404 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Except of course I used my statement to specifically exclude mages.

But by all means ignore the obvious.

[Rifneno]

Point proven.

[Captain_Obvious]

In my opinion, this is a very simple question.  Do the ends (protection from abominations) justify the means (persecution of mages by the Templars)?  You can really ask this question in any way you like to encourage whatever answer you want.

M. Is it acceptable in society to persecute the innocent simply to cast a net wide enough that the guilty might also be contained?  (Mages perspective)

T.  Is is acceptable to ensure the safety of society by containing those who are most able to cause great harm, even should they not desire to do so? (Templar perspective)

M.  Is is acceptable to remove a person's emotions and identity for exercising curiosity or personal attachments to others?  (Mages perspective)

T.  How can we not respond when confronted with a desire that endangers not only the mage but all that surrounds them as well?  (Templar perspective)

It's really a no-right-answer question.  Either the ends justify the means (side with the Templars) or they do not (side with the mages).  Everyone has their own threshold regarding the sacrifices they would be willing to make.  I doubt mine are exactly the same as anyone else's. 

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

Point proven.

Yes by saying I'm exluding mages (who I fully am aware are civilians) from my civilians tally. That's totally proving your point that I don't know what the word means. 

But by all means I'll make it more clear. "Save more non-mage lives." Might as well include the templar lives saved in that case. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 09:04 .

[GavrielKay]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you could not change my mind.

because I always side with the mages. Templars can go to hell. They're necessary yes, but they don't need to be dictators to do their job.

Yes, they do. When you're dealing with untrusthworthy, unstable beings, a stable order is necessary.

Untrustworthy and unstable describes pretty much everyone.  It certainly describes many of the Templars we met in DA2, including their Knight Commander.

The potential for harm should never be enough to strip someone of their basic rights as a person.

That the devs wanted to make a grey area out of keeping people prisoner based on an accident of their birth is just lousy.

Give me an archdemon to defeat any day, that at least felt like a victory.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki, I'm curious by what tally you figure more civilian lives are saved by helping the Templars once Meredith forces the choice on you.

The escaped mages are already escaped, the RoA doesn't matter to them. The ones that Hawke might free from the RoA by opposing it will almost certainly flee the area completely, not stick around to torment the cityfolk. There are likely to be less abominations etc if the mages feel someone is on their side and they might make an escape.

What difference does "faster" make if they're on an island? The cityfolk aren't in the Gallows. How long fighting goes on there doesn't matter to the townsfolk at all.

I'm also not sure how innocent townsfolk deserve more protection than innocent mages. There are hundreds of mages in the Gallows. We know Meredith is nuts, so there's no reason to take her word for it that those mages are beyond salvage.

If you could save hundreds of mages vs. a handful of townsfolk, then would you still opt to save the townsfolk?

[dragonflight288]

Well, any conflict in thedas pales in comparison to the blight. I suppose that's why the series started out with a Grey Warden from any number of Origins. We get to see the prejudice and horrid nature of all the cultures in Thedas before joining, even in Ferelden where things are actually a lot better for people from a social class viewpoint (Orlais: Chevalier's are allowed to rape women any woman at their leisure, Tevinter: Slavery and mages having way too much power. The Qun: Having no freedom of choice. Orzammar: suicidal traditions and the casteless. Dalish: Arrogance and a growing threat of inbreeding. City Elves: No rights among humans and can barely be considered anything greater than a servant to some noble)

The Darkspawn and the Blights don't care about petty infighting among various factions of the world. They'll just kill them all. It's a clear cut evil to find and kill.

When you get into the politics of mages and templars, chantry having too much power or not, racial prejudices, then you find a plethora of reasons to support any group.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki, I'm curious by what tally you figure more civilian lives are saved by helping the Templars once Meredith forces the choice on you.

The escaped mages are already escaped, the RoA doesn't matter to them. The ones that Hawke might free from the RoA by opposing it will almost certainly flee the area completely, not stick around to torment the cityfolk. There are likely to be less abominations etc if the mages feel someone is on their side and they might make an escape.

What difference does "faster" make if they're on an island? The cityfolk aren't in the Gallows. How long fighting goes on there doesn't matter to the townsfolk at all.

I'm also not sure how innocent townsfolk deserve more protection than innocent mages. There are hundreds of mages in the Gallows. We know Meredith is nuts, so there's no reason to take her word for it that those mages are beyond salvage.

If you could save hundreds of mages vs. a handful of townsfolk, then would you still opt to save the townsfolk?

 

The demons are ravaging the streets. (Thus why the guard needs to protect civilians) No mages = no demons. Siding with Meredith means you chase them around the city till they hold themselves up in the gallows. If they spread into the city the templars have the numbers to cut them down regardless and they'll also have to deal with fighting civilians as well. (Hawke & Co) as well as drawing attention to themselves if they're alone or in a group. Either way they have a giant target on their back. 

The mages haven't escaped actually. No one has escaped at the time of the decision. There are mages in the gallows and mages on the streets (they so far aren't running away...they don't start fleeing until the RoA is called). Less abominations...maybe. But also maybe not. 

Except of course the mages aren't only in the gallows. There's several groups in lowtown and a handful (most of whom were taken out by the time you get there) at the docks. 

I do. But of course that's a YMMV

Yes I would save the townsfolk. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 09:28 .

[Nashiktal]

Why not just make Tranquil templars? You would have purely logical guards to watch over the mages.

[MAIDENHEAD 666]

The game doesn't give me any good reason to side with the Templars. Most of them act like Dictators. Even at the beginning Wesley is spouting off about Bethany being an Apostate even though she just helped save his life.
Playing as a Mage it doesn't make sense.
Playing as a Warrior or Rogue condemns Bethany. She is Hawkes' sister. Hawke would have to be very cold hearted to side with the Templars.

[Icinix]

I read the post.

My mind has not been changed.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes I would save the townsfolk. 

And this is probably the crux of our disagreement.  

I think the innocent mages are actually more deserving of protection, in return for having been rounded up and put into the tender care of Meredith the insane.

[Ryzaki]

MAIDENHEAD 666 wrote...

The game doesn't give me any good reason to side with the Templars. Most of them act like Dictators. Even at the beginning Wesley is spouting off about Bethany being an Apostate even though she just helped save his life.
Playing as a Mage it doesn't make sense.
Playing as a Warrior or Rogue condemns Bethany. She is Hawkes' sister. Hawke would have to be very cold hearted to side with the Templars.

Bethany can be dead or a Warden. 

And playing as a mage does make sense. You just have to bend some logic to accomdate it (just like with Bethany). 

@Kay: Yeah I will tend to see the civilians as more deserving as protection. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 09:39 .

[DarkDragon777]

The benefits of keeping the mages in check outweigh the faults.

[TEWR]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you could not change my mind.



because I always side with the mages. Templars can go to hell. They're necessary yes, but they don't need to be dictators to do their job.

Yes, they do. When you're dealing with untrusthworthy, unstable beings, a stable order is necessary.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. --- Benjamin Franklin


Templars are needed to make sure Abominations don't threaten the countryside, not treat mages like they're less than a pile of nug ****. It's startling how the Chantry fails to mention that the method of becoming a Reaver is blood magic (ritualized consumption of blood), which means that it doesn't take a mage to threaten anyone. A warrior can do that just as easily.

What's even more startling is that Reavers go insane and insanity often leads to cases where murder happens.

Templars are also not supposed to hold political power, yet Meredith held it for 3 years. This violates what Templars stand for.

If you treat a man like he isn't human, it will have negative effects down the line. But if you treat him like he is human, he'll respond better. There will always be bad apples in a society. That can never be stopped. All you can hope to do is make sure you're not increasing the number of bad apples.

[GavrielKay]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

The benefits of keeping the mages in check outweigh the faults.

Given everything in DA2 happens with the circle system intact, I think it's pretty well time to try something new.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I'm not too fond of how the circles are run...run not won. Why the hell did I type won? O_o. Now where near enough checks and balances and way too much leeway for the templars. Mages should be kept tabs on though and should be tested regularly (especially after a death of a loved one) to make sure they're not going off the deep end. Other than that there's really no need for circles to be prisons. They should be forced boarding schools (that are taken out the parents pocket and if the parent can't afford it the kid should have a few years of mandatory army service) and let out once they show that they're not liable to run crying to a demon at the first sign of trouble. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 10:02 .

[nitefyre410]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you could not change my mind.



because I always side with the mages. Templars can go to hell. They're necessary yes, but they don't need to be dictators to do their job.

Yes, they do. When you're dealing with untrusthworthy, unstable beings, a stable order is necessary.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. --- Benjamin Franklin


Templars are needed to make sure Abominations don't threaten the countryside, not treat mages like they're less than a pile of nug ****. It's startling how the Chantry fails to mention that the method of becoming a Reaver is blood magic (ritualized consumption of blood), which means that it doesn't take a mage to threaten anyone. A warrior can do that just as easily.

What's even more startling is that Reavers go insane and insanity often leads to cases where murder happens.

Templars are also not supposed to hold political power, yet Meredith held it for 3 years. This violates what Templars stand for.

If you treat a man like he isn't human, it will have negative effects down the line. But if you treat him like he is human, he'll respond better. There will always be bad apples in a society. That can never be stopped. All you can hope to do is make sure you're not increasing the number of bad apples.

 
*clap*   

[TEWR]

nitefyre410 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you could not change my mind.



because I always side with the mages. Templars can go to hell. They're necessary yes, but they don't need to be dictators to do their job.

Yes, they do. When you're dealing with untrusthworthy, unstable beings, a stable order is necessary.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. --- Benjamin Franklin


Templars are needed to make sure Abominations don't threaten the countryside, not treat mages like they're less than a pile of nug ****. It's startling how the Chantry fails to mention that the method of becoming a Reaver is blood magic (ritualized consumption of blood), which means that it doesn't take a mage to threaten anyone. A warrior can do that just as easily.

What's even more startling is that Reavers go insane and insanity often leads to cases where murder happens.

Templars are also not supposed to hold political power, yet Meredith held it for 3 years. This violates what Templars stand for.

If you treat a man like he isn't human, it will have negative effects down the line. But if you treat him like he is human, he'll respond better. There will always be bad apples in a society. That can never be stopped. All you can hope to do is make sure you're not increasing the number of bad apples.

 
*clap*   

*bows*

[Zanallen]

The system could definitely use a reformation. I doubt think anyone would argue against that. However, mages need to be policed in some fashion.They are basically a super-powered minority who can easily hide within the majority and are subjected to temptation and possession by demons even without provocation.

Edit: It is also silly to condem the entire templar order based on the action of Meredith. This is especially true when you consider the extenuating circumstances, not the least of which being that the entire city of Kirkwall is a pot set to boil due to the thin veil.

Modifié par Zanallen, 04 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

The system could definitely use a reformation. I doubt think anyone would argue against that. However, mages need to be policed in some fashion.They are basically a super-powered minority who can easily hide within the majority and are subjected to temptation and possession by demons even without provocation.

Edit: It is also silly to condem the entire templar order based on the action of Meredith. This is especially true when you consider the extenuating circumstances, not the least of which being that the entire city of Kirkwall is a pot set to boil due to the thin veil.

I condemn the Templar order based on its existence as the sword arm of a violent religion.  As posted earlier, the Chantry looks for zealots, not moral people to be Templars.  The goal is to have a group of well trained fighters who believe it is the will of their god that they oppress the mages and kill them if ordered to.  What's not to condemn?

[TEWR]

I agree that they need to be policed in some form. I often say that the Circles should be boarding schools and not lifelong prisons. And when a mage passes his Harrowing (where they're actually told and taught how to resist a demon) they go out to a city or village with Templars stationed there and check in. Then they can live a free life within limitations (checking in with the Templars every few days or so. If they're Andrastian this could be done every day at the Chantry). Also keep the phylacteries. And Templars should serve the monarchy, not the Chantry.


I've posted my ideas for reforming the system so many times that I really don't want to type it out again or go digging, so I'll just leave it at what I've just now said.

Edit: It is also silly to condem the entire templar order based on the action of Meredith. This is especially true when you consider the extenuating circumstances, not the least of which being that the entire city of Kirkwall is a pot set to boil due to the thin veil.

I condemn Kirkwall's Order of Templars because the bad ones tell all the good ones they're too "soft on the robes" (Karras and I believe Ser Mettin if you're pro-Templar) and the bad ones outweigh the good ones.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 août 2011 - 10:09 .

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

I condemn the Templar order based on its existence as the sword arm of a violent religion.  As posted earlier, the Chantry looks for zealots, not moral people to be Templars.  The goal is to have a group of well trained fighters who believe it is the will of their god that they oppress the mages and kill them if ordered to.  What's not to condemn?

They serve a valid, needed fuction? Recall that the entirety of the church of Andraste was built from rebellion against a despotic mage run empire. Recall that the common belief is that mages caused their god to abandon them and that mages are responsible for the creation of the darkspawn, a violent scourge bent on total destruction of the world. Not to mention that zealots make some of the best soldiers.

[TEWR]

and Anders wonders what information the Chantry may have been hiding. I'm willing to bet they know that the Magisters didn't blacken the city or cause the darkspawn during their raid, but felt it would be nice to pin the blame on them anyway.

[GavrielKay]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I condemn the Templar order based on its existence as the sword arm of a violent religion.  As posted earlier, the Chantry looks for zealots, not moral people to be Templars.  The goal is to have a group of well trained fighters who believe it is the will of their god that they oppress the mages and kill them if ordered to.  What's not to condemn?

They serve a valid, needed fuction? Recall that the entirety of the church of Andraste was built from rebellion against a despotic mage run empire. Recall that the common belief is that mages caused their god to abandon them and that mages are responsible for the creation of the darkspawn, a violent scourge bent on total destruction of the world. Not to mention that zealots make some of the best soldiers.

1)  Even if they are needed, it isn't in their present drug addicted, Chantry controlled state
2)  What the Tevinters did 1000 years ago is a bit much to pin on present day mages
3)  The rest of that is Chantry lore with no evidence.  Awfully convenient that Chantry lore supports Chantry behavior, isn't it?
4)  The Templars are more jailors than soldiers, and zealots make bad jailors