404 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

But. . .magisters did create the darkspawn anyway. Doesn't matter when it happened, it still happened, and could easily be blamed with the passing of time.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I agree that they need to be policed in some form. I often say that the Circles should be boarding schools and not lifelong prisons. And when a mage passes his Harrowing (where they're actually told and taught how to resist a demon) they go out to a city or village with Templars stationed there and check in. Then they can live a free life within limitations (checking in with the Templars every few days or so. If they're Andrastian this could be done every day at the Chantry). Also keep the phylacteries. And Templars should serve the monarchy, not the Chantry.

I've posted my ideas for reforming the system so many times that I really don't want to type it out again or go digging, so I'll just leave it at what I've just now said.

Your ideas are fairly similar to my own. I would also go so far as to limit what a normal mage is taught; most likely just basic control techniques and healing. Mages would also be required to serve as reservists in exchange for schooling. They would receive pay and boarding, of course, and would aid in healing the wounded. Only mages who decide to serve the standing army full time would be taught advanced combat techniques.

I condemn Kirkwall's Order of Templars because the bad ones tell all the good ones they're too "soft on the robes" (Karras and I believe Ser Mettin if you're pro-Templar) and the bad ones outweigh the good ones.

But you have to remember that the thin veil can cause even normal people to go mad or become possessed. These are people tasked to serve in what is no doubt one of the worst cities in the world for one with their duties and have to deal with fade spirits attempting to influence them.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

But. . .magisters did create the darkspawn anyway. Doesn't matter when it happened, it still happened, and could easily be blamed with the passing of time.

So?  What magisters may or may not have done 1000 years ago has little to do with a mage born in Kirkwall in the DA2 timeframe.

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

But. . .magisters did create the darkspawn anyway. Doesn't matter when it happened, it still happened, and could easily be blamed with the passing of time.

Magisters created Awakened Darkspawn. That's not the same thing as saying they created Darkspawn, for various reasons:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Avernus' notes mention a connection between the taint and the Black City, but Corypheus implies it was always black, which means it was always tainted.

An Awakened Darkspawn is just that. One that is free from the call of the Old Gods. The Disciples, The Architect, and Corypheus are Awakened Darkspawn.

Also, it doesn't make sense for him to be one of the first Darkspawn, for varying reasons:

1) he can't hear the Old Gods, so he couldn't have sought them out.
2) Dwarves encountered Genlocks long before humanity ever did, possibly before the raid on the supposed Golden City if it ever was Golden.
3) Females of each race become broodmothers through a painful process in terms of both body and spirit that involves more than just being tainted, as Hespith's poem indicates.

And I doubt that Corypheus, or any other awakened Darkspawn, could've known how to make Broodmothers. I'm willing to bet the only way mindless Darkspawn know is due to instinct.

What's also interesting is that in the battle with Meredith, during a certain cutscene you can hear the same whispering you hear in the Joining ritual at Ostagar and when you become a Reaver. Which indicates to me that the lyrium idol is connected to the Darkspawn, and as we know the Old Gods for some reason have something to do with other dragons (since you fight one in the battle of Denerim before fighting the Archdemon

[grregg]

GavrielKay wrote...

(...)

So?  What magisters may or may not have done 1000 years ago has little to do with a mage born in Kirkwall in the DA2 timeframe.

True, but mages are still dangerous, aren't they? Not too mention that BioWare writers apparently are paid by the number of zeroes they attach to dates and periods, so 1000 years in Thedas is probably more like 50 years in RL. In other words, history moves VEEERY slowly in BioWare worlds.

By the way, I agree with you that templars (especially as shown in DA2) are not the most humane policing force, but is there anyone else offering (and qualified) to take the job?

Of course, disbanding the templars and letting mages run free is an interesting experiment, but people (not only in Thedas) are reluctant to run interesting experiments when their own lives are at stake. Understandably so in my opinion.

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I condemn the Templar order based on its existence as the sword arm of a violent religion.  As posted earlier, the Chantry looks for zealots, not moral people to be Templars.  The goal is to have a group of well trained fighters who believe it is the will of their god that they oppress the mages and kill them if ordered to.  What's not to condemn?

They serve a valid, needed fuction? Recall that the entirety of the church of Andraste was built from rebellion against a despotic mage run empire. Recall that the common belief is that mages caused their god to abandon them and that mages are responsible for the creation of the darkspawn, a violent scourge bent on total destruction of the world. Not to mention that zealots make some of the best soldiers.

1)  Even if they are needed, it isn't in their present drug addicted, Chantry controlled state
2)  What the Tevinters did 1000 years ago is a bit much to pin on present day mages
3)  The rest of that is Chantry lore with no evidence.  Awfully convenient that Chantry lore supports Chantry behavior, isn't it?
4)  The Templars are more jailors than soldiers, and zealots make bad jailors

1) Matter of opinion, but whatever.  (not saying I agree with the Chantry's control, but not the topic at hand) We truly do not know exactly what lyrium does for Templars, as we have no real experiance with any long time templars as NPCs.  We only have Alistair's words, who is biased against a life he didn't want, and the end result of lyrium addiction, but due to lack of science, or documentation, we don't really know if there is another point to it outside of control.  Supposedly it makes them more powerful?  It really hasn't been gone into.
2) That would be true if the Tevinters weren't rolling around as moustache twirling villians during the times of Dragon Age.  Look how much Islam is villified today and apply that to a minority that have a in universe Sith empire propped up by that said minority (mages), and think that people would not be biased against them.
3) Yes, Chantry propaganda would support their behavior.  News at 11 folks.  The problem is the fact that evey known country in Thedas outside of the Riviani are happy Andrastians.  (And even Rivain has a Chantry outpost.  People are indoctinated, and that wouldn't change for centuries, especially with nothing to supplant chantry doctrine outside of the Qun)
4) Zealots make bad jailors for the jailees, but not so much for keeping up the status quo (the jailers).  Which tends to happen, more often than not.

Modifié par Harid, 04 août 2011 - 10:37 .

[Zanallen]

GavrielKay wrote...

1)  Even if they are needed, it isn't in their present drug addicted, Chantry controlled state
2)  What the Tevinters did 1000 years ago is a bit much to pin on present day mages
3)  The rest of that is Chantry lore with no evidence.  Awfully convenient that Chantry lore supports Chantry behavior, isn't it?
4)  The Templars are more jailors than soldiers, and zealots make bad jailors

1) Reforms are needed. No one is arguing against that.
2) Not really. The Tevinter magisters are still there. Still a symbol of what mages could do. Still enslaving people. The darkspawn are still there as well. The people still have near constant reminders of what happened a thousand years ago. No time to forget or forgive, really.
3) And there is also no real evidence of the contrary. Convenient that. No one knows what really happened so no one can dispute it.
4) Zealots make fine jailors. There just needs to be more checks to ensure things don't get out of hand. And besides, tracking down and putting a stop to rogue mages is just as if not more important then keeping obedient mages locked up.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...



Your ideas are fairly similar to my own. I would also go so far as to limit what a normal mage is taught; most likely just basic control techniques and healing. Mages would also be required to serve as reservists in exchange for schooling. They would receive pay and boarding, of course, and would aid in healing the wounded. Only mages who decide to serve the standing army full time would be taught advanced combat techniques.

That severely limits how effective mages are in Blights and against other threats. If they don't know how to use the more powerful spells, then they aren't very useful. Especially since Wynne was able to set a boy's hair on fire without meaning to.

But you have to remember that the thin veil can cause even normal people to go mad or become possessed. These are people tasked to serve in what is no doubt one of the worst cities in the world for one with their duties and have to deal with fade spirits attempting to influence them.

The only evidence of a normal person being affected by the thin Veil is Lady Harimann and her family, and they dug so far underground that they found a trapped demon. There's no real evidence that it affected anyone else.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

But. . .magisters did create the darkspawn anyway. Doesn't matter when it happened, it still happened, and could easily be blamed with the passing of time.

Magisters created Awakened Darkspawn. That's not the same thing as saying they created Darkspawn, for various reasons:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Avernus' notes mention a connection between the taint and the Black City, but Corypheus implies it was always black, which means it was always tainted.

An Awakened Darkspawn is just that. One that is free from the call of the Old Gods. The Disciples, The Architect, and Corypheus are Awakened Darkspawn.

Also, it doesn't make sense for him to be one of the first Darkspawn, for varying reasons:

1) he can't hear the Old Gods, so he couldn't have sought them out.
2) Dwarves encountered Genlocks long before humanity ever did, possibly before the raid on the supposed Golden City if it ever was Golden.
3) Females of each race become broodmothers through a painful process in terms of both body and spirit that involves more than just being tainted, as Hespith's poem indicates.

And I doubt that Corypheus, or any other awakened Darkspawn, could've known how to make Broodmothers. I'm willing to bet the only way mindless Darkspawn know is due to instinct.

What's also interesting is that in the battle with Meredith, during a certain cutscene you can hear the same whispering you hear in the Joining ritual at Ostagar and when you become a Reaver. Which indicates to me that the lyrium idol is connected to the Darkspawn, and as we know the Old Gods for some reason have something to do with other dragons (since you fight one in the battle of Denerim before fighting the Archdemon

Let me get this straight.  Magisters, twisted by lyrium and power, end up look exactly as we know it, as Darkspawn end up, and you are going to tell me, with a straight face, that it's just a simple coincidence?

1) is false.  We know Dumat told him to enter the Golden city in the first place.  Doesn't the dude call to Dumat when he's casting his spells?
2) We don't know if these two times do not match up yet.  Jumping to conclusions.  Even if it is, that's just Genlocks.  We don't know how the other darkspawn were created.
3) That's how darkspawn are propogated now.  that doesn't tell us how they were created in the first place.

But I don't know how you can say that awakened darkspawn don't know how to make Broodmothers, when an awakened Darkspawn (The Architect) made a Broodmother (The Mother).  It seems to me that it is a skill known by blood/dna, much like how most mammals know how to walk or swim innately.

Modifié par Harid, 04 août 2011 - 10:50 .

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That severely limits how effective mages are in Blights and against other threats. If they don't know how to use the more powerful spells, then they aren't very useful. Especially since Wynne was able to set a boy's hair on fire without meaning to.

If the standing army had a trained mage force and didn't have to borrow mages from the circles, they wouldn't need your everyday mage to be trained to hurl fireballs or call down lightning storms. And learning control would hopefully prevent mages from accidently setting people's hair on fire. Granted, there is nothing stopping a mage from learning to hurl fireballs on their own, but there is also nothing to stop a mage from learning blood magic and controlling to minds of other people. That is why you keep the phylacteries, enforce regular check-ins with templars and offer a paid program where-in mages would be able to legally use their abilities if they so chose.

The only evidence of a normal person being affected by the thin Veil is Lady Harimann and her family, and they dug so far underground that they found a trapped demon. There's no real evidence that it affected anyone else.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Enigma_of_Kirkwall

The veil is thin enough that below the city even normal people can be contacted by demons. It also causes more mages to fail the Harrowing and more mages to turn to blood magic. Seems like it would cause a fairly hostile work environment for someone tasked with guarding mages, even without the possiblity of demonic corruption.

[BigEvil]

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

But. . .magisters did create the darkspawn anyway. Doesn't matter when it happened, it still happened, and could easily be blamed with the passing of time.

Magisters created Awakened Darkspawn. That's not the same thing as saying they created Darkspawn, for various reasons:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Avernus' notes mention a connection between the taint and the Black City, but Corypheus implies it was always black, which means it was always tainted.

An Awakened Darkspawn is just that. One that is free from the call of the Old Gods. The Disciples, The Architect, and Corypheus are Awakened Darkspawn.

Also, it doesn't make sense for him to be one of the first Darkspawn, for varying reasons:

1) he can't hear the Old Gods, so he couldn't have sought them out.
2) Dwarves encountered Genlocks long before humanity ever did, possibly before the raid on the supposed Golden City if it ever was Golden.
3) Females of each race become broodmothers through a painful process in terms of both body and spirit that involves more than just being tainted, as Hespith's poem indicates.

And I doubt that Corypheus, or any other awakened Darkspawn, could've known how to make Broodmothers. I'm willing to bet the only way mindless Darkspawn know is due to instinct.

What's also interesting is that in the battle with Meredith, during a certain cutscene you can hear the same whispering you hear in the Joining ritual at Ostagar and when you become a Reaver. Which indicates to me that the lyrium idol is connected to the Darkspawn, and as we know the Old Gods for some reason have something to do with other dragons (since you fight one in the battle of Denerim before fighting the Archdemon

Let me get this straight.  Magisters, twisted by lyrium and power, end up look exactly as we know it, as Darkspawn end up, and you are going to tell me, with a straight face, that it's just a simple coincidence?

1) is false.  We know Dumat told him to enter the Golden city in the first place.  Doesn't the dude call to Dumat when he's casting his spells?
2) We don't know if these two times do not match up yet.  Jumping to conclusions.  Even if it is, that's just Genlocks.  We don't know how the other darkspawn were created.
3) That's how darkspawn are propogated now.  that doesn't tell us how they were created in the first place.

But I don't know how you can say that awakened darkspawn don't know how to make Broodmothers, when an awakened Darkspawn (The Architect) made a Broodmother (The Mother).  It seems to me that it is a skill known by blood/dna, much like how most mammals know how to walk or swim innately.

1. I think Ethereal Writer is referring to the call of the Old Gods/Archdemons which Darkspawn and Grey Wardens hear, not other sorts of communication. Also, Dumat is his god, calling out his name when casting magic isn't proof that they are in communication. It's like praying to your god to give you strength, we've got no way of knowing there was any effect or power increase from him saying that.
2. We don't know how any of the Darkspawn were originally created for sure, so disregarding that as "just Genlocks" is rather pointless, unless you're trying to claim Genlocks are not Darkspawn.

The Architect did not make a Broodmother, he awakened one. There's nothing in Awakening that states he turned a woman into a Broodmother, only that he awakened the Mother.

[Harid]

BigEvil wrote...

1. I think Ethereal Writer is referring to the call of the Old Gods/Archdemons which Darkspawn and Grey Wardens hear, not other sorts of communication. Also, Dumat is his god, calling out his name when casting magic isn't proof that they are in communication. It's like praying to your god to give you strength, we've got no way of knowing there was any effect or power increase from him saying that.  Furthermore, I guess I have to assume that the Architect stumbled upon Urthemial too, huh.
2. We don't know how any of the Darkspawn were originally created for sure, so disregarding that as "just Genlocks" is rather pointless, unless you're trying to claim Genlocks are not Darkspawn.

The Architect did not make a Broodmother, he awakened one. There's nothing in Awakening that states he turned a woman into a Broodmother, only that he awakened the Mother.

1) Communication is communication is communication.  We already know they communicated.  Cordecyps states they communicated.  He has an altar to Dumat in his dungeon.  I just. . .can't come to this conclusion without ignoring a lot.  Not hearing the calling is inconsequental to the fact that he can communicate with Old Gods, based on his own words.
2) No, I am stating that just because magisters *possibly* didn't create the genlocks doesn't mean they didn't create the other darkspawn, given how Cordecyps looks like, for all intents and purposes, a darkspawn.  If I wanted to jump to conclusions they could have created the other Darkspawn based on the Genlock template, that's as farfetched as the conclusions you are jumping to.

Fair enough about the Architect, my mistake.  I still have trouble believing that Awakened Darkspawn do not know how to create Darkspawn, but no proof, so fair enough.

Modifié par Harid, 04 août 2011 - 11:16 .

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

Let me get this straight.  Magisters, twisted by lyrium and power, end up look exactly as we know it, as Darkspawn end up, and you are going to tell me, with a straight face, that it's just a simple coincidence?

Coincidence and Dragon Age go hand in hand

1) is false.  We know Dumat told him to enter the Golden city in the first place.  Doesn't the dude call to Dumat when he's casting his spells?

No you're wrong. I was talking about the Calling that Darkspawn and Wardens hear. After becoming a Darkspawn, he couldn't hear Dumat. And just because he calls out his name while doing what Mages do doesn't mean Dumat was actually answering him, especially when people cried out to the Old Gods during a Blight and weren't answered.

Also, the altar of Dumat is probably there from when the Wardens of old were there. I doubt Corypheus himself used it. Let me see if I can find the various codexes regarding Dumat items. I don't think they say too much, but I'll check.

2) We don't know if these two times do not match up yet.  Jumping to conclusions.  Even if it is, that's just Genlocks.  We don't know how the other darkspawn were created.

So Genlocks aren't Darkspawn now? If they were the first Darkspawn, then they would've made raids to the surface after amassing a Genlock army (they are the most numerous Darkspawn after all because of the Dwarves' proximity to them) and taken humans and elves and made other Darkspawn, and then sought out the Old Gods.

3) That's how darkspawn are propogated now.  that doesn't tell us how they were created in the first place.

But I don't know how you can say that awakened darkspawn don't know how to make Broodmothers, when an awakened Darkspawn (The Architect) made a Broodmother (The Mother).  It seems to me that it is a skill known by blood/dna, much like how most mammals know how to walk or swim innately.

You're trying to argue that the Broodmother method would be different? On what grounds?


Also, the Mother is an Awakened Broodmother. The Architect didn't make her a broodmother. He just awakened her. Nothing in game says that he kidnapped a human woman and made her a broodmother, and then awakened her.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 août 2011 - 11:13 .

[BigEvil]

Harid wrote...
1) Communication is communication is communication.  We already know they communicated.  Cordecyps states they communicated.  He has an altar to Dumat in his dungeon.  I just. . .can't come to this conclusion without ignoring a lot.  Not hearing the calling is inconsequental to the fact that he can communicate with Old Gods, based on his own words.
2) No, I am stating that just because magisters *possibly* didn't create the genlocks doesn't mean they didn't create the other darkspawn, given how Cordecyps looks like, for all intents and purposes, a darkspawn.  If I wanted to jump to conclusions they could have created the other Darkspawn based on the Genlock template, that's as farfetched as the conclusions you are jumping to.

Fair enough about the Architect, my mistake.  I still have trouble believing that Awakened Darkspawn do not know how to create Darkspawn, but no proof, so fair enough.

1. Ethereal Writer has since clarified this and I agree with what he said. The point is, Corypheus confirms that Dumat was in communication with the magisters and convinced them to go to the Golden/Black City. That does not mean that when Corypheus is released from his slumber in the prison a couple of thousand years later that they are still in communication. There is no proof of that.
2. I'm not jumping to conclusions. I think it's a fairly logical thing to think that IF the magisters did not create the Genlocks then they didn't create other Darkspawn either.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I condemn the Templar order based on its existence as the sword arm of a violent religion.  As posted earlier, the Chantry looks for zealots, not moral people to be Templars.  The goal is to have a group of well trained fighters who believe it is the will of their god that they oppress the mages and kill them if ordered to.  What's not to condemn?

They serve a valid, needed fuction? Recall that the entirety of the church of Andraste was built from rebellion against a despotic mage run empire. Recall that the common belief is that mages caused their god to abandon them and that mages are responsible for the creation of the darkspawn, a violent scourge bent on total destruction of the world. Not to mention that zealots make some of the best soldiers.

Zealots also make truly atrocious police officers, though, and since the Templars' stated goal is to serve and protect, personal integrity would be a more attractive trait, in a well-run system, than blind fanaticism. The fact that Tevinter was a mage-ruled empire, or that the darkspawn exist doesn't mean the templars are justified in treating all mages like criminals for mere existence. Just because they have a valid function doesn't mean they're functioning correctly, or that they deserve to have unchecked power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Zealots also make for the best policemen, if you know how to use them. And since the goal is suppression, zealots are the very best tool for that. Just saying.

[Zanallen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Zealots also make truly atrocious police officers, though, and since the Templars' stated goal is to serve and protect, personal integrity would be a more attractive trait, in a well-run system, than blind fanaticism. The fact that Tevinter was a mage-ruled empire, or that the darkspawn exist doesn't mean the templars are justified in treating all mages like criminals for mere existence. Just because they have a valid function doesn't mean they're functioning correctly, or that they deserve to have unchecked power.

And once again, the system could use reformation. The entirety of the order should not be vilified because you think mages deserve better treatment. The fact remains that mages are a feared and dangerous minority in most Andrastian countries. They have power that far exceeds the average person and pose a real threat to those around them. They need to be policed for their own safety as well as the safety of the populace as a whole. And Tevinter still is a mage ruled empire and serves as a constant reminder of the dangers that mages possess.

[Ryzaki]

What should be researched is a way to destroy magic without tranquility. Don't know why no one is working on that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Zealots also make for the best policemen, if you know how to use them. And since the goal is suppression, zealots are the very best tool for that. Just saying.

Actually zealots can and do go overboard and it's hard to control them and keep them under the law.
Zealots are great when you need brute force, but eventually, you are going to lose control. I do not think they would make good enforcers if what you have in mind is rule of law and institution building. 

Since the Chantry cannot fully supervise them (especially seeing how impotent it is), they'd need to rely on templars like Greagoir. Strict and dedicated, but not fanatical (at least when compared to others) and could keep their men in line. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 août 2011 - 11:44 .

[Zanallen]

Ryzaki wrote...

What should be researched is a way to destroy magic without tranquility. Don't know why no one is working on that.

Most likely because, as much as people dislike mages, they need them to fight off darkspawn and qunari. I'm surprised that no one is thinking up a way to completely enslave all mages like the collars in the Wheel of Time novels.

Modifié par Zanallen, 04 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[Ryzaki]

Zanallen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What should be researched is a way to destroy magic without tranquility. Don't know why no one is working on that.

Most likely because, as much as people dislike mages, they need them to fight off darkspawn and qunari.

But only a handful of mages were necessary for that. Not to mention darkspawn are fought off just fine without mages. (as the Warden can attest to.) You'd get less casualities but...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[Harid]

BigEvil wrote...

Harid wrote...
1) Communication is communication is communication.  We already know they communicated.  Cordecyps states they communicated.  He has an altar to Dumat in his dungeon.  I just. . .can't come to this conclusion without ignoring a lot.  Not hearing the calling is inconsequental to the fact that he can communicate with Old Gods, based on his own words.
2) No, I am stating that just because magisters *possibly* didn't create the genlocks doesn't mean they didn't create the other darkspawn, given how Cordecyps looks like, for all intents and purposes, a darkspawn.  If I wanted to jump to conclusions they could have created the other Darkspawn based on the Genlock template, that's as farfetched as the conclusions you are jumping to.

Fair enough about the Architect, my mistake.  I still have trouble believing that Awakened Darkspawn do not know how to create Darkspawn, but no proof, so fair enough.

1. Ethereal Writer has since clarified this and I agree with what he said. The point is, Corypheus confirms that Dumat was in communication with the magisters and convinced them to go to the Golden/Black City. That does not mean that when Corypheus is released from his slumber in the prison a couple of thousand years later that they are still in communication. There is no proof of that.
2. I'm not jumping to conclusions. I think it's a fairly logical thing to think that IF the magisters did not create the Genlocks then they didn't create other Darkspawn either.

There has to be some basal level of communication between old gods and awakened darkspawn for the Architect to be able to cause the 5th blight via corruption of Urthemiel.  The other options are too farfetched (leashed Darkspawn?  How do they dig?) and would rely on Awakened Darkspawns orders being stronger than the Calling, and given how light we know the control awakened Darkspawn have over other darkspawn given Awakening, we already know this not to be true.  Corypheus is just awakened from long slumber, so sure, no communication.  It doesn't mean that Magisters didn't know the location of Old Gods in the first place to corrupt Dumat, or whatever Old god they corrupted first.  My point being, it doesn't prove that magisters weren't the first Darkspawn.  You guys even consider Corypheus to be one, and he predates the first Blight, and mages given Avernus can live far longer than normal human lifespan.
And we don't know if the magisters didn't create the Genlocks.

Modifié par Harid, 04 août 2011 - 11:54 .

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What should be researched is a way to destroy magic without tranquility. Don't know why no one is working on that.

Most likely because, as much as people dislike mages, they need them to fight off darkspawn and qunari.

Actually the Chantry frowns on magical research regarding the body because they see it as blood magic. Or because it requires blood magic. Or both.


Basically it's the Chantry's damn fault.

Ryzaki wrote...
But only a handful of mages were necessary for that. Not to mention darkspawn are fought off just fine without mages. (as the Warden can attest to.) You'd get less casualities but...

1) You see dozens of mages marching to help out. So 12 mages weren't all that actually fought.
2) If killing Darkspawn was as easy as you claim, then it would be a breeze. The Dwarves wouldn't have lost their thaigs when they fought an army with an army. Fighting Darkspawn isn't easy. The Warden is protected by both plot armor and the fact that being a Warden helps make killing Darkspawn easier.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Zealots also make truly atrocious police officers, though, and since the Templars' stated goal is to serve and protect, personal integrity would be a more attractive trait, in a well-run system, than blind fanaticism. The fact that Tevinter was a mage-ruled empire, or that the darkspawn exist doesn't mean the templars are justified in treating all mages like criminals for mere existence. Just because they have a valid function doesn't mean they're functioning correctly, or that they deserve to have unchecked power.

And once again, the system could use reformation. The entirety of the order should not be vilified because you think mages deserve better treatment. The fact remains that mages are a feared and dangerous minority in most Andrastian countries. They have power that far exceeds the average person and pose a real threat to those around them. They need to be policed for their own safety as well as the safety of the populace as a whole. And Tevinter still is a mage ruled empire and serves as a constant reminder of the dangers that mages possess.

Empires in general are pretty bad places to live. No one ever considered that living in an autocratic state might be the real problem behind Tevinter because to acknowledge that, in-game, would also need one to acknowledge the ridiculous number of social reforms that Thedas needs, beyond those concerning magic. Look at all the noblemen in the game. Arl Howe has scores of innocent people killed and tortured for little practical gain, the Orlesians who conquered Ferelden regularly raped, tortured, and killed everyone from noblemen to peasants, and not always in that order. Antiva is filled with noblemen killing noblemen and the Crows acting as the middleman. The Free Marches are filled with these people, Nevarra too. Hell, the Qunari don't even have nobles, yet if you disagree with anything outlined in the Qun, you are sentenced to work to death in a mining camp. The misuse of magic certainly isn't helping matters, but the Chantry is barking up the wrong tree if they think magic is the true cause of all of Tevinter's social ills. Magisters are nobles first, mages second. They won't hesitate in shackling mages who aren't one of them.

I also wasn't villifying the notion of templars. As a police force, with an internal affairs division that actually does something, and perhaps an analogous organization within the Circle itself, it would be a very important part of the system.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What should be researched is a way to destroy magic without tranquility. Don't know why no one is working on that.

Most likely because, as much as people dislike mages, they need them to fight off darkspawn and qunari.

But only a handful of mages were necessary for that. Not to mention darkspawn are fought off just fine without mages. (as the Warden can attest to.) You'd get less casualities but...

I think Human Experimentation is illegal.

People already see the Chantry as fanged monsters, experimenting, even on Aeonar imprisoned mages, would probably be seen as worse, even if it was for an ultimately noble® end.