404 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
If we can destroy the chantry I want to be able to wipe out all but a handful of Andrastian mages. And just leave the loyalists alive.  

I don't necessarily want to destroy the chantry, just the templar order.  I would prefer a reformed chantry.

Why not a reformed Templar Order then?  Hell the Templar Order, properly employed, is a useful and necessary thing to have (warriors who specialize in fighting mages).  We need to face the harsh reality that sometimes mages go bad, and you can't always trust people to go after their own.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Andraste was not "very likely the OGB of Dumat". For all the evidence for that theory (none....), there is one glaring inconsistency with it: The Warden who killed Dumat, did not surive.

[TEWR]

We actually don't know who killed Dumat, nor do we know much about the battle itself. Urthemiel was "slain" to the knowledge of Thedas, but that doesn't mean he actually was.


Even if the Warden says "No I won't have sex with you Morrigan", that doesn't mean she simply gave up. Maybe she was wrong about Riordan (though admittedly she sounded certain, but hey it doesn't hurt to try), maybe she found another Grey Warden infiltrator from Orlais and convinced him. Bioware could pull a whole bunch of other reasons for her having an OGB while still keeping the Warden dead due to trauma to the head or other war injuries.

In that scenario, Urthemiel is still "dead" to the world, the Warden is still dead, and Morrigan gets her OGB.

Also, the Altar of Dumat is apparently still working. Now... either there are some ancient enchantments and other magicks worked into it to keep it working or Dumat is still an Old God or he's an OGP (Old God Person). Unless the Old Gods all look remarkably different, I don't see how they could've distinguished them to be who they are. The only one we absolutely know of is Urthemiel because the Architect knew who it was.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 01:58 .

[Ryzaki]

No OGB doesn't exist if Warden didn't do the DR. Word of Gaider. And Thank Ra for that.

[TEWR]

where did Gaider say that?

[Giggles_Manically]

Still does not stop people from trying to claim it will happen though.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

where did Gaider say that?

Here. 

[TEWR]

I'm wondering why he said "nobody would have died" when wartime injuries kill soldiers all the time. The Warden isn't somehow immune to trauma to the head. Also, the extent of the choice was basically "Warden makes heroic death".


Otherwise, meh I can't argue that now. Dammit Ryzaki you had to ruin my fun.

[dragonflight288]

Templar and Mage supporters both agree that reformation is needed. And from what I've read (I've spent the past half hour catching up on this thread alone), we have templar supporters claiming the mages circle needs to be reformed to prevent the risk of abominations affecting the common man and woman. Mage supporters who say the templar order needs to be reformed.

I posted earlier on page five the codex entry from origins on templars. In it, it specifically states that the Chantry chooses people to become templars on two specific criteria. The first is that they are skilled warriors. The second is they believe in the maker with unquestioning resolve. It also specifically states that the morality of the templar in question is a secondary concern.

The reasons given are that this is to prevent templars from questioning orders that would be hard to follow if they had too many scruples.

But this also means that you will have far more templars like Alrik and Kerras than you would like Gregoir and Thrask.

I happen to agree that both need reformations. Mages need to be allowed more liberties, like having a family without permission from the Grand Cleric of their country, having a life among the common people (who would need plenty of time to acclimate to the idea of mages not being dangerous) as healers or soldiers or whatever.

The templars also need to be rid of their lyrium addiction. I don't recall templar made Oghren needing Lyrium. Or Justice in Awakening, or my warrior wardens. Or Hawke. They also need a more selective recruitment process. Instead of simply recruiting relgious fanatics, they need to recruit men and women who would stand up for what the Chant of Light actually teaches, not what some prejudice revered mother or lieutenant says.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Andraste was not "very likely the OGB of Dumat". For all the evidence for that theory (none....), there is one glaring inconsistency with it: The Warden who killed Dumat, did not surive.

The Dumat-slaying is shrouded in mystery. Despite the First Blight being the second most documented event in Thedas history (surpassed only by Andraste's war on Tevinter, naturally) we don't have a name of the warden who slew Dumat. We know the name of Andraste's childhood best friend, Ealisay, but not the name of the man or woman who ended a 200 year blight. There is in fact no more evidence s/he died than that s/he survived because we know nothing about him/her whatsoever.

As for the lack of evidence on the source of Andraste's power, there's also no evidence she got her immense power from the Maker. Hell, there's no evidence that the Maker even existed at all. There's plenty of evidence that the dragon gods did though. So we either assume that she got her superpowers from a source that we don't know for sure even existed, or we assume it's no coincidence that she was born right around one of the very few times in Thedas' incredibly long history that it was possible a human could be the reborn form of the most powerful being we know for a fact to exist. Occam's razor anyone?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Maybe she was wrong about Riordan (though admittedly she sounded certain, but hey it doesn't hurt to try),

This is another reason I'm inclined to believe there's been an OGB before. Morrigan was absolutely positive that it would work. If it had never been done and was only a theory, she'd be a fool to be so certain. And Morrigan was a lot of things, but she was not a fool.

Ryzaki wrote...

No OGB doesn't exist if Warden didn't do the DR. Word of Gaider. And Thank Ra for that.

Ra, huh? Hehe.

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Still does not stop people from trying to claim it will happen though.

To be fair, there are a lot of decisions they undid in DA2. The deaths of Anders, Justice, and Leliana. A whole lot of the epilogues too. They just always had some ridiculous convoluted explanation for it (which in Leliana's case, has yet to be revealed). But we've never had official confirmation on those subjects from the mouth of a dev, let alone the lead writer. I doubt they'll cross that particular line. But I do understand why people would be hesitant to believe it.

[KotorEffect3]

DPSSOC wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
If we can destroy the chantry I want to be able to wipe out all but a handful of Andrastian mages. And just leave the loyalists alive.  

I don't necessarily want to destroy the chantry, just the templar order.  I would prefer a reformed chantry.

Why not a reformed Templar Order then?  Hell the Templar Order, properly employed, is a useful and necessary thing to have (warriors who specialize in fighting mages).  We need to face the harsh reality that sometimes mages go bad, and you can't always trust people to go after their own.

I am not against soldiers trained to fight magic.  But they should be a government entity and not a religious one.  The fact that th order is just another part of the chantry makes it to easy for fanatacism to take over.  Not saying that government soldiers can't go bad but they are less likely to go fanatic than chantry templars.

[TEWR]

Andraste could very well have been a powerful mage, like the gift book for Wynne says. Or a powerful OGB mage. And who do we know that's a powerful mage that knows about OGBs? Flemeth. So she's Andraste, the Dumat OGB. Or Fen'harel. Or both, if that's even remotely possible.


And it wouldn't make much sense for them to not make the OGB exist while keeping the Warden dead. That is really important choice that I can't see them not using.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 03:42 .

[dragonflight288]

Why assume she had superpowers to begin with? That could just be more Chantry propaganda.

In the Orzammar Shaperate, you can find a book as a gift. That book suggests that Andraste had power not from the maker, but because she was a powerful mage.

Either way she had power, only the source is different from what people generally believe

@ Etheral Writer

We seem to come to the same conclusions almost instantly. Nice posting the same thing at the same time. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 05 août 2011 - 03:44 .

[TEWR]

 it's because Dwarves are awesome.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 03:47 .

[Dave of Canada]

Not everybody is an Old God baby.

[dragonflight288]

Uh huh.

So if Andraste were an Arcane Warrior who mastered the school of Spirit, she wouldn't be considered overly powerful due to the connection of the school of Spirit to the Fade and its ability to animate the dead to fight? (commonly mistaken for blood magic, even by mage companions when encountered in DA2)

[CrimsonZephyr]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Not everybody is an Old God baby.

Everybody loves the Old Gods. Everybody!

[Dave of Canada]

 I've come to announce, after reading the original post, my mind remains... UNCHANGED.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Not everybody is an Old God baby.

Actually....

there weren't 7 Old Gods. There were bajillions and bajillions. Then they were getting killed, but their souls became babies.

So Thedas is filled with Old God babies, and each is more special than the last. They're all unique. So everyone's an Old God baby! Let's have a party to celebrate being an Old God Baby like an Old God baby should!

[Harid]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...


There has to be some basal level of communication between old gods and awakened darkspawn for the Architect to be able to cause the 5th blight via corruption of Urthemiel.  The other options are too farfetched and would rely on Awakened Darkspawns orders being stronger than the Calling, and given how light we know the control awakened Darkspawn have over other darkspawn, we already know this not to be true.  Corypheus is just awakened from long slumber, so sure, no communication.  It doesn't mean that Magisters didn't know the location of Old Gods in the first place to corrupt Dumat, or whatever Old god they corrupted first.  My point being, it doesn't prove that magisters weren't the first Darkspawn.  You guys even consider Corypheus to be one.
And we don't know if the magisters didn't create the Genlocks.

No there doesn't. For one thing, the Calling would still have affected the Darkspawn in Amaranthine because there are two Old Gods that need to be found. Second, I remember either a book or a Facebook game that happened prior to the 5th Blight that ended with some people digging at the earth. I'm assuming that was the Architect using control over Darkspawn.

Third, just so I'm sure, does the Architect say he gave Urthemiel his Joining ritual? Because I believe it was said somewhere that the taint a Darkspawn gives off is what corrupts the Old Gods.

Fourth, there's nothing in-game to say that Corypheus and his drinking buddies were the first Darkspawn. We know they were the first Awakened Darkspawn, but that is not the same thing. Saying he was definitely the first Darkspawn is just assuming he was.

The Architect says that he tried his joinning ritual on the Old God.

While there is no way to tell that the magisters were the first Darkspawn, it is noteworthy that there is ZERO records of Darspawn previous to them entering the Black City. Since the Darkspawn only ever appeared after this, it is safe (at least safer) to say that the Magisters were the first, or at least amongst the first Darkspawn, than to say that Darkspawn always existed.

This.

It doesn't matter that they were controlling armies of Darkspawn.  It doesn't mean that their control is stronger than the Calling, which it cannot be given the creation of the Mother in the first place, i.e. if the Architects control was stronger than the calling, he would not have an Awakened Broodmother fighting against him in the first place.

So if the Architect did not have some basal level of Contact with Old Gods, he would not have not only beat all other Darkspawn to Urthemial, but would not have enough time to have him go through his Joining ritual and fail either, causing the fifth Blight.

Other points were covered by the quoted poster.

I still don't think one person should be able to topple the Chantry, and I will continue saying that until I am banned or stop coming here.

It ultimately should, like the Roman pantheon, and like Viking gods, be left behind by the people.  And that is a process that takes centuries.

Modifié par Harid, 05 août 2011 - 04:14 .

[TEWR]

Then why do we hear the same whispering Darkspawn hear in the battle with Meredith, indicating the lyrium idol from the thaig that predates the First blight (and predates the Dwarves themselves as they started to lose their kingdom during the first Blight) has a connection to the Darkspawn?


I believe it happened as the fight was beginning. I heard the whispering and was like "That.... sounded familiar."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[dragonflight288]

Not to mention Varic and Bartrand both claim to hear a song from the idol. In Awakening, the Mother constantly lamented no longer being able to hear the song.