223 réponses à ce sujet

[Firky]

That was a really interesting article. It's nice to get some insight into the process. Sounds rather complicated. And, to be honest, with a writing team of five, the writing felt pretty consistent across the game to me. How on Earth do they achieve that?

[Leonia]

Wakka doesn't like paraphrases? Who knew!

[Xewaka]

Firky wrote...
That was a really interesting article. It's nice to get some insight into the process. Sounds rather complicated. And, to be honest, with a writing team of five, the writing felt pretty consistent across the game to me. How on Earth do they achieve that?

Locking them up in a room until they all have a hive mind or murder each other.
Well, I say room but it's actually a pit.
The Writer's Pit.

Esbatty wrote...
I heard there was a sixth writer but something happened in that pit and they refuse to talk about him/her.

It was around lunch in crunch time and catering was nowhere to be found. Sacrifices were made.

leonia42 wrote...
Wakka doesn't like paraphrases? Who knew!

I know, right? It's almost as if they actively worked counterpurpose to my enjoyment of the game!

Modifié par Xewaka, 02 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[Esbatty]

I heard there was a sixth writer but something happened in that pit and they refuse to talk about him/her.

[ScotGaymer]

On the whole I really enjoyed the writing in this game for the most part. I love DG and his writing team so I am not shocked by that at all.

I do have two problems with it though.

First is the paraphrasing system; it kind of sucks. Its worse than Mass Effect's. Lost count of the amount of times Hawke made me go "huh?" in response to what he said. Though at least ManHawke is pleasant to listen to (his VA did a great job!) I pity the FemHawke players; god her Voice Acting was terrible lol.

Second I am not sure if it is more a function of gameplay or the writing but I detest the ending. Its awful; really truely awful.
You play the game and it feels fine; your having fun and then you get to the end and the end slaps you in the face and says "Ha Ha! Your choices mean nothing! Playing this game was pointless! Ha Ha!" like Nelson from the Simpsons.

I blame it on the short Dev Cycle.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 02 août 2011 - 11:59 .

[upsettingshorts]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

First is the paraphrasing system; it kind of sucks. Its worse than Mass Effect's. Lost count of the amount of times Hawke made me go "huh?" in response to what he said.

Can you think of some specific examples?

When compared to Mass Effect - as opposed to Origins - I thought the paraphrase/icon setup was significantly clearer in indicating what Hawke was going to say or do.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 août 2011 - 12:18 .

[alex90c]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

First is the paraphrasing system; it kind of sucks. Its worse than Mass Effect's. Lost count of the amount of times Hawke made me go "huh?" in response to what he said.

Can you think of some specific examples?

When compared to Mass Effect - as opposed to Origins - I thought the paraphrase/icon setup was significantly clearer in indicating what Hawke was going to say or do.

"i want to be a dragon"

=

thx for killing those darkspawn!!!

[AloraKast]

erynnar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Well, you're supposed to care to some extent. I guess that is where the writing comes in. It worked for me, but I can see how it wouldn't for everyone. If you didnt there wouldnt be a game. The Blight would destroy the world end of game. That would be really short.  

That's not the issue. We can all agree (after Ostagar) the Blight is "Bad News ™" and has to end.

The realm problem is the actual plot. Why stay in Ferelden? Because Flemeth (crazy old woman/abomination) and Alistair (apparently unhinged Warden recruit) say you've got 400 year old treaties? 

DA:O assumes you <3 Ferelden.

I guess it's the same as the writing for Hawke didn't really grab me.  Why was I suspposed to give a tinker's damn about my family? I hardly knew them. Why was I supposed to give a damn what happened to Kirkwall, or the mages and templars? I just wanted my Hawke to get the money from the first act and leave.  I really didn't have any motivation to stay.  

Like how I wanted to abandon Ferelden & rally Orlais. But that's the game. You have to buy into it.

The same thing with DA2 assuming you love Kirkwall, or feel it's home. If I have been moving all my life (and I have in RL) then home is wherever I am. But they assume you <3 Kirkwall and need to stay and defend it. Quite frankly, I didn't give two craps about Kirkwall. And in RL I have no ties with one state, town, or city. I moved every two years, so I figured my Hawke would feel the same way about Kirkwall, that it doesn't really matter, and it's bat **** crazy. I would have left when I had the money and cheerfully never looked back.

The game wouldn't let us do that. Just like you had to <3 Ferleden and be a Warden. It is a game, it has a story to tell, and we are playing in that story. So there are limitations on what you can say yes or no to. I preferred buying into being a Grey Warden and saving the world. It made sense to me. Why my Hawke got stuck in Kirkwall, didn't make sense to me.


Edited to say, the writing did make me love Ferelden. The writing didn't make me love Kirkwall, which to me, had no redeeming qualities save "The Hanged Man." That is the only thing from Kirkwall I would have missed.

If the writing had made me love Kirkwall,other than "mommy feels like it is home," a home she hasn't been in in years, some bond, something that would have made me want to stay and defend it...then yeah. It would have made sense to me like "if we don't end the Blight here, it will spread to the reast of Thedas and kill lots of innocent people."

As far as I'm concerned, or my Hawke rather, is that Kirkwall needs to be evacuated and it needs to bombed from the face of Thedas until it is nothing but a smoking crater.

@erynnar... I  you!

Really, considering that it took Hawke and co. a year to work off the debt of getting into the city and then some additional time gathering the moneys for the expedition... not to mention the time it took getting yer arses outta the Deep Roads, etc... I would have made sure I got all my affairs sorted, got Isabella a nice, shiny ship, gathered all my belongings and my companions and hightailed it back to Ferelden.  The Blight was defeated in a year or so, therefore that would lead me to believe that as soon as I got my bruised and beaten up party back from the Deep Roads, it would have been feasably safe to return to Ferelden and rebuild, especially with all the $$$ I now had in my possession. Yes, Lothering was destroyed but no reason you couldn't have gone back to rebuild or even move to Denerim or Redcliffe or Highever or whenever else your little heart desired. I mean you had enough money to elevate you to the noble status in Kirkwall, I am sure you had enough money to pick any part of Ferelden and rebuild.

Like you erynnar, I totally fell in love with Ferelden, I cared about its plight and the people, the story and the writing made me care... whereas I didn't give two hoots about the insane **** pile that is Kirkwall. I just felt the story and the characters of DA2 weren't developed enough, they needed to be fleshed out more, they weren't given the chance for me to form that personal connection, that bond that allows me to care about people and events in a story... even my family members felt flat.

[Dubya75]

Firky wrote...

That was a really interesting article. It's nice to get some insight into the process. Sounds rather complicated. And, to be honest, with a writing team of five, the writing felt pretty consistent across the game to me. How on Earth do they achieve that?

I have to agree, I'm also appreciating the game more having learnt what a massive undertaking something like this really is. Pretty darn good writing if you ask me...

[erynnar]

Dubya75 wrote...

Firky wrote...

That was a really interesting article. It's nice to get some insight into the process. Sounds rather complicated. And, to be honest, with a writing team of five, the writing felt pretty consistent across the game to me. How on Earth do they achieve that?

I have to agree, I'm also appreciating the game more having learnt what a massive undertaking something like this really is. Pretty darn good writing if you ask me...

Oh the article was really interesting. And yes, there is a lot of work to it all. The writers are definitely talented, no question. But with that kind of undertaking, 18 months is just not enough.

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

First is the paraphrasing system; it kind of sucks. Its worse than Mass Effect's. Lost count of the amount of times Hawke made me go "huh?" in response to what he said.

Can you think of some specific examples?

When compared to Mass Effect - as opposed to Origins - I thought the paraphrase/icon setup was significantly clearer in indicating what Hawke was going to say or do.

"i want to be a dragon"

=

thx for killing those darkspawn!!!

Wrong, if you pick that option, Hawke says "You can show me that trick of yours"

[jds1bio]

Mr.House wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

First is the paraphrasing system; it kind of sucks. Its worse than Mass Effect's. Lost count of the amount of times Hawke made me go "huh?" in response to what he said.

Can you think of some specific examples?

When compared to Mass Effect - as opposed to Origins - I thought the paraphrase/icon setup was significantly clearer in indicating what Hawke was going to say or do.

"i want to be a dragon"

=

thx for killing those darkspawn!!!

Wrong, if you pick that option, Hawke says "You can show me that trick of yours"

Yeah, it's like "Play it again, Sam", or "Beam me up, Scotty" - things that never actually get said.

Modifié par jds1bio, 02 août 2011 - 04:03 .

[AloraKast]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

First is the paraphrasing system; it kind of sucks. Its worse than Mass Effect's. Lost count of the amount of times Hawke made me go "huh?" in response to what he said.

Can you think of some specific examples?

When compared to Mass Effect - as opposed to Origins - I thought the paraphrase/icon setup was significantly clearer in indicating what Hawke was going to say or do.

Ya know Upsettingshorts, I honestly cannot thing of specific examples right this moment (could also be due to the fact that it's been a while since I played the main DA2 game) but, like FitScotGaymer, I remember numerous moments when I played the game and had trouble with the paraphrased lines on the wheel  suggesting one thing and then what Hawke actually said taking me completely by surprise by saying something totally different. I can't say whether it was merely the case of misleading paraphrasing or perhaps a combination of paraphrasing not matching what we think the character will say and the VO actor delivering the line in a certain way or with a certain inflection in the voice that was totally unexpected.

It's kinda like I want to say that of course with a voiced protagonist this problem will be present because what we believe a paraphrased line will sound like, what we while roleplaying have in our heads and what it will sound like coming across, well it doesn't always match up with what the voiced character will say and HOW he'll say it... but you know what, I don't recall experiencing this problem or coming across the jarring effect in either of the Mass Effect games. Now we only need to get to the root of the problem or rather the difference, why it worked in Mass Effect and it didn't work in DA2... perhaps it was just that; the misaligned or misleading paraphrasing combined with the acting of the VO actor that didn't quite match up what the writers has in mind?

As for the icons, I generally can figure out whether a response I am choosing will be diplomatic, sarcastic or aggresive even without the icons... but of course, it all depends on the quality of the paraphrased text we are presented with. If it was the case the the three paraphrased options on the dialogue wheel were exactly the same, then yes, absolutely, the icons are a must.

NPC: "Good morning Hawke. What a gorgeous sunny day we are having, don't you think?"
Hawke: "No" (diplomatic) = "I kinda miss the rain we had in Ferelden"
Hawke: "No" (sarcastic) = "Absolutely, who needs the crops watered anyways?"
Hawke: "No" (aggresive) = "*hungover* It's way too early to be so frikken cheerful. Die!" *stab*

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

The realm problem is the actual plot. Why stay in Ferelden? Because Flemeth (crazy old woman/abomination) and Alistair (apparently unhinged Warden recruit) say you've got 400 year old treaties? 

DA:O assumes you  Ferelden.

That simplifies it rather unfairly, i think.

For some of the origins you are provided with more personal reasons to try and protect the population -- there's either your clan, or your friends and relatives, or even subjects you may still feel obliged to care for. For everyone there's also question of moral responsibility -- you may not care about Ferelden as political construct, but its denizens are living people, with everyone being someone's mother, father, child, sibling etc... and as it happens, you are one of few person in position to prevent their deaths. For some people this can be enough of a reason to indeed do what they can.

And for the selfish types -- the position the game puts you in grants you unique opportunity to gather massive power and political clout, should you succeed. An opportunity which isn't very likely to repeat itself in your character's lifetime. That is also pretty valid reason to follow with the plot.

Like how I wanted to abandon Ferelden & rally Orlais. But that's the game. You have to buy into it.

Abandoning Ferelden and "rallying Orlais" means a senior warden takes over as soon as you bring the news and you are delegated to serving as grunt #482 in the final battle. If they even bother to enter Ferelden as opposed to just waiting on the border, where it results in the same battle. Not much of a game.

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 août 2011 - 04:43 .

[alex90c]

Mr.House wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

First is the paraphrasing system; it kind of sucks. Its worse than Mass Effect's. Lost count of the amount of times Hawke made me go "huh?" in response to what he said.

Can you think of some specific examples?

When compared to Mass Effect - as opposed to Origins - I thought the paraphrase/icon setup was significantly clearer in indicating what Hawke was going to say or do.

"i want to be a dragon"

=

thx for killing those darkspawn!!!

Wrong, if you pick that option, Hawke says "You can show me that trick of yours"

WOW WHAT A DIFFERENCE

Point = paraphrasing sucks
your post = does nothing but support what I said

I found the ME paraphrasing way better since rather than trying to shorten things down it kind of just stated the subject. Take for example if you go to Noveria and talk to random NPC #3689 on the investigate options you'd get the following options to click:

> Personal questions ( e.g. "so, who are you and what do you do here?")
> Benezia (e.g. "have you seen an asari matriarch around here recently?")
> Anoleis (e.g. "what do you know about Anoleis?")
> Noveria (e.g. "so what do you know about this place?")

Rather than:

a 'wanna be a durrrgon

you can show me that trick of yours!

[In Exile]

alex90c wrote...
yes, and i'm talking about the player's experience, so the writer's PoV has nothing to do with it:?

Given that you were addressing interview that David Gaider gave about being a writer at Bioware the PoV of the writer seems to matter quitea  lot.

as for the YOU MUST LOVE FERELDEN AND GREY WARDENS stuff, I dunno, I've played a reluctant hero warden for like, five of my six playthroughs (I try not to ... but being a Grey Warden's gonna suck a few decades down the line) and i've felt perfectly fine with it.

I wasn't reluctant. I wanted to save Thedas. I just didn't want to join the Wardens, or stay in Ferelden. Being a reluctant hero is not the same as disagreeing with the plot you're forced into.

i''m all like "hey wynne grey wardens suck i wanna be with my clan again" or "alistair grey wardens suck i wanna go to orzammar again" and things to that effect and i've had no problem roleplaying those characters.

You don't have those options in DA:O. You can't mention them, you have to say you're a Grey Warden, Wynne forces you to I <3 Wardens (as does the Fade in the Circle Tower). 

DA2 on the other hand .... can Bioware honestly say Kirkwall had any redeeming qualities offering you a reason to stay there?

That's true of every single Bioware game. You either buy into it or you don't.

Modifié par In Exile, 03 août 2011 - 03:11 .

[In Exile]

erynnar wrote...
The same thing with DA2 assuming you love Kirkwall, or feel it's home. If I have been moving all my life (and I have in RL) then home is wherever I am. But they assume you <3 Kirkwall and need to stay and defend it. Quite frankly, I didn't give two craps about Kirkwall. And in RL I have no ties with one state, town, or city. I moved every two years, so I figured my Hawke would feel the same way about Kirkwall, that it doesn't really matter, and it's bat **** crazy. I would have left when I had the money and cheerfully never looked back.

Right - it's exactly like DA:O. And KoTOR. And JE. It's basically... every Bioware game having the forced hook.

The game wouldn't let us do that. Just like you had to <3 Ferleden and be a Warden. It is a game, it has a story to tell, and we are playing in that story. So there are limitations on what you can say yes or no to. I preferred buying into being a Grey Warden and saving the world. It made sense to me. Why my Hawke got stuck in Kirkwall, didn't make sense to me. 

It made no sense to me why I had to stick in Ferelden with an insane quests to use basically rotten treaty paper to try and defeat the blight.

It would have made sense to me like "if we don't end the Blight here, it will spread to the reast of Thedas and kill lots of innocent people."

You can counter that by saying there is no other reasonable option other than to bring the Grey Wardens.

It's actually hilarious how bad the writing is when it comes to that, because the Blight can't be defeated without the Wardens. So it turns out that the option that involves just you & Alistair is basically the most insane option, because the only viable strategy is "have GW kill archdemon".

tmp7704 wrote...

For some of the origins you are provided with more personal reasons to try and protect the population -- there's either your clan, or your friends and relatives, or even subjects you may still feel obliged to care for.

Which is just I <3 (Part of) Ferelden. No different than I <3 Ferelden.

For everyone there's also question of moral responsibility -- you may not care about Ferelden as political construct, but its denizens are living people, with everyone being someone's mother, father, child, sibling etc... and as it happens, you are one of few person in position to prevent their deaths. For some people this can be enough of a reason to indeed do what they can.

Orlais also has innocent lives. So does Antiva. And even Tevinter. 

When it comes down to saving the most possible lives it comes down to thinking the plan is good or bad. And at that point, there's no reason to believe Alistair/Flemeth's completely insane plan to use a 400 year old treaties has a chance in hell of working.

And for the selfish types -- the position the game puts you in grants you unique opportunity to gather massive power and political clout, should you succeed. An opportunity which isn't very likely to repeat itself in your character's lifetime. That is also pretty valid reason to follow with the plot.

Unless you think the payoff is impossible. 

Abandoning Ferelden and "rallying Orlais" means a senior warden takes over as soon as you bring the news and you are delegated to serving as grunt #482 in the final battle. If they even bother to enter Ferelden as opposed to just waiting on the border, where it results in the same battle. Not much of a game.

It has nothing to do with it being a game, and everything to do with believing it is the best choice. Who cares, again, about Ferelden?

[erynnar]

In Exile wrote...

alex90c wrote...
yes, and i'm talking about the player's experience, so the writer's PoV has nothing to do with it:?

Given that you were addressing interview that David Gaider gave about being a writer at Bioware the PoV of the writer seems to matter quitea  lot.

as for the YOU MUST LOVE FERELDEN AND GREY WARDENS stuff, I dunno, I've played a reluctant hero warden for like, five of my six playthroughs (I try not to ... but being a Grey Warden's gonna suck a few decades down the line) and i've felt perfectly fine with it.

I wasn't reluctant. I wanted to save Thedas. I just didn't want to join the Wardens, or stay in Ferelden. Being a reluctant hero is not the same as disagreeing with the plot you're forced into.

i''m all like "hey wynne grey wardens suck i wanna be with my clan again" or "alistair grey wardens suck i wanna go to orzammar again" and things to that effect and i've had no problem roleplaying those characters.

You don't have those options in DA:O. You can't mention them, you have to say you're a Grey Warden, Wynne forces you to I <3 Wardens (as does the Fade in the Circle Tower). 

DA2 on the other hand .... can Bioware honestly say Kirkwall had any redeeming qualities offering you a reason to stay there?

That's true of every single Bioware game. You either buy into it or you don't.

Then you either buy into it, or don't play it more than once, if you get through it at all. Sales seem to indicate more bought into DAO's story and being a Grey Warden than bought into being a Ferelden refugee who becomes Champion of Kirkwall.

[Morroian]

erynnar wrote...

Then you either buy into it, or don't play it more than once, if you get through it at all. Sales seem to indicate more bought into DAO's story and being a Grey Warden than bought into being a Ferelden refugee who becomes Champion of Kirkwall.

One thing I do wonder about the sales though is how much of the decline was due to those who didn't like DAO. I know pre-orders for DA2 were strong due to those who liked DAO pre-ordering it, but in terms of total sales there has to be an element of those who didn't like DAO affecting sales, the question is how large is it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

DA2 on the other hand .... can Bioware honestly say Kirkwall had any redeeming qualities offering you a reason to stay there?

That's true of every single Bioware game. You either buy into it or you don't.

Isn't that the case with every game in existence?

Though, for me, it's accentuated by the fact that Bioware does not have set characters.
A set character can have a purpose I completely disagree with or find stupid, and I'd still be interested if he / she is interesting and projected in an interesting story / setting. Batman would be the biggest example for me.

But when I have to play characters that lean towards 1rst person, or stand in the awkward middle between 1rst and 3rd, I struggle to care if I am badly being forced into doing something I find has no point or logic to it, while also being forced to give a reason for my PC to care that is ultimately immaterial and inconsequential in the game itself. Unless I happen to buy into it and the game mantained my interest.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[Morroian]

erynnar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

alex90c wrote...

DA2 on the other hand .... can Bioware honestly say Kirkwall had any redeeming qualities offering you a reason to stay there?

That's true of every single Bioware game. You either buy into it or you don't.

Then you either buy into it, or don't play it more than once, if you get through it at all. Sales seem to indicate more bought into DAO's story and being a Grey Warden than bought into being a Ferelden refugee who becomes Champion of Kirkwall.

It just occurred to me, the reason for staying in Kirkwall is in the framing story. Obviously this stil requires buy in from the player but it is the method by which BW chose to get such buy in.

Modifié par Morroian, 03 août 2011 - 03:43 .

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

alex90c wrote...

DA2 on the other hand .... can Bioware honestly say Kirkwall had any redeeming qualities offering you a reason to stay there?

That's true of every single Bioware game. You either buy into it or you don't.

Then you either buy into it, or don't play it more than once, if you get through it at all. Sales seem to indicate more bought into DAO's story and being a Grey Warden than bought into being a Ferelden refugee who becomes Champion of Kirkwall.

It just occurred to me, the reason for staying in Kirkwall is in the framing story. Obviously this stil requires buy in from the player but it is the method by which BW chose to get such buy in.

Which means to me weak story. If you have to railroad it that hard, instead of giving the reasons why and hoping the player buys in, then it's not that strong.

I should stay in Kirkwall because of mommy? I could, once I had the money set up mommy, and head out. for my own adventures if she refused to go. and afer she <spoiler> I had even less reason to stay.

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Then you either buy into it, or don't play it more than once, if you get through it at all. Sales seem to indicate more bought into DAO's story and being a Grey Warden than bought into being a Ferelden refugee who becomes Champion of Kirkwall.

One thing I do wonder about the sales though is how much of the decline was due to those who didn't like DAO. I know pre-orders for DA2 were strong due to those who liked DAO pre-ordering it, but in terms of total sales there has to be an element of those who didn't like DAO affecting sales, the question is how large is it?

Not sure I follow on this. Why would anyone who didn't like DAO buy DA2 in the first place. I have seen a lot of people claiming such, "I couldn't get through Ostagar," really perplex me as the demo gave you sod all about the game itself except for combat. It didn't give you story or companions or anything but figthing.

[Daveros]

Morroian wrote...

One thing I do wonder about the sales though is how much of the decline was due to those who didn't like DAO. I know pre-orders for DA2 were strong due to those who liked DAO pre-ordering it, but in terms of total sales there has to be an element of those who didn't like DAO affecting sales, the question is how large is it?

Oh stop, how could sales of a sequel possibly be tainted by those whom bought the original and didn't like it? No, no, no, they hate the sequel only. Especially as the sales figures indicate they haven't even bought it to play it... or something.



I jest, but not entirely. I've always wondered the same thing.

[Daveros]

erynnar wrote...

Not sure I follow on this. Why would anyone who didn't like DAO buy DA2 in the first place.

I think that's the point being raised. It's often suggested that the sales figures for DA2 indicate what people think of the quality of the game; but, what I wonder is how much of the sales are affected by what people thought of the quality of Origins?