223 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Many of the games I've played have given valid reasons for the protagonist to do something and caring about something.

DA2.... didn't really accomplish that.

[erynnar]

Not for me either Eth. I really didn't understand why not let Kirkwall burn.

[TEWR]

If I was Hawke and I saw Kirkwall as a flaming cesspool that was destined for the **** heap if action wasn't taken, I would've said to myself "As soon as I'm a noble I'm doing something about this ****ed up city!"


Alas, Hawke couldn't.

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If I was Hawke and I saw Kirkwall as a flaming cesspool that was destined for the **** heap if action wasn't taken, I would've said to myself "As soon as I'm a noble I'm doing something about this ****ed up city!"


Alas, Hawke couldn't.

LOL. Yeah, I could see Hawke once they got to be a noble again, maybe wanting to do something. Depending on the personality. My rogue, yeah. My mage...um, yeah, pack your bags we'er going with Bodhan and Sandal to Orlais!

[Morroian]

erynnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If I was Hawke and I saw Kirkwall as a flaming cesspool that was destined for the **** heap if action wasn't taken, I would've said to myself "As soon as I'm a noble I'm doing something about this ****ed up city!"


Alas, Hawke couldn't.

LOL. Yeah, I could see Hawke once they got to be a noble again, maybe wanting to do something. Depending on the personality. My rogue, yeah. My mage...um, yeah, pack your bags we'er going with Bodhan and Sandal to Orlais!

But thats sort of what they do at the end. 

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Honestly, I felt ME1 had the best rationale for Shepard doing what he does. And it's proactive, relatively speaking.

Well Shep can't exactly run away. Reapers are gonna be killing everybody out there.  

DA2 though...no abominations stalking you, the person in power probably wants nothing more than you to leave, you can afford to leave, one of potential friends might be a pirate! Another potential friend  maybe an apostate (yeah can't understand why an apostate would want to stay in templar central that's not Anders). Why not get the hell out? You're rich! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 août 2011 - 03:06 .

[FieryDove]

erynnar wrote...

My rogue, yeah. My mage...um, yeah, pack your bags we'er going with Bodhan and Sandal to Orlais!

After a certain event in act 2 I was like ok, that's it I'm leaving this city. (After many attempts) "What the?!" Dang plot has plot armor.

EDI8Joker wrote...
  The 'cash in quick' vibe does seem evident, and I think that's such a shame.  Bioware/EA had a chance to make this franchise an amazing, long-term product, but they missed the mark with DA2.

It's true but it had to be more or less. EA is hemorrhaging money on ToR.

Inon Zur-
"Unlike other titles from Bioware, this [score] was kind of a rush job. EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game was really being pushed hard to be released now."

In other words - We need $$ now not laters.

If the game was given 9-12 more months I wonder how it would have turned out. I also wonder the reverse, if ME3 had to push out in a short frame would they and fans been happy with it. (It was delayed what 9-10 months?)

We shall never know.

EDI8Joker wrote...

Regardless, I like what I hear from DG and hope Bioware can find a way to revitalize the DA universe when DA3 arrives

I agree.

[In Exile]

alex90c wrote...
Because there was nothing that even came close to "complex dialogue choices" in DA2. When talking to a quest-giver it was basically "I'll help you" in diplomatic, sarcastic and dickish tones, and then when you get the option to say no, you might even end up with a Shepherding Wolves case where you have to do the quest anyway.

You're not looking at this from the writing PoV. Having to make 3 tones fit with the original statement and making all look like it makes sense to the player is a lot of work. That you hate the way it was done doesn't mean it takes a lot of work to make it all make sense as presented. 

[In Exile]

erynnar wrote...
It's not the 82 on Metacritic that bothers me, it's the descrepancy between it and the user review score which is bigger and deeper than the Grand Canyon.

Until you look at gamespot... and find out that it has an 8.0 user review score and an 8.2 critic score. Metacritic has something going on that's not the same as what some other review sites have. 

[In Exile]

erynnar wrote...
Well, you're supposed to care to some extent. I guess that is where the writing comes in. It worked for me, but I can see how it wouldn't for everyone. If you didnt there wouldnt be a game. The Blight would destroy the world end of game. That would be really short.  

That's not the issue. We can all agree (after Ostagar) the Blight is "Bad News ™" and has to end.

The realm problem is the actual plot. Why stay in Ferelden? Because Flemeth (crazy old woman/abomination) and Alistair (apparently unhinged Warden recruit) say you've got 400 year old treaties? 

DA:O assumes you <3 Ferelden.

I guess it's the same as the writing for Hawke didn't really grab me.  Why was I suspposed to give a tinker's damn about my family? I hardly knew them. Why was I supposed to give a damn what happened to Kirkwall, or the mages and templars? I just wanted my Hawke to get the money from the first act and leave.  I really didn't have any motivation to stay.  

Like how I wanted to abandon Ferelden & rally Orlais. But that's the game. You have to buy into it.

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If I was Hawke and I saw Kirkwall as a flaming cesspool that was destined for the **** heap if action wasn't taken, I would've said to myself "As soon as I'm a noble I'm doing something about this ****ed up city!"


Alas, Hawke couldn't.

LOL. Yeah, I could see Hawke once they got to be a noble again, maybe wanting to do something. Depending on the personality. My rogue, yeah. My mage...um, yeah, pack your bags we'er going with Bodhan and Sandal to Orlais!

But thats sort of what they do at the end. 

My Hawke wouldn't have waited until Act 3's end to leave. She would have packed up mom, and everyone else, bought Izzy a ship and sailed for a different port o'call or left for Orlais. Any place but Kirkwall and well before it became an the Act 3 cluster****.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
 Its not like Origins where even if you wanted to  ditch Ferelden, Alistair would give you reasons why you needed to stay  that made sense. And unless your character was suicidal, once it was  established you needed to stay in Ferelden to stop the Blight, you had to do just that or the world would end and there was a reason it needed to be a Warden to do the job.

Alistair gave you absolutely no reasons that made sense. They were all "it would take too long to save Ferelden," but who gives a flying toss about Ferelden? Your options right there were to risk death to find the Orlesian (or Antivan, or Marcher) Wardens... or risk death trying to use 400 year old treaties in a territory where the blight is currently raging.

It was never established you needed to stay in Ferelden. 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 août 2011 - 04:27 .

[erynnar]

In Exile wrote...

erynnar wrote...
It's not the 82 on Metacritic that bothers me, it's the descrepancy between it and the user review score which is bigger and deeper than the Grand Canyon.

Until you look at gamespot... and find out that it has an 8.0 user review score and an 8.2 critic score. Metacritic has something going on that's not the same as what some other review sites have. 

Hm, that's interesting. Like I said I don't go on Metacritic much. Hardly ever. I will have to go check that out.

[erynnar]

In Exile wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Well, you're supposed to care to some extent. I guess that is where the writing comes in. It worked for me, but I can see how it wouldn't for everyone. If you didnt there wouldnt be a game. The Blight would destroy the world end of game. That would be really short.  

That's not the issue. We can all agree (after Ostagar) the Blight is "Bad News ™" and has to end.

The realm problem is the actual plot. Why stay in Ferelden? Because Flemeth (crazy old woman/abomination) and Alistair (apparently unhinged Warden recruit) say you've got 400 year old treaties? 

DA:O assumes you <3 Ferelden.

I guess it's the same as the writing for Hawke didn't really grab me.  Why was I suspposed to give a tinker's damn about my family? I hardly knew them. Why was I supposed to give a damn what happened to Kirkwall, or the mages and templars? I just wanted my Hawke to get the money from the first act and leave.  I really didn't have any motivation to stay.  

Like how I wanted to abandon Ferelden & rally Orlais. But that's the game. You have to buy into it.

The same thing with DA2 assuming you love Kirkwall, or feel it's home. If I have been moving all my life (and I have in RL) then home is wherever I am. But they assume you <3 Kirkwall and need to stay and defend it. Quite frankly, I didn't give two craps about Kirkwall. And in RL I have no ties with one state, town, or city. I moved every two years, so I figured my Hawke would feel the same way about Kirkwall, that it doesn't really matter, and it's bat **** crazy. I would have left when I had the money and cheerfully never looked back.

The game wouldn't let us do that. Just like you had to <3 Ferleden and be a Warden. It is a game, it has a story to tell, and we are playing in that story. So there are limitations on what you can say yes or no to. I preferred buying into being a Grey Warden and saving the world. It made sense to me. Why my Hawke got stuck in Kirkwall, didn't make sense to me.


Edited to say, the writing did make me love Ferelden. The writing didn't make me love Kirkwall, which to me, had no redeeming qualities save "The Hanged Man." That is the only thing from Kirkwall I would have missed.

If the writing had made me love Kirkwall,other than "mommy feels like it is home," a home she hasn't been in in years, some bond, something that would have made me want to stay and defend it...then yeah. It would have made sense to me like "if we don't end the Blight here, it will spread to the reast of Thedas and kill lots of innocent people."

As far as I'm concerned, or my Hawke rather, is that Kirkwall needs to be evacuated and it needs to bombed from the face of Thedas until it is nothing but a smoking crater.

Modifié par erynnar, 02 août 2011 - 04:47 .

[marshalleck]

fluff piece

[erynnar]

marshalleck wrote...

fluff piece

Sorry, the interview, or DA2? I am confused, sorry.

[Dragoonlordz]

@You had more patience than me Ery.

I would never have even entered Kirkwall to begin with especially not just because his mommy told him/her too. I would have taken another boat or even walked to the next city and I certainly would never havee delivered Flemmeths trinket to Sundermount even without knowing beforehand the story and plot of DA2. I would have taken it and sold it/traded it in for food and water and moved to next city. It was always going to be their story being told by their writing however the difference between DAO and DA2 is one felt more open even if was illusion and thats a result of the vast amount more time spent on developing it, while the other being DA2 felt way too forced all the way through right upto the end and especially around acts as they bottlenecked between each followed by a horendeous ending as far as being forced actions regardless of side picked and the choices themselves leading upto that point.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 août 2011 - 05:36 .

[Bryy_Miller]

The whole breakdown of the writing and design process was great.

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

@You had more patience than me Ery.

I would never have even entered Kirkwall to begin with especially not just because his mommy told him/her too. I would have taken another boat or even walked to the next city and I certainly would never havee delivered Flemmeths trinket to Sundermount even without knowing beforehand the story and plot of DA2. I would have taken it and sold it/traded it in for food and water and moved to next city. It was always going to be their story being told by their writing however the difference between DAO and DA2 is one felt more open even if was illusion and thats a result of the vast amount more time spent on developing it, while the other being DA2 felt way too forced all the way through right upto the end and especially around acts as they bottlenecked between each followed by a horendeous ending as far as being forced actions regardless of side picked and the choices themselves leading upto that point.

Yeah, totally see my mage Hawke doing just that. Keep on walking and sell that pendant for money to live on in the next town while I and my sibling and Aveline look for work. ROFL!

It was bottle necked and forced to me too.

[Elhanan]

Sorry; busy playing DA2 again to ready my PC for the newest DLC. But at a glance, it appears I missed any actual constructual crit of the interview; just more complaints of a game I continue to enjoy.

Carry on; pls don't let the actual intended content sway any from more of the same.

[fightright2]

erynnar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Well, you're supposed to care to some extent. I guess that is where the writing comes in. It worked for me, but I can see how it wouldn't for everyone. If you didnt there wouldnt be a game. The Blight would destroy the world end of game. That would be really short.  

That's not the issue. We can all agree (after Ostagar) the Blight is "Bad News ™" and has to end.

The realm problem is the actual plot. Why stay in Ferelden? Because Flemeth (crazy old woman/abomination) and Alistair (apparently unhinged Warden recruit) say you've got 400 year old treaties? 

DA:O assumes you <3 Ferelden.

I guess it's the same as the writing for Hawke didn't really grab me.  Why was I suspposed to give a tinker's damn about my family? I hardly knew them. Why was I supposed to give a damn what happened to Kirkwall, or the mages and templars? I just wanted my Hawke to get the money from the first act and leave.  I really didn't have any motivation to stay.  

Like how I wanted to abandon Ferelden & rally Orlais. But that's the game. You have to buy into it.

The same thing with DA2 assuming you love Kirkwall, or feel it's home. If I have been moving all my life (and I have in RL) then home is wherever I am. But they assume you <3 Kirkwall and need to stay and defend it. Quite frankly, I didn't give two craps about Kirkwall. And in RL I have no ties with one state, town, or city. I moved every two years, so I figured my Hawke would feel the same way about Kirkwall, that it doesn't really matter, and it's bat **** crazy. I would have left when I had the money and cheerfully never looked back.

The game wouldn't let us do that. Just like you had to <3 Ferleden and be a Warden. It is a game, it has a story to tell, and we are playing in that story. So there are limitations on what you can say yes or no to. I preferred buying into being a Grey Warden and saving the world. It made sense to me. Why my Hawke got stuck in Kirkwall, didn't make sense to me.


Edited to say, the writing did make me love Ferelden. The writing didn't make me love Kirkwall, which to me, had no redeeming qualities save "The Hanged Man." That is the only thing from Kirkwall I would have missed.

If the writing had made me love Kirkwall,other than "mommy feels like it is home," a home she hasn't been in in years, some bond, something that would have made me want to stay and defend it...then yeah. It would have made sense to me like "if we don't end the Blight here, it will spread to the reast of Thedas and kill lots of innocent people."

As far as I'm concerned, or my Hawke rather, is that Kirkwall needs to be evacuated and it needs to bombed from the face of Thedas until it is nothing but a smoking crater.

I agree Eryn.

I could see how Hawke's mother would feel that it was home. She grew up there. But Hawke? Ok, so get mother into Kirkwall, then the rest of us can go on elsewhere.

So, instead, we decide to stay... for mother.
At one point, I was thinking, wow, Kirkwall- the place where my brother grew to hate me, my mother died, my LI drop kicked me the morning after and I am supposed to care about the city?

Honestly, I didn't think the story had a lot of reasoning behind the motivations for a lot of things, not just about residing there.

It would have made more sense to have built a business with my mother there. The struggle to get it off the ground while filled with moments/scenes where we bonded deeper than ever.

Heck, they could have thrown in a lullabye that she used to hear her mother sing to her. Something to show how Hawke touched on the 'home-like' feeling.

Maybe, then I could reason, home for my Hawke means home is where mother is.
And protecting Kirkwall means protecting the place where good memories happened with my mother before she died.

[alex90c]

In Exile wrote...

alex90c wrote...
Because there was nothing that even came close to "complex dialogue choices" in DA2. When talking to a quest-giver it was basically "I'll help you" in diplomatic, sarcastic and dickish tones, and then when you get the option to say no, you might even end up with a Shepherding Wolves case where you have to do the quest anyway.

You're not looking at this from the writing PoV. Having to make 3 tones fit with the original statement and making all look like it makes sense to the player is a lot of work. That you hate the way it was done doesn't mean it takes a lot of work to make it all make sense as presented. 

yes, and i'm talking about the player's experience, so the writer's PoV has nothing to do with it:?

and what i'm saying is AS A PLAYER, being able to crack "jokes" and still being able to complete the game with every single quest done is absolute bull, and not "complex dialogue choices" at all.

---

as for the YOU MUST LOVE FERELDEN AND GREY WARDENS stuff, I dunno, I've played a reluctant hero warden for like, five of my six playthroughs (I try not to ... but being a Grey Warden's gonna suck a few decades down the line) and i've felt perfectly fine with it. i''m all like "hey wynne grey wardens suck i wanna be with my clan again" or "alistair grey wardens suck i wanna go to orzammar again" and things to that effect and i've had no problem roleplaying those characters. DA2 on the other hand .... can Bioware honestly say Kirkwall had any redeeming qualities offering you a reason to stay there?

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
The issue is that most choices either ended in the same outcome no matter what

This is what I mean when I say the people who say DA2 had no choice and those that say it had a lot of choice aren't really talking about the same thing.

Character: "How do you feel about X?"
Hawke: "Well, I feel A about it."
Character:  "Indeed?  [Response 1]."

Character: "How do you feel about X?"
Hawke: "Well, I feel B about it."
Character:  "Indeed?  [Response 2]."

Character: "How do you feel about X?"
Hawke: "Well, I feel C about it."
Character:  "Indeed?  [Response 3]."

Character: "How do you feel about X?"
Hawke: "Your mother!" *stab*
Character:  "Owie" *dies*

These are present in almost every significant conversation Dragon Age 2, from when Fenris, Aveline, or your sibling literally asks you how you feel about Ferelden to when you decide what to do with some outlaw mages and why.  As someone who enjoys roleplaying their way through the kind of person Hawke is, I would categorize every single one as a choice with different outcomes.
Origins had a couple chances for this in total, and excepting Wynne I'd have a hard time describing many more in any kind of detail.  I mean, DAO was the kind of game where you'd remind Alistair that your parents were brutally murdered in a vicious act of betrayal and he'd either immediately end the conversation or immediately move back to his own grief because the game simply wasn't built to accomodate how the Warden felt about anything.  Because it wasn't really trying to.
No, DA2 doesn't have as many (or as obvious) instances where Hawke can set worldstate changing plot flags like deciding who is King of Orzammar.  But those are simply another kind of choice, not the only kind.

I would have love to have made those choices. Too bad the interface got in the way seven times out of ten. Specially when I got the "Your mother! *stab* result from a nonconfrotational conversation chocie.

[upsettingshorts]

Xewaka wrote...

I would have love to have made those choices. Too bad the interface got in the way seven times out of ten.

Learn to speak paraphrase.

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
I would have love to have made those choices. Too bad the interface got in the way seven times out of ten.

Learn to speak paraphrase.

A Sten image macro would be adequate here.
Besides, I tried, but everytime I thought I could at least cruise through it that in-screen idiot said something completely irrelevant or opposed to what I expected.
It's a shame they go through the amount of work they do to write the game with choice and then go out of their way to hide said choice from the player (edit added for topic relevance).

Modifié par Xewaka, 02 août 2011 - 11:00 .