483 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

Ryzaki wrote...

Why on earth should either side answer for crimes committed centuries ago by beings that no longer exist?

Just propagating stupidity.

well geth are artifical lifeforms, so isn't it likely the ones that kicked the quarians off the planet would still be around? so wouldnt they remember how the quarians tried to wipe them out once they realized they were selfaware.

and the quarians have done absolutely nothing to earn back the geth's trust

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Why on earth should either side answer for crimes committed centuries ago by beings that no longer exist?

Just propagating stupidity.

A common mistake.
Yes the quarians who were involved in the first contact war are dead.
The geth however are not.

Geth do not have lives, generations etc in the same ways as organics.
It's all the one entity. Meaning the geth who commit genocide 300 years ago are the same geth of today - just with new platforms and more memories.

I'm thinking people not knowing this is a reason for the overwhelming amount of geth sympathy.

Obviously the geth are all one entity that's totally why 5% of them ditched and they couldn't reach a consensu about the heretic base. <_<

[l DryIce l]

Clonedzero wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Why on earth should either side answer for crimes committed centuries ago by beings that no longer exist?

Just propagating stupidity.

well geth are artifical lifeforms, so isn't it likely the ones that kicked the quarians off the planet would still be around? so wouldnt they remember how the quarians tried to wipe them out once they realized they were selfaware.

and the quarians have done absolutely nothing to earn back the geth's trust

True, but neither side has really done anything to earn trust. It's not something that's likely to happen in the length of one game, but whatever happened in the past still doesn't change the situation they're in now. The Geth have already said they're open to peace. It's completely up to the Quarians now. 

[Sepewrath]

ThePwener wrote...
Funny, because according to the ME2 manual, Heat Sinks were made after the Alliance studied Geth weaponry after the Battle of the Citadel and found they're weapons used them, so to match Geth weaponry and increase combat effectiveness, they copied them.

And ME1 says that the only thing Humanity brought new to warfare was Fighter carriers. Wow, how incredibly devastating.

Yeah I know, it ties into that part that you conveniently missed, where I said gaps in technology would be quickly closed.That's only one part of warfare, the technological front, tactics is another part and Geth have shown to have no tactical skill outside of just throwing waves of machines at you. Humans would do things like sabotage, information warfare and eventually attacks on the Geth network itself. What would the Geth do in response? Sabotage, they sent Legion and he ended up with a gaping hole in his chest. I don't really see them sneaking behind enemy lines. There is no human network to attack, the Geth could only win with overwhelming force that they don't have.

[xXljoshlXx]

Sepewrath wrote...

Yeah I know, it ties into that part that you conveniently missed, where I said gaps in technology would be quickly closed.That's only one part of warfare, the technological front, tactics is another part and Geth have shown to have no tactical skill outside of just throwing waves of machines at you. Humans would do things like sabotage, information warfare and eventually attacks on the Geth network itself. What would the Geth do in response? Sabotage, they sent Legion and he ended up with a gaping hole in his chest. I don't really see them sneaking behind enemy lines. There is no human network to attack, the Geth could only win with overwhelming force that they don't have.

You do know that geth specialize in ambushing (scroll towards military section). The geth already moniter extranet and comminucations. They used the MSVCornucopia as a moving trap. So the part about about geths shown to have no tactical skill is pretty much wrong.

Modifié par xXljoshlXx, 04 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[Sepewrath]

Yeah you know what else specialized in ambushes? Dogs, several species of insects, bottom feeding fish, its useful, but not exactly the be all end of battle strategies. Humans use ambushes too. Yeah there is an advantage to being a machine from a physical standpoint, but its also greatly limiting from an imagination standpoint, I doubt they could think outside the box so to say. So they would become predictable and if you do that, like I said, you can only win with overwhelming force.

[l DryIce l]

Sepewrath wrote...

Yeah you know what else specialized in ambushes? Dogs, several species of insects, bottom feeding fish, its useful, but not exactly the be all end of battle strategies. Humans use ambushes too. Yeah there is an advantage to being a machine from a physical standpoint, but its also greatly limiting from an imagination standpoint, I doubt they could think outside the box so to say. So they would become predictable and if you do that, like I said, you can only win with overwhelming force.

I'm not sure I follow. They specialize in ambushing, yet...you say they would become predictable? Their tactic is to catch the enemy by surprise. How can that tactic become predictable? 

[xXljoshlXx]

Sepewrath wrote...

Yeah you know what else specialized in ambushes? Dogs, several species of insects, bottom feeding fish, its useful, but not exactly the be all end of battle strategies. Humans use ambushes too. Yeah there is an advantage to being a machine from a physical standpoint, but its also greatly limiting from an imagination standpoint, I doubt they could think outside the box so to say. So they would become predictable and if you do that, like I said, you can only win with overwhelming force.

Never said it was but i was proving you wrong that they have no tactical skills.

Except they devloped their own type of weapons instead which was greatly different from the ones had originally not just improved but different

 Predictable or not they have already beaten another race without help to think they can't do again is ignorant

[Sepewrath]

Its ignorant to not look at reality, just because you beat one person, doesn't mean you have a chance against anyone someone puts in front of you. That's like saying you won an amateur boxing match, so they put you in the ring in with Mike Tyson in his prime and your suppose to have a chance because of that other win? It doesn't work that way. Unless you can actually match what he was bringing to the table in this particular fight, you would get destroyed. And the Geth haven't shown to have the ability to match what the other species bring to the table.

@l DryIce l

A right hook in a boxing match is suppose to be a surprise too, but you don't always hit, especially when you figure its coming. Just because something is suppose to be a surprise, doesn't mean the opponent wont figure out what your doing. Especially if that is your go to tactic. Ambushes don't work by just randomly attacking people, there is a system to it. Lets say for an example you march an army through a canyon with high cliffs on both sides, a perfect ambush site for your enemy, its a lot better than trying to ambush you in an open field. So knowing that you like to ambush me, I would lure you into that obvious ambush site and then ambush you. Just because you think its a surprise, doesn't mean it is.

Modifié par Sepewrath, 04 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[xXljoshlXx]

Sepewrath wrote...

Its ignorant to not look at reality, just because you beat one person, doesn't mean you have a chance against anyone someone puts in front of you. That's like saying you won an amateur boxing match, so they put you in the ring in with Mike Tyson in his prime and your suppose to have a chance because of that other win? It doesn't work that way. Unless you can actually match what he was bringing to the table in this particular fight, you would get destroyed. And the Geth haven't shown to have the ability to match what the other species bring to the table.

@l DryIce l

A right hook in a boxing match is suppose to be a surprise too, but you don't always hit, especially when you figure its coming. Just because something is suppose to be a surprise, doesn't mean the opponent wont figure out what your doing. Especially if that is your go to tactic. Ambushes don't work by just randomly attacking people, there is a system to it. Lets say for an example you march an army through a canyon with high cliffs on both sides, a perfect ambush site for your enemy, its a lot better than trying to ambush you in an open field. So knowing that you like to ambush me, I would lure you into that obvious ambush site and then ambush you. Just because you think its a surprise, doesn't mean it is.

Actually the Geth have shown the ability to match the other species and actually passing  seeing how the other races  based their tech off of some of theirs.

But you cannot predict 100% of the time what  and what not will be a ambush without other intelligeince so your only option is to guess

[Skirata129]

there's obvious choke points and other places to set up an ambush, where you have natural cover, concealment, height, ect. the problem in those areas is that your enemy will be expecting it. the best kinds of ambushes are those that take place in an "open field", when your adversary has let their guard down. Suprise is the best advantage, but geth can't take advantage of that very easily.

[l DryIce l]

Sepewrath wrote...

Its ignorant to not look at reality, just because you beat one person, doesn't mean you have a chance against anyone someone puts in front of you. That's like saying you won an amateur boxing match, so they put you in the ring in with Mike Tyson in his prime and your suppose to have a chance because of that other win? It doesn't work that way. Unless you can actually match what he was bringing to the table in this particular fight, you would get destroyed. And the Geth haven't shown to have the ability to match what the other species bring to the table.

@l DryIce l

A right hook in a boxing match is suppose to be a surprise too, but you don't always hit, especially when you figure its coming. Just because something is suppose to be a surprise, doesn't mean the opponent wont figure out what your doing. Especially if that is your go to tactic. Ambushes don't work by just randomly attacking people, there is a system to it. Lets say for an example you march an army through a canyon with high cliffs on both sides, a perfect ambush site for your enemy, its a lot better than trying to ambush you in an open field. So knowing that you like to ambush me, I would lure you into that obvious ambush site and then ambush you. Just because you think its a surprise, doesn't mean it is.

From what we've seen in Mass Effect, their ambush tactic relies not so much on location, but timing. They seem to attack their enemies when they least expect it, not where. It's not a tactic that you can consistently predict. 

Examples: 
Eden Prime, Feros, Haestrom. 
Their enemies weren't ready for them in any of these cases. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 04 août 2011 - 04:23 .

[S.A.K]

I made this thread about rewriting the geth. If you guys got any ideas, help us reach consensus.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

On the topic of the Geth fighting another specie or even the entire Citadel species I believe they'd do alot better than most people are giving them credit for. The Heritics that were 5% of the core Geth not just in numbers and therefore military might but also intelligence was able to fly right in front of the strongest dreadnaught in the galaxy along with the rest of the guarding fleet of the Citadel and decimated them in about three minutes. Think about that they were able to take down probably one of the strongest single fleets in the entire galaxy fighting on their enemy's turf and did so with quickly.

The Geth are also known as having the best shield technology in the galaxy to the level of being Reaper advanced. (Cerberus still doesn't know how to copy the sheild tech and they've had two years to go over it they've only parcially copied it) That along with the 95% of their numbers and intel increase you'd be dealing with an enemy that I believe is the strongest single specie in the game.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

So I suppose you elimated to rachni because they were simply a hive organism with one queen in control of an army of drones.  Something doesn't have to be human like to be seen as "Special."  I feel that bioware dropped the ball here by making aliens simple reskins of humanity.  Soverign looked down upon flesh and blood species just as you are looking down on AI.

I don't eliminate them as it wasn't really my choice to, as I didn't create them.

Who cares who created what? Why should that matter at all. If I create something, then yes, it's mine. However, if I create something sentient, then the rules change. What you're hinting at is an argument from authority, which is complete bs. 

If it's sentient, but not flesh and blood, in my opinion you can do whatever you want with it.

And I absolutely disagree. I think, as sentient beings, they have a huge amount of potential value being a part of the galactic community. How is peace with the Geth not preferable to war? 

If the Geth are sentient and "like us", then there will obviously be warmongers and anti-organic sympathizers within their society. As the heretic groups show, if a major anti-organic following developed, it's likely it'd lead to war. True, the Geth aren't exactly the best of fighters, but their numerical and technological supremacy make them a real threat. It's likely if they continued to expand unchecked, someone, somewhere in their society would start telling the others that the Geth are superior to organics, and that the Geth can defeat the organics, and the Geth may very well follow. I doubt the Quarians would have any intention of starting a galactic empire and enslaving all organic life, but that's a possible intention of the Geth. If the Quarians went to war with the Geth, I'd definitely fight for the Quarians.

There's a problem with that and its Legion stating that the Getha re open to peace with the Quarians but only if they are sure the Quarians won't attack them. If the Geth are willing to forgive the people that tried to kill them and let them live in their space than I don't see them having any problem with any other specie as long as they don't attack the Geth.

They want to be left alone and they want to leave everyone else alone. I don't see any anit-organic faction coming up because they've already reached concensus about peace being an option with the one specie that have done them the most harm.

Assuming Legion isn't lying, which is quite possible.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

On the topic of the Geth fighting another specie or even the entire Citadel species I believe they'd do alot better than most people are giving them credit for. The Heritics that were 5% of the core Geth not just in numbers and therefore military might but also intelligence was able to fly right in front of the strongest dreadnaught in the galaxy along with the rest of the guarding fleet of the Citadel and decimated them in about three minutes. Think about that they were able to take down probably one of the strongest single fleets in the entire galaxy fighting on their enemy's turf and did so with quickly.

The Geth are also known as having the best shield technology in the galaxy to the level of being Reaper advanced. (Cerberus still doesn't know how to copy the sheild tech and they've had two years to go over it they've only parcially copied it) That along with the 95% of their numbers and intel increase you'd be dealing with an enemy that I believe is the strongest single specie in the game.

The Geth fleet didn't "decimate" the Alliance fleet, they lost quite a few more ships, and since the majority of the Alliance fleet was firing on Sovereign, Geth ships weren't the primary target. The Geth may have shields and numbers, but you have to remember the horrid quality of their soldiers. They have no sense of self-preservation and can blindly follow their goals, even against suicidal odds. Their training seems non-existent and their troops are meant to overwhelm, not overpower, the enemy. They do have ambush capabilities that are quite effective, but in terms of open, full-scale battles, they'd probably do horribly. And considering Shepard and their squad are attacked time and again by huge forces of heretics and win, another example of the horrendous quality of individual Geth troopers, I can imagine the same would happen if the full Geth force attacked, and certainly my Shepard would fight for the Quarians. Bye bye Geth.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 04 août 2011 - 03:54 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Legon serves the exact same role that Tali did in ME1 and that is a walking Codex of information. The fact the Codex updates after he explans more and more about the Geth tells you that his role is to tell you want the deal is with the Geth.

First it was the Citadel fleet which had the support of the greatest dreadnaught in the galaxy. Second Sovy was only a target for about 10 secods because he went straight for the Citadel everything else was all Heritics. Thirdly as I said before the major plus on the side of the true Geth is that they are massively more intelligent than the Heritics were because they have more Geth to share data and the more Geth you have the smarter they are. The Heritics had poor soilders becuse they had 5% of the intellect that they use to have. The Core Geth will be 20 times smarter and 20 times stronger, not to mention that Dyson sphere they are building that might just be the Deus ex Machina to defeat the Reapers. If push comes to shuve I'll support the Geth. Bye bye Quarians.

[l DryIce l]

Quarians vs. Reapers: Okay
Geth vs. Reapers: Okay

Quarians and Geth vs. Reapers: Win.

Don't forget about the big picture, guys. This conflict is pretty small in comparison with the Reaper threat.

[AngelicMachinery]

l DryIce l wrote...

Quarians vs. Reapers: Okay
Geth vs. Reapers: Okay

Quarians and Geth vs. Reapers: Win.

Don't forget about the big picture, guys. This conflict is pretty small in comparison with the Reaper threat.

I'm really not sure what the quarians can offer the war effort myself,  I may be wrong but there ships aren't particularly combat viable are they?  

[DarkDragon777]

Yeah, the Geth have a much more valuable military. Space those Quarians and side with the Geth.

[Rogue Unit]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Quarians vs. Reapers: Okay
Geth vs. Reapers: Okay

Quarians and Geth vs. Reapers: Win.

Don't forget about the big picture, guys. This conflict is pretty small in comparison with the Reaper threat.

I'm really not sure what the quarians can offer the war effort myself,  I may be wrong but there ships aren't particularly combat viable are they?  

I remember Reegar saying that quarians fight best from orbit, so that would imply that their ships are combat ready. Or at least some of them are.

Either way, if it comes down to the Geth or Quarians, I'm siding with the Geth everytime. Hopefully it won't have to work out this way, though.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 04 août 2011 - 05:22 .

[Skirata129]

the big picture? I think that if bioware wanted it to happen, every other race and individual but shepard and his crew could die and the reapers would still be miraculously defeated.

[AngelicMachinery]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Yeah, the Geth have a much more valuable military. Space those Quarians and side with the Geth.

I'm not suggesting this,  I'm all for peaceful end to the Geth/Quarian conflict.  I just didn't think the Flotilla overed much military might.    I do prefer the Geth more than the Quarians myself,  but,  that doesn't mean my cannon Shepard will ignore red text options for peace.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 04 août 2011 - 05:25 .

[Skirata129]

you guys do realize that all the quarians want is peace? peace...
Piece.

Modifié par Skirata129, 04 août 2011 - 05:55 .

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

First it was the Citadel fleet which had the support of the greatest dreadnaught in the galaxy. Second Sovy was only a target for about 10 secods because he went straight for the Citadel everything else was all Heritics. Thirdly as I said before the major plus on the side of the true Geth is that they are massively more intelligent than the Heritics were because they have more Geth to share data and the more Geth you have the smarter they are. The Heritics had poor soilders becuse they had 5% of the intellect that they use to have. The Core Geth will be 20 times smarter and 20 times stronger, not to mention that Dyson sphere they are building that might just be the Deus ex Machina to defeat the Reapers. If push comes to shuve I'll support the Geth. Bye bye Quarians.

The Alliance fleet was heavily outnumbered, and considering Sovereign already took out several of their larger ships, the Geth swarmed them. That's an example of Geth tactics. True, the more Geth you have in one area, the smarter they are, but organics can learn, adapt, etc., things Geth aren't capable of doing. Geth are self-aware, but higher, more advanced thinking is impossible for them. 100 organics are far more intelligent and self-aware than 100 Geth. And also, the entire Geth army would be "20 times better", but to get that same bonus, you'd have to have every single Geth in one place. Since there's millions of them, I doubt they would be able to all be in one place, so any advantage is nullified.

AngelicMachinery wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Quarians vs. Reapers: Okay
Geth vs. Reapers: Okay

Quarians and Geth vs. Reapers: Win.

Don't forget about the big picture, guys. This conflict is pretty small in comparison with the Reaper threat.

I'm really not sure what the quarians can offer the war effort myself, I may be wrong but there ships aren't particularly combat viable are they?

I think the Quarians' fleet strength comes from the experience and skill of their pilots and crew, not quality of ships.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 04 août 2011 - 12:37 .

[l DryIce l]

Skirata129 wrote...

the big picture? I think that if bioware wanted it to happen, every other race and individual but shepard and his crew could die and the reapers would still be miraculously defeated.

lolwut?