223 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

I saw this today, and thought I would share with the assembled crowd. Enjoy!

http://www.gamasutra...res_dragon_.php

[Cutlass Jack]

Nice find. Though there's a paragraph in there that the interviewer wrote that I know will be misquoted as having been said by DG in the future.

[FieryDove]

Thanks for link!

"However, the criticism should not be dismissed as simple nostalgia. There are fans who felt disappointed..."

What a refreshing change. No fans just wanted DAO2, Fans cannot accept/handle change/innovations etc.

DG is still  awesome.

Modifié par FieryDove, 01 août 2011 - 06:23 .

[jds1bio]

Thanks, very interesting article.

I'm all for flavor in game, especially when it leads to people discussing the different experiences they've had with dialogue options and companion dialogue. And they should continue to tell the WGA the way it is when it comes to writing in games. And I can appreciate the challenge of choosing a different direction and trying to make it all hang together by the end.

However, I guess I still don't fully understand breaking up the writing into segments. Some of the sidequests ended up feeling detached by the endgame, as if they were threads that didn't quite fully get woven into Hawke's tapestry. Were they supposed to cross paths again with my playthrough, or were they designed to be more standalone? I'm also asking myself who is more responsible for this, BioWare, or me, since answering "no" or choosing largely aggressive dialogue options led to many "Questioning Beliefs" quests not even triggering.

[TEWR]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Nice find. Though there's a paragraph in there that the interviewer wrote that I know will be misquoted as having been said by DG in the future.

Let me guess.... the one where the interviewer said another game would be made and hit shelves fairly soon?


If so, I agree that it will be misquoted.

[Atakuma]

jds1bio wrote...
However, I guess I still don't fully understand breaking up the writing into segments. Some of the sidequests ended up feeling detached by the endgame, as if they were threads that didn't quite fully get woven into Hawke's tapestry. Were they supposed to cross paths again with my playthrough, or were they designed to be more standalone? I'm also asking myself who is more responsible for this, BioWare, or me, since answering "no" or choosing largely aggressive dialogue options led to many "Questioning Beliefs" quests not even triggering.

It seems like they wanted them to tie in more with the main plot, but they just didn't have the time or the money required to do so.

[Cutlass Jack]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Let me guess.... the one where the interviewer said another game would be made and hit shelves fairly soon?


If so, I agree that it will be misquoted.

No, the one about critics praising the game for setting a new bar in RPG storytelling, and harcore fans not liking change. (to purposely misquote it myself.)

[alex90c]

I can honestly say the only bit I disagreed with was:

every interaction involves complex dialogue choices that let the affect how plots evolve down the road.

Because there was nothing that even came close to "complex dialogue choices" in DA2. When talking to a quest-giver it was basically "I'll help you" in diplomatic, sarcastic and dickish tones, and then when you get the option to say no, you might even end up with a Shepherding Wolves case where you have to do the quest anyway.

Apart from that, it was great to see acknowledgement that people were pissed off with the game not just because it wasn't Origins 2.0 but because of how DA2 ITSELF was a game, standing on its own.

[Addai]

Interesting. I would have liked to have played the game they spend the first two pages describing.

[PinkShoes]

FieryDove wrote...

Thanks for link!

"However, the criticism should not be dismissed as simple nostalgia. There are fans who felt disappointed..."

What a refreshing change. No fans just wanted DAO2, Fans cannot accept/handle change/innovations etc.

DG is still  awesome.

I certainly didnt want DAO2, i was excited for Hawke, when i played the demo i was more excited because i was like yay they updated the combat! but the game was a dissappointment not due to nostalgia just due to it being an okay game. It was a c grade. The story was meh, lets face it Hawke was just an errand boy/girl and i just didnt feel close to any of the characters. And really how many times can you replay that game? The choices in DA2 are sericously lacking. DA2 did a few good things but the bad out weighed the good.

[Brockololly]

I know this bit isn't a quote from Gaider but its a bit of a hyperbole and apologetic (like much of the rest of the article):

Critics hailed the game as setting a new bar in RPG storytelling,  whereas fans -- particularly hardcore fans -- lambasted the game for  changes to its core mechanic. (The specific critiques centered largely  on gameplay issues that are beyond the scope of this article.)

Ummmm...no? Again, its what a 79 Metacritic game? Outside of the ridiculous PC Gamer and Escapist reviews I don't think the game was as universally praised by critics as this author makes it seem. It got middling reviews for the most part from critics and (generally) mediocre reviews from fans. Its not like its some critical gem the stupid plebs couldn't handle.

The polarized opinions didn't come as a surprise to Gaider and the DAII team. "If there's anything that's surprising," says Gaider, "it's just how polarized some of the reaction has been. There's a lot of love for Dragon Age among our fans, and that love can translate into passion.
"In my opinion, that's better than apathy, even if it forces you to  filter out the extremes. However, the criticism should not be dismissed  as simple nostalgia. There are fans who felt disappointed... and there's a feeling [on our team] that we want to improve from the groundwork  we've laid down. At the end of the day, Dragon Age can't be everything to everyone – so we simply have to pick a direction and make it the best experience we can."

Three things- First, the whole "polarized" opinion aspect which keeps coming up. With respect to DA2 specifically, I don't think opinions are that polarized, in that there seem to be quite a few people who think its spectacularly average and mediocre, with a decent chunk thinking its terrible and fewer thinking its amazing. Its just that you see far more extreme hate for the game than you see extreme love and adoration- not just here but across the internet.

Now I can see it as being polarizing if you're comparing love for Origins and defenders of Origins turning to hate for DA2. But even then, I think most of the opinion on DA2 is one of "Yeah, that wasn't terrible but it wasn't very good either." Or in other words, "Meh." Which is the epitome of apathy.

Second, while the response to DA2 may be seen as passionate (love or hate), I don't think its a good idea to go for that kind of divisiveness. I don't think thats what BioWare was aiming for, cause barring some amazing hook for DA3, I can all but guarantee that many of the people that were pissed off or passionate this time for DA2, will have entered the "I don't give a flying fook. DA is dead to me" apathetic phase. And since BioWare isn't churning out mass market Call of Duty selling games, they need their audience to buy their games.

Third, I never understand the nostalgia argument. Not that Gaider's saying it here, but Origins had been out all of about 16 months before DA2 came out? 

However, the writing team certainly stepped outside the box and  attempted redefined how game developers can tell a complex game  narrative. "This is something games have the potential for," says  Gaider, "but which we as an industry constantly underestimate."

Well, again, I understand what Gaider is saying, but a big part of the problem with recent BioWare games is that they're leaning far too much on the conventions of movies and TV to try and tell stories instead of trying to do things only games can do.

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[Dormiglione]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Nice find. Though there's a paragraph in there that the interviewer wrote that I know will be misquoted as having been said by DG in the future.

Let me guess.... the one where the interviewer said another game would be made and hit shelves fairly soon?


If so, I agree that it will be misquoted.

Yes, i think this paragraph will be misquoted.

[erynnar]

Brockololly wrote...

I know this bit isn't a quote from Gaider but its a bit of a hyperbole and apologetic (like much of the rest of the article):

Critics hailed the game as setting a new bar in RPG storytelling,  whereas fans -- particularly hardcore fans -- lambasted the game for  changes to its core mechanic. (The specific critiques centered largely  on gameplay issues that are beyond the scope of this article.)

Ummmm...no? Again, its what a 79 Metacritic game? Outside of the ridiculous PC Gamer and Escapist reviews I don't think the game was as universally praised by critics as this author makes it seem. It got middling reviews for the most part from critics and (generally) mediocre reviews from fans. Its not like its some critical gem the stupid plebs couldn't handle.

The polarized opinions didn't come as a surprise to Gaider and the DAII team. "If there's anything that's surprising," says Gaider, "it's just how polarized some of the reaction has been. There's a lot of love for Dragon Age among our fans, and that love can translate into passion.
"In my opinion, that's better than apathy, even if it forces you to  filter out the extremes. However, the criticism should not be dismissed  as simple nostalgia. There are fans who felt disappointed... and there's a feeling [on our team] that we want to improve from the groundwork  we've laid down. At the end of the day, Dragon Age can't be everything to everyone – so we simply have to pick a direction and make it the best experience we can."

Three things- First, the whole "polarized" opinion aspect which keeps coming up. With respect to DA2 specifically, I don't think opinions are that polarized, in that there seem to be quite a few people who think its spectacularly average and mediocre, with a decent chunk thinking its terrible and fewer thinking its amazing. Its just that you see far more extreme hate for the game than you see extreme love and adoration- not just here but across the internet.

Now I can see it as being polarizing if you're comparing love for Origins and defenders of Origins turning to hate for DA2. But even then, I think most of the opinion on DA2 is one of "Yeah, that wasn't terrible but it wasn't very good either." Or in other words, "Meh." Which is the epitome of apathy.

Second, while the response to DA2 may be seen as passionate (love or hate), I don't think its a good idea to go for that kind of divisiveness. I don't think thats what BioWare was aiming for, cause barring some amazing hook for DA3, I can all but guarantee that many of the people that were pissed off or passionate this time for DA2, will have entered the "I don't give a flying fook. DA is dead to me" apathetic phase. And since BioWare isn't churning out mass market Call of Duty selling games, they need their audience to buy their games.

Third, I never understand the nostalgia argument. Not that Gaider's saying it here, but Origins had been out all of about 16 months before DA2 came out? 

However, the writing team certainly stepped outside the box and  attempted redefined how game developers can tell a complex game  narrative. "This is something games have the potential for," says  Gaider, "but which we as an industry constantly underestimate."

Well, again, I understand what Gaider is saying, but a big part of the problem with recent BioWare games is that they're leaning far too much on the conventions of movies and TV to try and tell stories instead of trying to do things only games can do.

Nicely put Brock. 

@Jack, yeah I expect it to be misquoted too.

[Tommy6860]

Brockololly wrote...

I know this bit isn't a quote from Gaider but its a bit of a hyperbole and apologetic (like much of the rest of the article):

Critics hailed the game as setting a new bar in RPG storytelling,  whereas fans -- particularly hardcore fans -- lambasted the game for  changes to its core mechanic. (The specific critiques centered largely  on gameplay issues that are beyond the scope of this article.)

Ummmm...no? Again, its what a 79 Metacritic game? Outside of the ridiculous PC Gamer and Escapist reviews I don't think the game was as universally praised by critics as this author makes it seem. It got middling reviews for the most part from critics and (generally) mediocre reviews from fans. Its not like its some critical gem the stupid plebs couldn't handle.

The polarized opinions didn't come as a surprise to Gaider and the DAII team. "If there's anything that's surprising," says Gaider, "it's just how polarized some of the reaction has been. There's a lot of love for Dragon Age among our fans, and that love can translate into passion.
"In my opinion, that's better than apathy, even if it forces you to  filter out the extremes. However, the criticism should not be dismissed  as simple nostalgia. There are fans who felt disappointed... and there's a feeling [on our team] that we want to improve from the groundwork  we've laid down. At the end of the day, Dragon Age can't be everything to everyone – so we simply have to pick a direction and make it the best experience we can."

Three things- First, the whole "polarized" opinion aspect which keeps coming up. With respect to DA2 specifically, I don't think opinions are that polarized, in that there seem to be quite a few people who think its spectacularly average and mediocre, with a decent chunk thinking its terrible and fewer thinking its amazing. Its just that you see far more extreme hate for the game than you see extreme love and adoration- not just here but across the internet.

Now I can see it as being polarizing if you're comparing love for Origins and defenders of Origins turning to hate for DA2. But even then, I think most of the opinion on DA2 is one of "Yeah, that wasn't terrible but it wasn't very good either." Or in other words, "Meh." Which is the epitome of apathy.

Second, while the response to DA2 may be seen as passionate (love or hate), I don't think its a good idea to go for that kind of divisiveness. I don't think thats what BioWare was aiming for, cause barring some amazing hook for DA3, I can all but guarantee that many of the people that were pissed off or passionate this time for DA2, will have entered the "I don't give a flying fook. DA is dead to me" apathetic phase. And since BioWare isn't churning out mass market Call of Duty selling games, they need their audience to buy their games.

Third, I never understand the nostalgia argument. Not that Gaider's saying it here, but Origins had been out all of about 16 months before DA2 came out? 

However, the writing team certainly stepped outside the box and  attempted redefined how game developers can tell a complex game  narrative. "This is something games have the potential for," says  Gaider, "but which we as an industry constantly underestimate."

Well, again, I understand what Gaider is saying, but a big part of the problem with recent BioWare games is that they're leaning far too much on the conventions of movies and TV to try and tell stories instead of trying to do things only games can do.

Very well said Brock +10

[erynnar]

I hope they take longer than 16 months to give us DA3. That end part in the article made me shiver. NO more rushing BioWare, please, take your time.

[Huntress]

"A play-through of Dragon Age II has so many potential permutations that its story can't be evaluated as a single piece of screenwriting."

"In short, Dragon Age II was an experiment, and one executed over a relatively short time frame. As with any experiment, some things worked, and some did not.

Only sixteen months passed between the release of Origins and Dragon Age II, including a number of expansion packs released along the way, and with the continued popularity of the franchise, it's a safe bet that we'll see another game on the shelves fairly soon."

"BioWare remains committed to prioritizing game writing, and players continue to demonstrate their desire for well-crafted narrative, so it seems fair to guess that Gaider and his team will keep pushing the envelope in development cycles to come."

Good stuff!! But do that mean we gonna get yet another hero? rats! I hope not.
I undestand that DA2 was an experiment and I like it but.. is bioware going to finish hawke story? I am getting tired of new hero's, can we finish one story first please? I have so many questions about DA..
I want to see what happen after Hawke leave kirkwall, am going to miss her alot as much as the warden or more and if da3 is about a seeker..well, will see  but I dought I'll play it if is all about how good templars and chantry are.

I really like hawke, at least is not a warden unable to do much outside of the Order.

Modifié par Huntress, 01 août 2011 - 09:06 .

[Wulfram]

David Gaider's comments read like he's being diplomatic to the point of blandness, while the article itself reads as almost sycophantic.

Given the discussion of choices it would have been nice to have an exploration of why DA2 left a feeling of not allowing many impactful choices. Actually, the game seemed to have a strange desire to show you how meaningless your choices were.

[Tommy6860]

erynnar wrote...

I hope they take longer than 16 months to give us DA3. That end part in the article made me shiver. NO more rushing BioWare, please, take your time.

This^. I also disagree with using  the "polarized" meme for what Gaider descibes as the division betweeen those who like Origins and dislike DA2, somehow that if this meme didn't exist, that translated into meaning the fans were apathetic. Whatever he is trying to analogize, that is something he doesn't want for Bioware fans. I'll quote one line that struck me , as I thought he was way off the mark, as if he, as the main writer for DA2, suddenly forgot this same element was more prevalant in Origins:

"Gaider and lead designer Mike Laidlaw decided they didn't want to tell
the same story with new names and faces. If there was one thing about Origins'
writing that was often criticized, it was that the plot followed a
predictable Hero's Journey. So they decided to focus more on the "dark"
than the "heroic" in their "dark heroic" fantasy sequel, and go for a
grimmer, more personal tale."

I understand how certain fans criticized Origins in the "predictable" aspect, but that element of a story exists in most games anyway. But to imply that DA2 is somehow darker and more grim??? Seriously, Origins is far darker, not only in the story, but in atmosphere and especailly with the characters.

"On the one hand, it's a party-based dungeon-crawler, full of stats and levels and weapons and upgrades and so forth."

I can agree with this^, I felt soemtimes as if I had revisited Diablo, or Torchlight, except Diablo and Torchlight had many more variations to their enviroments. However, I stopped reading after I got to this part, as it sounded like advertising, and these very false prenises exists on the DA2 webpage when describing choices that have effects:

"However, the more unique and compelling aspect of the game is its
decision-making component: every interaction involves complex dialogue
choices that let the affect how plots evolve down the road. There are
hundreds of such interactions across the game, which means players end
up making hundreds of choices."

Complex choices?? Choosing emoticon laden replies is complex? Showing pre-schoolers how to use building blocks and watching them construct them was about the same effect, to be honest. I don't want to know the type of choice or response I make is going to be, by choosing paraphrases with the tone repesented by icons. I can make my own inflections reading it, which allows me to refelct what that choice means in tonality, etc. He talks about complexity, but it seems they decided to treat RPGers with hand holding instead.

I had more choices in any one of the primary plot quests in Origins that actually had effects than in all of DA2. IIRC, not many choices mattered down any road in DA2, it was nearly all predertermined.

<_<

Modifié par Tommy6860, 01 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[Mr.House]

DA2 has a 82 on Metacritic in fact,, which is not that far from the 87 TW2 has

[erynnar]

I was wondering about that. I didn't feel like my choices really mattered. And the game did seem to delight in showing me how useless it was to make them.

I didn't agonize over any choice in DA2. I did in DAO, sometimes it would take me a while to decide which path to do. I didn't have that sense of urgency in DA2.

[upsettingshorts]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Seriously, Origins is far darker, not only in the story, but in atmosphere and especailly with the characters.

It's times like these I wonder if I've played the same games as some people.

Tommy6860 wrote...

He talks about complexity, but it seems they decided to treat RPGers with hand holding instead.

*head explodes*

erynnar wrote...

I was wondering about that. I didn't feel
like my choices really mattered. And the game did seem to delight in
showing me how useless it was to make them.

I didn't agonize
over any choice in DA2. I did in DAO, sometimes it would take me a while
to decide which path to do. I didn't have that sense of urgency in DA2.

I agonized over every choice in DA2, because they allowed me to roleplay my character.

I agonized over a small handful of choices in DAO, because they allowed me to set plot flags.

To me, Hawke was a character.  The Warden was an avatar.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[Mr.House]

People who say that choices had no effect must have played a different game then me, or they just made different choices then I did and where not pleased.

[Wulfram]

Tommy6860 wrote...

I understand how certain fans criticized Origins in the "predictable" aspect, but that element of a story exists in most games anyway. But to imply that DA2 is somehow darker and more grim??? Seriously, Origins is far darker, not only in the story, but in atmosphere and especailly with the characters.

Origin's darkness is mostly countered by the PC's ability to fix things.  It ends with the world set to rights and the player gloriously triumphant.  While Hawke generally fails, and the game ends with them either fleeing in defeat or complicit in an atrocity.

[erynnar]

Mr.House wrote...

DA2 has a 82 on Metacritic in fact,, which is not that far from the 87 TW2 has

It's not the 82 on Metacritic that bothers me, it's the descrepancy between it and the user review score which is bigger and deeper than the Grand Canyon.

[upsettingshorts]

Take out every 0 and 10 and I wonder what user Metacritic score DA2 would have, since it clearly deserves neither.