404 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Yes, and Karl said to kill him during the brief moments he got his feelings back.  Perhaps a few mages would fear death more than loss of self, but I doubt it's very many.

And you have no proof of that statement. Karl wanted to die rather than serve the templars, especially Alrik. That doesn't mean that another mage would choose the same. Especially not a mage who knew he woudn't be able to handle the Harrowing.

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

So then  if they  retain free will - they should be able to  -  logical of course  -   concluded that some forcing  them  to  having sex with  them is not right but  also is  againist their own sense of self preservation.   They can't  and here is why ... You - yourself  have to want to live -  you have to have the desire not to be harmed . Because who in there right mind and sound logic would desire to be harmed  and voilated in such a manner  that logically does not make anysense.  

Tranquil can not make the logical conclusion because they themselves lack the desire  not to be harmed because they are no longer able to feel  of the emotions that trigger a fight or flight response. Such as shall we say  fear of a templar tearing the clothes and forceable  voilating their person... which always painful experience but sense that pain does not  trigger a emotional response to pain.   

Do you know for a fact that they are being physically harmed? Hear me out here. I assume that tranquils can still feel pain or discomfort. They would know if someone is hurting them. They don't feel fear or anger at being hurt, but the pain is still there. As such, they should be able to actively remove themselves from situations were pain is involved. However, if Alrik was simply having sex, not violent throw them to the floor and debase them sex, but just sex, I am not sure how they would respond. Don't get me wrong. It is still a deplorable act, but it would explain their reactions to the situation. As I have said before, Tranquil are NOT unthinking zombies with no will of their own.

Okay I see your line of  thinking ...  Lets use an example   Remember growing  up  when you were baby or toddler and you put hand near the stove. Your mother at that point  tell us   "No ... Hot"   being  child you touch it  anyway and get burned with causes a  physical sensation of pain.  Now that physical sensation of  pain the brain registers as emotion pain  to which you the child cry for your mother.  Mother comes and comforts  you the child  replacing the feeling of pain with feeling of comfort.    Now a tranquil can not make the distinction because the lack the emotional response of Pain.  

Now they may be able to physically responed to  the touch  but there is emotional response of lust or digust for them go.    "GET **** OFF  ME"   or   "hmmm  lets find some place quiet"     They lack the emotional  response the physical sensation to be conscent or not conscent


I see where  your line of thinking is at though

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 août 2011 - 01:09 .

[Vit246]

Ulicus wrote...

"I'd rather die." - Warden
"Were you a tranquil, you might feel differently." - Ostagar Tranquil

"I would prefer not to die" -- Owain

Who am I to tell them that they're wrong?

Karl would prefer to die.

And unless I'm talking to weak-willed mages who voluntarily chose Tranquility out of their momentary free will without input by templars or the chantry, I can tell them they are wrong. That they are incapable of thinking for themselves because they can no longer feel emotion.

Modifié par Vit246, 06 août 2011 - 01:33 .

[Zanallen]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Okay I see your line of  thinking ...  Lets use an example   Remember growing   when you were baby or toddler and you put hand near the stove. Your mother at that point  tell us   "No ... Hot"   being  child you touch it  anyway and get burned with causes a  physical sensation of pain.  Now that physical sensation of  pain the brain registers as emotion pain  to which you the child cry for your mother.  Mother comes and comforts  you the child  replacing the feeling of pain with feeling of comfort.    Now a tranquil can not make the distinction because the lack the emotional response of Pain.  

Now they may be able to physically responed to  the touch  but there is emotional response of lust or digust for them go.    "GET **** OFF  ME"   or   "hmmm  lets find some place quiet"   


I see where line of thinking is at thought  

That is a possiblity. It is hard to say how the Tranquil respond to pain. If they experience discomfort, despite whether or not they link it any emotional response, I would imagine that they would strive to remove the discomfort. A dog with a shock collar will be electricuted if it barks. It learns not to bark to avoid the pain. There is no comfort or emotional response. It is a simple association of barking with pain. I imagine the tranquil would be similar. When he does that, it hurts. I should attempt to prevent him from doing that. Then, because they still maintain logical and congnitive function, they should be able to find a way to prevent the pain.

But really, the whole situation was handled poorly. The mission implied it and we recieved confirmation from a random NPC. Something as big as a templar forcing himself on a tranquil should have played a larger role.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Yes, and Karl said to kill him during the brief moments he got his feelings back.  Perhaps a few mages would fear death more than loss of self, but I doubt it's very many.

And you have no proof of that statement. Karl wanted to die rather than serve the templars, especially Alrik. That doesn't mean that another mage would choose the same. Especially not a mage who knew he woudn't be able to handle the Harrowing.

Let's backtrack a bit and say that the Templars are the ones forcing the Harrowing on the mages in the first place.  Owain would probably have preferred a nice quiet life in the country growing apples to either being Tranquiled or Harrowed.  So the Templars presented him with two lousy choices and he took the one that scared him least.  And he ended up a soulless worker who doesn't even care to get into hiding when the circle is overrun by abominations.  Not a great situation overall.

For mages who are afraid of their Harrowing, perhaps being Tranquil sounds like a better option.  Perhaps being somewhat useful to society is better than being possessed by a demon and then killed by the Templars watching.  It is still an artificial choice however, forced by the Templars and their policies.

A Harrowed mage, trained enough to have control of his/her magic is pretty safe from being Tranquiled.  Now, the only way they can be Tranquiled is during an RoA if they survive or because the Templars come up with sufficient evidence of wrongdoing to get permission, or if the Templars simply break the law and do it anyway.  Now we're talking about a mage who will end up giving up their "soul" because someone else doesn't think they're doing a good job taking care of it.  I'm pretty sure that mage isn't inclined to then have those who steal his "self" being able to get a few more years of work out of his body.

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Okay I see your line of  thinking ...  Lets use an example   Remember growing   when you were baby or toddler and you put hand near the stove. Your mother at that point  tell us   "No ... Hot"   being  child you touch it  anyway and get burned with causes a  physical sensation of pain.  Now that physical sensation of  pain the brain registers as emotion pain  to which you the child cry for your mother.  Mother comes and comforts  you the child  replacing the feeling of pain with feeling of comfort.    Now a tranquil can not make the distinction because the lack the emotional response of Pain.  

Now they may be able to physically responed to  the touch  but there is emotional response of lust or digust for them go.    "GET **** OFF  ME"   or   "hmmm  lets find some place quiet"   


I see where line of thinking is at thought  

That is a possiblity. It is hard to say how the Tranquil respond to pain. If they experience discomfort, despite whether or not they link it any emotional response, I would imagine that they would strive to remove the discomfort. A dog with a shock collar will be electricuted if it barks. It learns not to bark to avoid the pain. There is no comfort or emotional response. It is a simple association of barking with pain. I imagine the tranquil would be similar. When he does that, it hurts. I should attempt to prevent him from doing that. Then, because they still maintain logical and congnitive function, they should be able to find a way to prevent the pain.

But really, the whole situation was handled poorly. The mission implied it and we recieved confirmation from a random NPC. Something as big as a templar forcing himself on a tranquil should have played a larger role.

Yes it  is.   Something  like  Tranquility should never be an option  becasue the human mind is very very  complex  and emotion and logic are  alot more closely tied together than many would think.  Too many abuse - to man y questions. Its a Pandora's Box and it should   never been on  table from the start.

The real  long last solution to misuse of  blood mage is  education, education,education. The more you know about it, the better you understand  it- the better you can defended against the pitfalls and demons that come along with it.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 août 2011 - 01:21 .

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

Let's backtrack a bit and say that the Templars are the ones forcing the Harrowing on the mages in the first place.  Owain would probably have preferred a nice quiet life in the country growing apples to either being Tranquiled or Harrowed.  So the Templars presented him with two lousy choices and he took the one that scared him least.  And he ended up a soulless worker who doesn't even care to get into hiding when the circle is overrun by abominations.  Not a great situation overall.

For mages who are afraid of their Harrowing, perhaps being Tranquil sounds like a better option.  Perhaps being somewhat useful to society is better than being possessed by a demon and then killed by the Templars watching.  It is still an artificial choice however, forced by the Templars and their policies.

A Harrowed mage, trained enough to have control of his/her magic is pretty safe from being Tranquiled.  Now, the only way they can be Tranquiled is during an RoA if they survive or because the Templars come up with sufficient evidence of wrongdoing to get permission, or if the Templars simply break the law and do it anyway.  Now we're talking about a mage who will end up giving up their "soul" because someone else doesn't think they're doing a good job taking care of it.  I'm pretty sure that mage isn't inclined to then have those who steal his "self" being able to get a few more years of work out of his body.

But the Harrowing is the final test in a  mage's training. It is to ensure that a mage will not accidently fall into demonic possession. Without it, there is no guarantee that Owain wouldn't have become an abomination and killed a bunch of people before being put down.

[Zanallen]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yes it  is.   Something  like  Tranquility should never be an option  becasue the human mind is very very  complex  and emotion and logic are  alot more closely tied together than many would think.  Too many abuse - to man y questions. Its a Pandora's Box and it should   never been on  table from the start.

The real  long last solution to misuse of  blood mage is  education, education,education. The more you know about it, the better you understand  it- the better you can defended against the pitfalls and demons that come along with it.

And if people are unwilling to undergo the training or too weak to handle a demon despite training?

[Ulicus]

Vit246 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

"I'd rather die." - Warden
"Were you a tranquil, you might feel differently." - Ostagar Tranquil

"I would prefer not to die" -- Owain

Who am I to tell them that they're wrong?

Karl would prefer to die.

I would ask what gives someone the right and authority to decide that a life without emotion has no value? That only those with emotion appear to value emotion does not make emotion inherently valuable. If anything, the opposite is implied.

Viewing the tranquil as "worse-than-dead robotic non-people" is exactly what those templars who abuse them do. And I'm just not down with that at all. As far as I'm concerned, the tranquil are people and deserve to be treated as such.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

But the Harrowing is the final test in a  mage's training. It is to ensure that a mage will not accidently fall into demonic possession. Without it, there is no guarantee that Owain wouldn't have become an abomination and killed a bunch of people before being put down.

The Harrowing is a brutal test devised by the Chantry/Templars and imposed when they decide and how they decide.  I am not convinced that it is the best or only way.  And certainly forcing it on someone who doesn't feel ready is not something that most people would consider a good idea.  Who is able to know for a fact that a bit more time or training wouldn't help an otherwise doomed mage to pass?

Also, according to DA lore, there is never a guarantee that a mage won't become an abomination, so the Harrowing just makes the Chantry feel better.

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yes it  is.   Something  like  Tranquility should never be an option  becasue the human mind is very very  complex  and emotion and logic are  alot more closely tied together than many would think.  Too many abuse - to man y questions. Its a Pandora's Box and it should   never been on  table from the start.

The real  long last solution to misuse of  blood mage is  education, education,education. The more you know about it, the better you understand  it- the better you can defended against the pitfalls and demons that come along with it.

And if people are unwilling to undergo the training or too weak to handle a demon despite training?

can't force a person to go the school ,   They are should allowed to live freely,  The simple needs to be a combined  unified  policing force of Mages and Templars where that equiped to handle the ones that get out of line.  The Laws should be  applied equally murder is murder does not matter if it is done with a  knife or a blood magic.  If  mage gets too out line  and it gets to point of no return - Lethal force can and will be used, the Same if it was a normal criminal.  

The Circle is not a bad comcept  in of it self but they should be to go home, see mom and dad,  have  girlfriend or boyfriend  have and raise a family.  Another issue with Circle is that they are not learning life  skills.  Lets if we do it the school way they will learn magic but also life skills if they wanted  move in policing force, etc, etc.    From what I have seen of the Apostates they have been control  over the magic than  alot of Circle Mages , like morrigan ,  merril or  The Dalish  Keepers.  

For good or Ill they will be free and that is important thing.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Zanallen wrote...

But the Harrowing is the final test in a mage's training. It is to ensure that a mage will not accidently fall into demonic possession. Without it, there is no guarantee that Owain wouldn't have become an abomination and killed a bunch of people before being put down.

The Harrowing is a test to see whether or not the mage can resist a summoned demon. It does not ensure that the mage can resist another demon. There is no such guarantee. It is assumed unlikely, but not impossible, that the mage will be possessed by another demon.

[GavrielKay]

Ulicus wrote...

Viewing the tranquil as "worse-than-dead robotic non-people" is exactly what those templars who abuse them do. And I'm just not down with that at all. As far as I'm concerned, the tranquil are people and deserve to be treated as such.

Um, huh?  Thinking that the Templars shouldn't be allowed to create Tranquils is pretty much the opposite of thinking they should be allowed to abuse them.  The fact that they are so easy to abuse only invites trouble.

Basically Tranquility allows the Templars to "kill a mage" and still have him be useful.

It reminds me of an old Star Trek episode where Kirk ended up destroying the planet's happy little war machine.  The machine would calculate casualties and the leaders would then kill that many people.  The people became so distanced from the horrors of actual war that they were willing to keep killing a few here and there rather than work out an end to it.  They could continue their war without demolished buildings and wrecked civilizations.  It was nuts. 

The Templars get to pat themselves on the back for not killng a mage while still removing most of what makes him an individual.  It is more impersonal and less messy than killing the mage.  So no one has to go through the trouble to think up actual solutions.

[Zanallen]

I can't get behind that. Mages need to be policed in some variety. We can gun owners get a license. Magic is far more dangerous than any gun. They should be forced to attend training for long enough that people can be reasonably sure that they won't be tricked into possession. That is what the Harrowing is designed for. It is a way to make sure that a mage understands the risks and that they no how to avoid possession.

[Zanallen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

But the Harrowing is the final test in a mage's training. It is to ensure that a mage will not accidently fall into demonic possession. Without it, there is no guarantee that Owain wouldn't have become an abomination and killed a bunch of people before being put down.

The Harrowing is a test to see whether or not the mage can resist a summoned demon. It does not ensure that the mage can resist another demon. There is no such guarantee. It is assumed unlikely, but not impossible, that the mage will be possessed by another demon.

Of course. It is the final test and a practical application of techniques to resist demons. Nothing guarantees that it won't happen; however, it does make it less likely since they now have experience in the matter.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

I can't get behind that. Mages need to be policed in some variety. We can gun owners get a license. Magic is far more dangerous than any gun. They should be forced to attend training for long enough that people can be reasonably sure that they won't be tricked into possession. That is what the Harrowing is designed for. It is a way to make sure that a mage understands the risks and that they no how to avoid possession.

I would say the young mage and his/her family should be strongly advised of the benefits of training.  Then if they still refuse to be trained, they should be allowed to simply leave.

You can't force someone to learn.  And you shouldn't say "learn or die."  But you can say, "look, you're a danger to yourself and others, we can help you control it, and if you're not interested in being safe to be around then you'll just have to not be around."

Given as a decent choice vs. a lousy choice I doubt you'll have much trouble selling it.  Assuming it's a school and not a prison.  And once the mage passes whatever qualifies as the final exam (some version of a Harrowing or whatever) then they live free and self determined lives.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 06 août 2011 - 02:06 .

[Zanallen]

I would institute the circle as a training center with further benefits if the mage wants to stay on. It would be governed by the state as a way to train and keep a mage force. However, I would enforce licensing in order to give regular people a piece of mind. I would also keep the phylacteries and keep laws in place where mages couldn't hold office.

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

I can't get behind that. Mages need to be policed in some variety. We can gun owners get a license. Magic is far more dangerous than any gun. They should be forced to attend training for long enough that people can be reasonably sure that they won't be tricked into possession. That is what the Harrowing is designed for. It is a way to make sure that a mage understands the risks and that they no how to avoid possession.

Even mages that pass the  Harrowing  can still  be possessed.    They are being  policed ...  think of it like  SWAT. you have regular police then SWAT. SWAT is called when the situation  is out of the normal polices control.  Now that does not mean there is SEPERATE set of laws for Mages and normal people. If history has shown anything Separate  but equal is  and will never work.  They  abide by the same rules - a Mage Division of sorts they are equiped to deal with and sudued and yes in necessary lethal force is an option.   

The Harrowing is a complete joke its like the Witch hunts in some sense...  Tie stones to her - throw in her  the river if see floats kill her  - if she sinks and downs... she innocent. 

The Harrowing  -  Well I am give the worst possible understanding of demons and the fade, then I am going threw  into fade.   You make not survive... if you make it out well  we can't really be sure if you possessed or not so we may have "neutilize" you or Tranquillze.   

In the army  the put you under live fire training  but the actually try to kill you... 

Bettter example... A   Training sword  made of the wood - yes its word but if strike with it damn while hurts and you get the point  that if it was really sword you would be dead etc.   

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 août 2011 - 02:18 .

[Zanallen]

The problem is that you do need at least a few laws that only apply to mages. Unless you expand the laws to include, say, mind control into something like abduction. There are a number of things that mages can do that normal people simply cannot, nor even create a reasonable facsimile of. And what about phylacteries? Without them, how is your SWAT supposed to track down a renegade mage? Will they form a posse and use good ol' detective skills? And how many people will die while they seek the mage out?

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

I would institute the circle as a training center with further benefits if the mage wants to stay on. It would be governed by the state as a way to train and keep a mage force. However, I would enforce licensing in order to give regular people a piece of mind. I would also keep the phylacteries and keep laws in place where mages couldn't hold office.

Okay see now we are workiing with something here.. The Phylacteries  are like a  the sex offender registery but I would not keep for all mages just those the needed to keep track  mainly the offenders. Okay I might be able to give  a little  on the pylacteries  because it could be see as say a lisences number... but I have to think more on it....I'm still iffy.  

The public office  thing - if there are going to  equal the deserve  equal representation.

[nitefyre410]

Zanallen wrote...

The problem is that you do need at least a few laws that only apply to mages. Unless you expand the laws to include, say, mind control into something like abduction. There are a number of things that mages can do that normal people simply cannot, nor even create a reasonable facsimile of. And what about phylacteries? Without them, how is your SWAT supposed to track down a renegade mage? Will they form a posse and use good ol' detective skills? And how many people will die while they seek the mage out?

the beauty of law is that it is can be changed or re written.    Rape   now includes a mage mind controling  some one into bed and  would be akin to slipping a person the date rape drug. 


I answered the second question in anotther post...stop resonding so fast 

[Shadow Fox]

To me personally the end game was choosing which ending I prefered since both "sides" where equally unappealing to me.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

I would institute the circle as a training center with further benefits if the mage wants to stay on. It would be governed by the state as a way to train and keep a mage force. However, I would enforce licensing in order to give regular people a piece of mind. I would also keep the phylacteries and keep laws in place where mages couldn't hold office.

Without any further discussion into the nitty-gritty details, I actually find this idea adequate. Glad we can agree.

[dragonflight288]

Steps to reform the templar order and the circle of magi.

Step 1: Stop recruiting only religous zealots. Start recruiting people with a strong moral code about what's right and what isn't.

Step 2: Create a division of Seekers near every Circle. The Knight Commander must check in with the Seekers at least once or twice a month and report on the situation with the mages and the templars. This forces the Knight-Commander to oversee how each side gets along and potential abuses.

Step 3: Allow the First Enchanter, Senior Mages, and plain Enchanters the right to go about the local town and do good deeds. Do this long enough and the common man and woman may get over their fear of mages being evil.

Step 4: Allow the Harrowed mages the right to get married and have relationships without permission from the Grand Cleric of a country. They may have to live in the Circle, but they can have the freedom of starting a family without a templar executing or tranquilizing him/her out of fear.

Step 5: Remove the Right of Tranquility from the Harrowing. When a mage is brought before the Harrowing and they feel they aren't ready, allow them time to continue their studies and magical abilities. Be patient. If some mage feels uncomfortable all their life, then they can have the choice to be a 60 year old apprentice studying with the 8 year olds. Tranquility should only be for volunteers or the absolute worst punishment a mage can suffer if they are caught using blood magic to control someone's mind, assuming they aren't killed in the following fight.

Step 6: Once a mage passes their Harrowing, allow them the freedom to travel their country or city-state and start earning a living. They can always return to the Circle to teach apprentices or to work as an enchanter.

[Ulicus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Um, huh?  Thinking that the Templars shouldn't be allowed to create Tranquils is pretty much the opposite of thinking they should be allowed to abuse them.

To be clear, I'm objecting solely to the position that tranquility is a "fate worse than death" that transforms a mage into a non-person.

The tranquil are capable of reasoning, forming opinions and, yes, holding preferences. They are not robots. They are people.

Do I think the rite of tranquility is sunshine and flowers? No. Would I prefer an alternative? Of course. Do I think it's awful to fundamentally change a person on that level? Yes... but I'm not going to insist that they cease to a person because they don't experience the world in the same way as I do. They continue to live and have a right to that life.