part of having a superior. And how do you know they have no free will? You don't. You are making up things to support your argument.

No I am not. They are easily controled and forced to do whatever the templars tell them to without question. They have no free will in a sense that they are basically robots obeying w/e their masters(Templars in this case) tell them to do. If they did have free will do you think they would allow being raped by templars and not tell ANYONE? As said before in this thread. One tranquil mage in the gallows says that she belongs to Ser Alrik now. She is his. Now tell me, does all that sound like free will?

[Zanallen]

nitefyre410 wrote...

No they are not  alike  Vulcans  are nowhere close -  Vulcans  can love,  Tranquil  cannot,   Vulcans can get angry -  Tranquil  cannot. Vulcans have a sense of humor  Tranquils do not and cannot.  Vulcans can  grieve-  A  Tranquil cannot.   Vulcans made strive to control and understand emotion but they are not emotionless where as Tranquil are. 

A blood mage mind control can be broken and the damage repaired. -  The process in which one is made Tranquil  this can not be done .  The two do not equate and  no amount of roundabout  logic is going to make that happen.    

I didn't compare blood mage dominance to making a tranquil. That other guy did. I merely said that tranquils retain full use of their logic and reasoning skills. Nothing in the lore states otherwise. They lose their emotions, but not their free will.

[Cody]

Zanallen wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

No they are not  alike  Vulcans  are nowhere close -  Vulcans  can love,  Tranquil  cannot,   Vulcans can get angry -  Tranquil  cannot. Vulcans have a sense of humor  Tranquils do not and cannot.  Vulcans can  grieve-  A  Tranquil cannot.   Vulcans made strive to control and understand emotion but they are not emotionless where as Tranquil are. 

A blood mage mind control can be broken and the damage repaired. -  The process in which one is made Tranquil  this can not be done .  The two do not equate and  no amount of roundabout  logic is going to make that happen.    

I didn't compare blood mage dominance to making a tranquil. That other guy did. I merely said that tranquils retain full use of their logic and reasoning skills. Nothing in the lore states otherwise. They lose their emotions, but not their free will.

Again yes they do. Otherwise I sincerly doubt they would let themselves be raped, beaten or god knows what else. Read my post above for more detail

[Zanallen]

CodyMelch wrote...

No I am not. They are easily controled and forced to do whatever the templars tell them to without question. They have no free will in a sense that they are basically robots obeying w/e their masters(Templars in this case) tell them to do. If they did have free will do you think they would allow being raped by templars and not tell ANYONE? As said before in this thread. One tranquil mage in the gallows says that she belongs to Ser Alrik now. She is his. Now tell me, does all that sound like free will?

Theyu don't care about it happening. They don't feel fear or anger or hatred. That doesn't make them mindless automotons. Yes, they can be abused. So can most anyone. That doesn't change the fact that they still maintain the ability to think and do something with their lives and I still don't think death is preferable.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Do you honestly believe that your emotions are such a worthless part of you that having them ripped out is just fine?  Losing your self preservation instinct?  The ability to love?  Be curious?  Get angry when someone rapes you? 

That someone could take everything out of me that made me more than a thinking machine and then order me around until my body finally failed is utterly horrifying.  I'd much rather be dead, and I'm an atheist, so I believe in true death.  An Andrastian mage would likely believe that in death they could finally be reunited with family they'd been torn away from and know peace.  I just don't buy that more than a few mages here and there would rather be Tranquiled than dead.  And doing it to them because it's more profitable than killing them is simply vile.

Did I say that? No. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't think that tranquils should be used as sex slaves and I don't think tranquiling is easy peasey. I do think that tranquilization is preferable to death and that tranquils are not mindless slaves to be easily controlled. And an Andrastian mage would believe that being born with magic is a curse and that the Maker abandoned them because of the sins of the Tevinter magisters.

You said it was preferable to death.  I listed reasons why I disagree with you.  Because all of those things can happen to the Tranquil.  And they can't even care about it once it's done. 

They may not be mindless, but they are without any volition.  The don't know fear, so they can't properly defend themselves.  They don't know happiness so they can't get any enjoyment out of life.  It is a wretched thing to do to someone.  And you said "at least they'd still be of use" which is just plain greedy.

The fact that they can still answer math questions and do complex tasks just makes them advanced robots. 

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

No they are not  alike  Vulcans  are nowhere close -  Vulcans  can love,  Tranquil  cannot,   Vulcans can get angry -  Tranquil  cannot. Vulcans have a sense of humor  Tranquils do not and cannot.  Vulcans can  grieve-  A  Tranquil cannot.   Vulcans made strive to control and understand emotion but they are not emotionless where as Tranquil are. 

A blood mage mind control can be broken and the damage repaired. -  The process in which one is made Tranquil  this can not be done .  The two do not equate and  no amount of roundabout  logic is going to make that happen.    

I didn't compare blood mage dominance to making a tranquil. That other guy did. I merely said that tranquils retain full use of their logic and reasoning skills. Nothing in the lore states otherwise. They lose their emotions, but not their free will.

But doesn't free will have an element of emotion in it, if it encompasses the breadth of human actions? How could someone truly claim to have free will if they don't have both logic and emotion?

Basically, a Tranquil will never be able to say "screw the rules, I'm doing what's right!" While there's some value in following authority and rules, it can translate badly. Tranquil unquestioningly do what their Templar superiors ask of them. There is no right or wrong, simply allowed and forbidden, that which is demanded and that which is not demanded. Think about how quickly Karl, a Libertarian mage like Anders, starts spouting the Chantry party line as soon as he becomes Tranquil. Or how various Tranquil walking about the Gallows actually speak of Alrik in reverence -- and these people were his sex slaves! Yes, they are talented enchanters, but they are cogs in a machine. They do what, and only what the Templars demand, no matter how reprehensible those demands are.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

Theyu don't care about it happening. They don't feel fear or anger or hatred. That doesn't make them mindless automotons. Yes, they can be abused. So can most anyone. That doesn't change the fact that they still maintain the ability to think and do something with their lives and I still don't think death is preferable.

But they can't even feel satisfaction at a job well done. They can feel nothing.  Enjoy nothing.

Owain doesn't even bother to find shelter when the Ferelden circle is overrun by abominations because he doesn't fear them.  He'd be wiped out in a second if anyone tried.

Emotions are what give our thoughts direction and meaning.  Without that, you migth as well be dead.

[Ryzaki]

According to Gaider they feel something similar to satisfaction at a job well done.

[Zanallen]

Yes yes. We all agree that the mage/templar relationship needs reformation and the installation of proper checks and balances. There needs to be more systems in place to eliminate mistreatment. That being said, I still find tranquility to be a better option than death and especially better than demon possession. As a tranquil they can become valued members of society and aid the fight against darkspawn or whoever else threatens.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

Theyu don't care about it happening. They don't feel fear or anger or hatred. That doesn't make them mindless automotons. Yes, they can be abused. So can most anyone. That doesn't change the fact that they still maintain the ability to think and do something with their lives and I still don't think death is preferable.

There is a pretty big difference between a Tranquil being abused and a normal person.  A normal person can try to fight back, or plot revenge, or get angry enough to tell someone what happened to them.  The Tranquil has no more than an academic idea that what is happening probably shouldn't be.  But it is anger and fear and such that give a person the strength to actually do something about it.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

Yes yes. We all agree that the mage/templar relationship needs reformation and the installation of proper checks and balances. There needs to be more systems in place to eliminate mistreatment. That being said, I still find tranquility to be a better option than death and especially better than demon possession. As a tranquil they can become valued members of society and aid the fight against darkspawn or whoever else threatens.

Sounds almost like the Qunari way of thinking.  Don't worry that you don't get to choose anything for yourself, just rest assured that the machine is making good use of you to keep things going.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

Yes yes. We all agree that the mage/templar relationship needs reformation and the installation of proper checks and balances. There needs to be more systems in place to eliminate mistreatment. That being said, I still find tranquility to be a better option than death and especially better than demon possession. As a tranquil they can become valued members of society and aid the fight against darkspawn or whoever else threatens.

Eh, losing the survival instinct fundamental to life makes the Tranquil option seem worse than death. Sure, they can perform functions, but they are utterly incapable of living on their own.

Do Tranquil receive monetary compensation for their work? I'm kind of curious about that.

[Zanallen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Eh, losing the survival instinct fundamental to life makes the Tranquil option seem worse than death. Sure, they can perform functions, but they are utterly incapable of living on their own.

Do Tranquil receive monetary compensation for their work? I'm kind of curious about that.

They receive room and board. Which is something that plenty of refugees didn't have access to.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Eh, losing the survival instinct fundamental to life makes the Tranquil option seem worse than death. Sure, they can perform functions, but they are utterly incapable of living on their own.

Do Tranquil receive monetary compensation for their work? I'm kind of curious about that.

They receive room and board. Which is something that plenty of refugees didn't have access to.

So do slaves. Just sayin'.

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sounds almost like the Qunari way of thinking.  Don't worry that you don't get to choose anything for yourself, just rest assured that the machine is making good use of you to keep things going.

Their other choices are death or demonic possession. Remember that making mages tranquil was originally the option for those unwilling to undertake the Harrowing or those known to be too weak to survive the event. Without that, they would just be killed or become abominations, kill a bunch of people and then be killed anyway.

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

No they are not  alike  Vulcans  are nowhere close -  Vulcans  can love,  Tranquil  cannot,   Vulcans can get angry -  Tranquil  cannot. Vulcans have a sense of humor  Tranquils do not and cannot.  Vulcans can  grieve-  A  Tranquil cannot.   Vulcans made strive to control and understand emotion but they are not emotionless where as Tranquil are. 

A blood mage mind control can be broken and the damage repaired. -  The process in which one is made Tranquil  this can not be done .  The two do not equate and  no amount of roundabout  logic is going to make that happen.    

I didn't compare blood mage dominance to making a tranquil. That other guy did. I merely said that tranquils retain full use of their logic and reasoning skills. Nothing in the lore states otherwise. They lose their emotions, but not their free will.

So then  if they  retain free will - they should be able to  -  logical of course  -   concluded that some forcing  them  to  having sex with  them is not right but  also is  againist their own sense of self preservation.   They can't  and here is why ... You - yourself  have to want to live -  you have to have the desire not to be harmed . Because who in there right mind and sound logic would desire to be harmed  and voilated in such a manner  that logically does not make anysense.  

Tranquil can not make the logical conclusion because they themselves lack the desire  not to be harmed because they are no longer able to feel  of the emotions that trigger a fight or flight response. Such as shall we say  fear of a templar tearing the clothes and forceable  voilating their person... which always painful experience but sense that pain does not  trigger a emotional response. ... It all goes hand and hand.    

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 août 2011 - 12:41 .

[Ulicus]

"I'd rather die." - Warden
"Were you a tranquil, you might feel differently." - Ostagar Tranquil

"I would prefer not to die" -- Owain

Who am I to tell them that they're wrong?

[Zanallen]

nitefyre410 wrote...

So then  if they  retain free will - they should be able to  -  logical of course  -   concluded that some forcing  them  to  having sex with  them is not right but  also is  againist their own sense of self preservation.   They can't  and here is why ... You - yourself  have to want to live -  you have to have the desire not to be harmed . Because who in there right mind and sound logic would desire to be harmed  and voilated in such a manner  that logically does not make anysense.  

Tranquil can not make the logical conclusion because they themselves lack the desire  not to be harmed because they are no longer able to feel  of the emotions that trigger a fight or flight response. Such as shall we say  fear of a templar tearing the clothes and forceable  voilating their person... which always painful experience but sense that pain does not  trigger a emotional response to pain.   

Do you know for a fact that they are being physically harmed? Hear me out here. I assume that tranquils can still feel pain or discomfort. They would know if someone is hurting them. They don't feel fear or anger at being hurt, but the pain is still there. As such, they should be able to actively remove themselves from situations were pain is involved. However, if Alrik was simply having sex, not violent throw them to the floor and debase them sex, but just sex, I am not sure how they would respond. Don't get me wrong. It is still a deplorable act, but it would explain their reactions to the situation. As I have said before, Tranquil are NOT unthinking zombies with no will of their own.

[Zanallen]

Ulicus wrote...

"I'd rather die." - Warden
"Were you a tranquil, you might feel differently." - Ostagar Tranquil

"I would prefer not to die" -- Owain

Who am I to tell them that they're wrong?

And Owain chose tranquility because he didn't want to face the harrowing and potential possession and death.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

"I'd rather die." - Warden
"Were you a tranquil, you might feel differently." - Ostagar Tranquil

"I would prefer not to die" -- Owain

Who am I to tell them that they're wrong?

And Owain chose tranquility because he didn't want to face the harrowing and potential possession and death.

Yes, and Karl said to kill him during the brief moments he got his feelings back.  Perhaps a few mages would fear death more than loss of self, but I doubt it's very many.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...
Tranquil are NOT unthinking zombies with no will of their own.

There's a difference between unthinking and will of your own.  No one has said they are mindless, only emotionless.  They lack free will because you have to actually "want" to do sometihng in order to have "will."  They lack self determination.  They lack even the ability to be upset at what someone else determines for them.