404 réponses à ce sujet

[iggy4566]

The thing is neither side is right.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

nerdage wrote...

The whole point of the mages versus templars conflict is that there's no clear-cut 'right', it was written that way, so you're not going to logically prove one side is the right one, it's just a question of personal judgement. I'm adamantly pro-mage, but I can see the chantry's reasoning, and I don't really see how anything in the OP answers those reasons.

A blood mage can control another's mind, with that they have the potential to do almost anything, and any mage has the potential to use blood magic. The only way to truly contain a threat like that is to control all the mages. They can still be used when they're controlled, the chantry has used the circles as a fighting force before (with the Qunari), and their potential danger to the rest of the world is greatly reduced in the circles. To let them loose would mean losing both a powerful resource/ally and endangering the rest of the world.

So to work that into the Star Wars analogy, wouldn't it be better if all force users were controlled be the republic? Those who turn to the dark side could be dealt with before they become a threat to the galaxy, but jedi could still be trained to defend the republic.

I still don't support the Chantry, but you'd have to answer those issues before you could say the mages are the logical 'right' choice, otherwise both sides have reason.

This, basically. I'm ardently pro-mage, but Tevinter is the absolute wrong way to go about fixing the problem and a pretty good argument against mages controlling their own. I also get the feeling that Kirkwall was exceptionally unusual in that the Templars were given too much power. Chantry laws state that a mage who has completed his or her Harrowing cannot be made Tranquil against their will, for example, so there are laws in place to protect mages as well.

That being said, after my first playthrough, pro-mage or not, I couldn't do anything but support the Templars in the end. At least there I was able to reduce some of the senseless slaughter.

[Ryoufu]

Kazzorswan wrote...

I have no idea why anyone would side with templars. They are the sole reason for blood magic.

Wrong. Blame the Demons that entice them to use blood magic.

Think about all the blood mages Hawke has killed most if not all were driven to demons because they were so desperate to escape their templar captors

It's Mages fault for resorting to demons and blood magic. you'd think that being mages, they could just hurl some lightning bolts at them <_<

I know the the tevinter imperium f'd up but a government where mages are revered as peace keepers would be a far more stable one.

hmm, I wouldnt agree to that because, I could picture the Mages abusing their powers more than the Templars

first off, I would like to point out that both parties make somewhat good points to justify their intentions. That being said, you assume that because Templars exist, Mages are all morally good. Wrong. *some* mages use blood magic as a means to help(Merrill,albeit went very wrong) and Malcom Hawke(refer to legacy dlc) while others just use it to make themselves more powerful(the numerous blood mages Hawke encounters in his everyday life in the fantastic city of Kirkwall). And what about the Mage that murdered Leandra? Was he forced to use blood magic by the Templars? How about Huon? As blood magic is already feared by a lot of people, Mages make the situation worse by using blood magic to summon demons. Don't you think this is reason enough for Templars to take precautions around mages and protect innocents? I mean, if you found out that your friend was capable of using an ouiji board, and because of the horror movies that you seem to like, show that she can summon a demon that can kill or haunt you, would you stay as far away as possible while warning your other friends about it?(bad example,I know.i just finisished rewatching paranormal activity:unsure:). The reason there is even a Circle is to help Mages control their powers.(If I'm wrong about this,feel free to correct me.) Let's not forget that it was Anders' fault for igniting the war in the first place. Face it, that didn't really improve the image of the Mage community. So in short, Mages "created" this climate of fear that you mentioned.

As for the Templars...
Pointed out by numerous character interactions in DA2, not all Mages are evil. Although capable of being extremely powerful, wise Mages know when it is appropriate to use magic. Single-minded Templars are what make Mages fear the Templar Order. It is to my understanding that the Templar Order is supposed to be the militant arm of the Chantry. As followers of the Maker, the second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him", should be followed. Sadly, the Divine in Val Royeaux deemed this interpretation of the second commandment to be an act of corruption. This, and the following events, led to the separation of the Tevinter Circle of Magi from the Chantry. Thus, a Butterfly effect--use your imagination. "Modern" Templars have been taught that magic is an act of heresy towards the Maker causing them to enact the "will" of the Maker. They ASSUME all apostates are a threat but don't really KNOW if they are a threat.


*phew* Well thats how I see the whole Mage-Templar war. Neither side is right nor wrong.

Modifié par Ryoufu, 01 août 2011 - 11:12 .

[Ryzaki]

Sundance31us wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

I'm still waiting for the part where my mind will be changed.

I side with templars whenever it's appropriate to my Hawke...which is most of the time.

Same here. There's nothing quite a satifying as playing a mage Hawke who sides with the Templars.

Agreed. 

Now if there was a kill em all until the survivors start to see some damn sense option I'd pick that too. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 août 2011 - 11:17 .

[ArcanistLibram]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The best arguement for siding with the Templars is to choose the Mages.

Funny, this is the exact reason why I sided with the Templars on my second playthrough after siding with the Mages on my first playthrough.

[Fleapants]

Every -single- mage that you encounter except three (and two more met in a cutscene near the end) turns out to be a blood mage, no matter what choices you make.

Burn them all, if only for the rigid plot.

[Kazzorswan]

Ryoufu wrote...


It's Mages fault for resorting to demons and blood magic. you'd think that being mages, they could just hurl some lightning bolts at them <_<

If you saw the battle at the end of act 3 with the mages fighting against the templars, all the spells are missing and the templars are just slaughtering them, maybe you and your party members are just super awesome that they can cast effectivly.

[R0vena]

The reason to support mages or templars depends on the type of Hawke you play and nothing more. After all, it is a role-playing game. I personally supported both sides equal amount of times depending on my hero character. And I agree with Elthina "Both sides make good points, both have flaws".

[Huntress]

I'm a pro mage type of person, even tho in DAO I played only 1, I always wanted mages to have a normal life like everyone also. Why? why not?

About been good or evil anyone can fit in that category, there is always good people and bad people, and not all the bad people uses magic. So should we start cutting off arms and leg's to prevent "Future"evil people from using any type of weapon or from running away from justice?

So the question is why only mages are seen as evil when anyone can be one?
Because of blood magic? Then why do mages turn into blood-magic users? for the heck of it? because they look good while a demon rip them apart from the inside out? there are many reason of why mages turn into blood magic and is not for pleasure or because make them look dashing. ( in kirkwall and ferelden)

Yes magic can be a fearful thing but it can do good aswell, not everyone is weak to listen to demons, not everyone wants power or enslave others.
Look at Merril she is a blood mage and yet she do not wish to kill every single Human because her people lost their History or because the elves are seen as second class citizen and only good for 2 things, to be a servants or slaves.
Merril was ready to die for restoring elves history and only wanted someone strong enough to help her or kill her if she failed in her quest. So again are all the blood mages bad?

Tavinter mages uses blood magic for power, to survive in tavinter you NEED power ("When in rome do as the romans do")
If something we learn from them is that the imperium hasn't fall because of magic or demons.
Will it continue that way? I don't know but some how this mages are able to survive and is not thanks to the chantry/templars or circles.

Why haven't this mages killed each other for more than 800 years if mages are so destructive? Why isn't tavinter over run by demons? How is the tavinter imperium mages still thriving if magic is so harmful and not one is watching over them?

Been apart for so long from tavinter magisters and alot of brain wash has made a new type of mages in ferelden and probably many other places and this mages want one thing, to be free
( libertarian), to be acepted (equetarians), to live ( like anyone) and to make their own choices.

My characters will fight for this type of mages even if she is not one herself, everyone deserve freedom, everyone should make their own choices.

Modifié par Huntress, 02 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[dragonfire100]

DinoSteve wrote...

as long as I can kill Anders I'll side with whoever

Why would you want to kill anders? hes your best healer.

[Ryoufu]

Kazzorswan wrote...

Ryoufu wrote...


It's Mages fault for resorting to demons and blood magic. you'd think that being mages, they could just hurl some lightning bolts at them <_<

If you saw the battle at the end of act 3 with the mages fighting against the templars, all the spells are missing and the templars are just slaughtering them, maybe you and your party members are just super awesome that they can cast effectivly.

okaaay...Im just going to assume you're talking about the cutscene in the gallows where the Templars broke through the gates. let's talk about this battle in a more technical manner. Now we all know that being a Templar means that you are resistant to magic to an extent due to the lyrium in the body. If Mages are so capable of nuking the battlefield, why didn't they do it? I'm aware that only higher leveled mages are able to cast such destructive force, but why shouldn't a weaker mage be able to at least be able to throw a fireball to distract enemies if they're grouped together? Mages aren't necessarily trained in combat formations and whatnot. they wouldn't know what to do if the enemy breached their defensive line. So,my question is, why not just summon a firestorm or a tempest at a chokepoint?why resort to blood magic when that further risks your survival? I mean sure blood magic is a stronger force of magic but why not just use the elements to their combat advantage? Like use walking bomb on some poor sap and push him back to his buddies:?. If the Mages positioned themselves in a manner where they have the element of surprise, then surely they would've massacred the Templars.Blood magic isn't always the answer y'know;)

Don't get me wrong;I love mages but the ones in DA2 are a little bit on the crazy side

Modifié par Ryoufu, 02 août 2011 - 06:27 .

[electricfish]

I'm surprised I haven't seen this point brought up a lot, but you forget that in Thedas, magic is terrifying to regular people. It's like an 80 year old person being taught to use a computer program for the first time. It's scary and you're not quite sure what will happen if you press the wrong button. Same idea with having a conversation or argument with a mage. They could Winter's Grasp you at any time.

At the end of Act 3, who do you think the commoners, merchants, and nobles will blame for the "incident?" *Mages* caused the Incident and it doesn't matter that technically there is no relation to Orsino or the Kirkwall Circle. You can kill the one responsible, but they've pretty much unleashed a commoner's worst nightmare about a mage to come true. There's going to be rioting and rebelling of a different kind of the Templars don't get sh-t under control.

Unfortunately for Orsino, he hasn't done a very good job of being First Enchanter and keeping his own mages under control. There are stupid amounts of escaped mages that you fight and basically all of them have decided it's a good idea to get help from demons or kill people because they really like staying in Kirkwall for some reason.
Remember his speech? "I know you fear us, but we really aren't that bad guys. ):" At that point in Act 3, he's basically been proven wrong on so many levels, he probably shouldn't be First Enchanter anymore.

[Alright-Television]

There is actually right and wrong, and it boils down to the fact that apostates and circle mages are not the same thing. The conflict is not between the templars and mages, it's between the templars and unregistered mages. The circle mages only enter the conflict, unwillingly I might add, at the end of the game. So the right thing to do is siding with the circle mages, saving them from being executed for the crime of one apostate.

Also, the templars' favorite excuse, all mages can do blood magic, simply doesn't hold up. Meredith herself becomes the foremost example of that.

[Elywyn]

Think Anders and what he sad:

"A world with no Circle. No templars. A world where every mage can learn to use their gifts and still return home at night. Where no mother ever need hide her child… or lose him to the fear of his neighbors. Where magic is recognized as a gift of the Maker, not the curse it has become.

It's almost too much to imagine. The Circle, the templars, they've shaped my life. I was no more than twelve when they came for me. My mother wept when they fixed the chains to my wrists, but my father was glad to see me gone. He had been afraid, ever since the fire in the barn. Not just afraid of what I could do, but afraid of me, afraid my magic was punishment for whatever petty sins he imagined the Maker sat in judgment upon."

Think that you are a mage, a mage child who "gifted" from maker. But Templars came and took you away. They say You must break up with your family. If you watched Legend of the Seeker you would know about the "Mord'Sith"s. What difference are there except torture? They had been taken apart too. Imagine that you are in the circle. Every templar just standing right beside you with their "creepy" helmets . You're just a "CHİLD"!. You need your mother not some kind of prison keeper. So why somebody choose to be a blood mage and risk him/herself. Because he/she didn't live like a human or elf. There was nobody to teach you right and wrong except "Don't be a blood mage! That knowledge is forbidden!" That can't keep you away forbidden magic. But a mother, "love" can keep you away forbidden magic. So every mage need their freedom. But knowledge too. 

I don't want to explain this in long-winded way. But I believe Circle of Magi is wrong with templars. I agree mages need to learn control and use their gifts. But not with this way. I believe in School of Magi not Cİrcle of Magi. a School that every mage child could go with their mother and come home at night -just like Anders said-. For example I want to School of Magi of Ferelden in Denerim not in some deserted land. So nobody would fear mages. They can accept their gifts. In this way nobody would want to be a blood mage -except Evil borns of course -. Shortly, I want a school that you must go until you "graduate". I never want to a system like in the Tevinter Imperium. The blame of all of these Circles and First sin is Tevinter magisters. So, There must be a school but nothing more, nothing less.

P.S.: Yes, I belive the First Sin.

Modifié par Elywyn, 02 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[Icinix]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The best arguement for siding with the Templars is to choose the Mages.

Funny, this is the exact reason why I sided with the Templars on my second playthrough after siding with the Mages on my first playthrough.

Me too - only I just loaded the game before making that choice and took the Templars. That is now my only save game left.

However - I took a 'good' templar path. Helping as many mages as I could, and discovering most Templars felt along the same sort of lines.

Its been said before, will be said a million more times, neither side is right...but personally...a 'good' templar side choice appears to offer the best ending. (Strong personal opinion naturally)

[Wydi]

Ollys wrote...

Yes Darwins Law applies for everyone, thats why mage/human conflict is inevitable.
Our ancestors have exterminated ******-Neanderthals just because If two competing spicies meet face to face one of them prevale.if one of us can cast fire from hands he will and if other can oppress him with brute force he will do that.  And one of them will prevale.
The tyrant-king can inherit the kind governor but nobody will change life of those who not a full part of society without reason.  For example englishmens have received a Great Charter after successfully risen of barons and russian peasants remained not free to almost twentieth century because they government was too strong and any revolt has been doomed.
Magocracy should have extraordinary stability because the strong ruler who can burn you with fireball is stronger
than simply strong ruler without additional forces. And people in such society should remain slaves because there is no reason to give freedom & rights to those who can't take it from you by brute force - The strong always rule over the weak after all.
But if humans want be strong they should to oppress potential threat, smash them before they have risen. So oppress or be oppressed.

So your point is that a strong leader is a bad leader, because he needn't fear a riot?
Look at weak leaders across history. They are either totally forgotten or they did terrible things just for keeping their uncertain position. 
The dwarfen story in DAO is a good example. Harrowmont, the weak leader vs. Bhelen, the strong one.
After I initially sided with Harrowmont in my first playthrough, I ultimately always chose Bhelen, even though I totally disagree with his methods. But he could change something and he could achieve what he was up to.
Now look at Obama. He initially had great motives and great goals (imo), but he is a weak leader. We all know where this lead to.
And that's just the modern society. The medieval one, however, is unforgiving and harsh, and requires a strong rule. Orlais would conquer Tevinter in the very moment in which Tevinter had no strong leader.
Even the worst of all leaders has no reason to wipe out and subjugate his people, since they are the (willing or unwilling) foundation of his power.
I acknowledge that it is difficult to maintain the balance between good and evil when you are in a strong position, but there is no alternative in a medieval society, exactly because of Darwin's Law. The true danger in Thedas comes from the outside, and only a strong leader can protect his people.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The best arguement for siding with the Templars is to choose the Mages.

Mind to explain?
Spoiler ahead!

Is it because of the ending saying "Circles across the world rose up in rebellion, setting the world on fire."?
Because that's the only negative aspect that I've found.

End of spoiler

dragonfire100 wrote...

Why would you want to kill anders? hes your best healer.

I must confess that I was tempted to kill him, too, because in my opinion, nothing justifies the "terroristic" act that he had done. I would have loved to have the option to lock him away. DA2 totally lacked options "in between"..

[Huntress]

Tavinter leader is a Mage and is a divine." dark divine"
If you think Orlais would be able to conquer them so easy then why haven't they done it already? Simple they'll need alot of templar's and Tevinter mages uses demons as alies, I dought Orlais would be able to take them, what would happen if the "White divine" ask the circle mages to fight them?
they surely join tevinter and that will be the end of the white divine rules.

Modifié par Huntress, 02 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Wydi wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The best arguement for siding with the Templars is to choose the Mages.

Mind to explain?
Spoiler ahead!

Is it because of the ending saying "Circles across the world rose up in rebellion, setting the world on fire."?
Because that's the only negative aspect that I've found.

End of spoiler

Not that at all. Its because even though you pick their side, they all resort to Blood magic and attack you anyways. Ironically enough, you save more mages siding with the Templars.

Picking the Mages had me constantly sighing and wondering why I even bothered.

[Jcarlo123]

I agree the ending isn't well written at all, but I always side with the mages. The Templars just seem like awful religious fundamentalists to me, so I can't bring myself to side with them.

Same reason why I couldn't side with the Order in the original Witcher. 

Modifié par Jcarlo123, 02 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[snackrat]

I support the mages, but I don't support Janders. He's an anarchist really - he doesn't want to FIX the system, he wants to completely remove it, at the expense of those who cannot protect themselves from the consequences.

So I also agree that SOME element of templar is necessary, even though not to the degree it currently stands. (Maybe a reporting system, or mages can still live with/be visited by family, but must report regularly and if the miss a report and search goes out or something). So I support the templars too, but DEVINATELY do not support Meredith. Even in cases where Hawke was played as very pro-templar, the idea of Meredith gaining power over the viscount does not sound right no matter which side you like.

[Beerfish]

We have had this arguement multiple times.  We all know that all mages are innocent and should have self determination and rose petals tossed at their feet.  We know for a fact that anything good coming from mage is due to the wonderous great beings that mages are and that anything horrible coming from mages are the fault of the templars and the chantry.  All of this is now canon. 

Modifié par Beerfish, 02 août 2011 - 11:41 .

[Nerdage]

No, it's not the templars' fault, it's Kirkwall's. Otherwise; sounds good. That's a lot of rose petals, though.

[erynnar]

Sorry, I am not into a world like Minority Report where people get jailed for what they might do.

And then DA2 came along and I did this, like Jack did...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Wydi wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The best arguement for siding with the Templars is to choose the Mages.

Mind to explain?
Spoiler ahead!

Is it because of the ending saying "Circles across the world rose up in rebellion, setting the world on fire."?
Because that's the only negative aspect that I've found.

End of spoiler

Not
that at all. Its because even though you pick their side, they all
resort to Blood magic and attack you anyways. Ironically enough, you
save more mages siding with the Templars.

Picking the Mages had me constantly sighing and wondering why I even bothered.

Modifié par erynnar, 03 août 2011 - 12:21 .

[Applepie_Svk]

 yea lol rage appears
:innocent:
So in my opinion i think the best solution is drag your brethren out of that mess also your friend and go out from Kirkwall or just help to keep peace in town, Gallows leave to burn.

The mages they are always talking about oppresion but when they need they are always turn to blood magic or just summon some kind of deamon, why not ? yea

The templars few of them have a high ranks and also big mess in head enought to command others to kill every unguilty mage in rage. yea also good

Pl0x dont deffend the Anders, his terrorist attack just make a worst for whole live in Kirkwall. What is worst the blood of innocents is on your hand also even if you help him or just you know the Anders´has something on mind.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 03 août 2011 - 12:47 .

[NugWrangler]

I decided that the safety of the thousands of citizens of Kirkwall needed to take priority. Letting a bunch of terrified mages loose in the city as fugitives seemed way too dangerous. The city also did not deserve to be marched on by the Divine for the sake of a small minority. The problem needed to be contained.

Really though the most logical choice would have been for Hawke to stay out of the issue entirely and go vacation in Antiva until it all blew over. This was never Hawke's problem, especially if you don't have a sibling involved.