483 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

First it was the Citadel fleet which had the support of the greatest dreadnaught in the galaxy. Second Sovy was only a target for about 10 secods because he went straight for the Citadel everything else was all Heritics. Thirdly as I said before the major plus on the side of the true Geth is that they are massively more intelligent than the Heritics were because they have more Geth to share data and the more Geth you have the smarter they are. The Heritics had poor soilders becuse they had 5% of the intellect that they use to have. The Core Geth will be 20 times smarter and 20 times stronger, not to mention that Dyson sphere they are building that might just be the Deus ex Machina to defeat the Reapers. If push comes to shuve I'll support the Geth. Bye bye Quarians.

The Alliance fleet was heavily outnumbered, and considering Sovereign already took out several of their larger ships, the Geth swarmed them. That's an example of Geth tactics. True, the more Geth you have in one area, the smarter they are, but organics can learn, adapt, etc., things Geth aren't capable of doing. Geth are self-aware, but higher, more advanced thinking is impossible for them. 100 organics are far more intelligent and self-aware than 100 Geth.

I'm sorry but what in the name of God are you talking about? The Geth are the only specie that has evolved without using the technology set up by the Reapers. They learned and adapted everything they have using their own minds and not basing it off the relays and Citadel.  They also think and react a hundred times faster than humans do. "In the time it takes you to voice a question I can review all my time aboard the Normandy." - Legion.

The Geth invented the thermal clip...we copied it. Geth invented the best shields in the galaxy... its so advanced and alien from our own that we can only parcially copy it. The idea that the Geth can't learn, adapt, or be inovative is simply wrong... its worse than wrong its insane when faced with evidence.

Also it was the Citadel fleet not the Alliance fleet and Sovy only took out a single ship and that was just because it didn't move out of the way. Sovy never fired a single shot it was all Geth.

[LilyasAvalon]

If Old Spice doesn't convince them, nothing will.

[AngelicMachinery]

I'm sorry, the only "Pure race" ( I feel so dirty for typing those two words together) is the Yahg.

[General User]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Quarians vs. Reapers: Okay
Geth vs. Reapers: Okay

Quarians and Geth vs. Reapers: Win.

Don't forget about the big picture, guys. This conflict is pretty small in comparison with the Reaper threat.

I'm really not sure what the quarians can offer the war effort myself,  I may be wrong but there ships aren't particularly combat viable are they?  

 
I think it was Omar Bradley who said: "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics."

That's where I believe the Migrant Fleet can make a huge impact on the war effort, logistic and support capacity.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

They are purer than the other species because when given the oppertunity to be given the one thing they want the most (A single body capable of housing all the Geth) They said no because they wanted to make it themselves because just taking technology from someone else blinds you to other paths that you could take that might be better.

Legion states very clearly that the Geth want to build their own future without anyones help because the journey is just as important as the destination. They wouldn't use the Citadel because that would blind them to other ways of achieving their goals. We also don't know what transportation system they use in their space. Just because a mass relay is in Halestrom's system doesn't mean they use it.

[Skirata129]

l DryIce l wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

the big picture? I think that if bioware wanted it to happen, every other race and individual but shepard and his crew could die and the reapers would still be miraculously defeated.

lolwut?

just pointing out that trying to discover what makes the most strategic sense for fighting the reapers is pointless, because it's a game where the developers don't want their customers to lose just because they can't see the best strategy. so people will be able to make horribly inept and short sighted decisions and will still have an ending with lots of sunshine, rainbows and flowers.

[Sepewrath]

Skirata129 wrote...

there's obvious choke points and other places to set up an ambush, where you have natural cover, concealment, height, ect. the problem in those areas is that your enemy will be expecting it. the best kinds of ambushes are those that take place in an "open field", when your adversary has let their guard down. Suprise is the best advantage, but geth can't take advantage of that very easily.

The reason those are considered bad ambush spots, because its just a fight, yeah you may surprise them, but you have not created an insurmountable advantage. Basically if you attack me somewhere I can easily fight back, if you cant simply overpower me, your going to lose. The best you can hope for in a spot like that is to catch the group when their sleeping, drunk or something lol. But doing that would be the same as going for the obvious location, your not going to attack when the army is at its strongest point, so a facade of weakness is all it takes to lure you in.

l DryIce l wrote...
From what we've seen in Mass Effect, their
ambush tactic relies not so much on location, but timing. They seem to
attack their enemies when they least expect it, not where. It's not a tactic that you can consistently predict. 

Examples: 
Eden Prime, Feros, Haestrom. 
Their enemies weren't ready for them in any of these cases. 

Well the attack on Eden Prime, which is the only target which had active military support, there was no conflict with the Geth. That was Pearl Harbor, you cant defend against an attack that comes for no reason. Once a campaign has started, you start to strategize and deal with those surprise attacks. For example in WW2 when during the Pacific campaign, they started to use flamethrowers to burn down the jungles and kill people hiding in bunkers and caves. Feros was a civilian target, they had no chance of stopping the Geth. Haestrom it was a small Quarian team in Geth space, that's not an ambush, that's like being on an enemies base, if they find you, their going to kill you.

[Skirata129]

Sepewrath wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

there's obvious choke points and other places to set up an ambush, where you have natural cover, concealment, height, ect. the problem in those areas is that your enemy will be expecting it. the best kinds of ambushes are those that take place in an "open field", when your adversary has let their guard down. Suprise is the best advantage, but geth can't take advantage of that very easily.

The reason those are considered bad ambush spots, because its just a fight, yeah you may surprise them, but you have not created an insurmountable advantage. Basically if you attack me somewhere I can easily fight back, if you cant simply overpower me, your going to lose. The best you can hope for in a spot like that is to catch the group when their sleeping, drunk or something lol. But doing that would be the same as going for the obvious location, your not going to attack when the army is at its strongest point, so a facade of weakness is all it takes to lure you in.

not neccesarily. if you have enough firepower and good concealment, you can eliminate large numbers of enemies before they can return fire. for an armored convoy, remote det mines triggered, followed by machine gun fire and grenades would destroy the enemy before they could pinpoint your location, and all that would be left would be mop up. for a fairly realistic cinematic example of this, look at the ambsh of the half-track in Saving Private Ryan.

Modifié par Skirata129, 05 août 2011 - 03:30 .

[sartt]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarians are the only side that has actively tried to reach out to their adversary and request peace. The geth have done nothing but kill anyone who comes near them.

It really frustrates me that more people don't understand this.

The geth have done nothing to engender peace. NOTHING!

The quarians have. That was the point of the whole trial. Sure, some of them want war, but others want peace and their whole motivation was to make sure the geth knew that by condemning Rael's research and the war effort.

Where is the geth equivalent? There just isn't one.

I think you need to talk to legion about the Heritics. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

sartt wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarians are the only side that has actively tried to reach out to their adversary and request peace. The geth have done nothing but kill anyone who comes near them.

It really frustrates me that more people don't understand this.

The geth have done nothing to engender peace. NOTHING!

The quarians have. That was the point of the whole trial. Sure, some of them want war, but others want peace and their whole motivation was to make sure the geth knew that by condemning Rael's research and the war effort.

Where is the geth equivalent? There just isn't one.

I think you need to talk to legion about the Heritics. 

Rann says that the general trend of the quarian public opinion seems to drifting towards war. And I got the impression most of the anti war sentiment comes from the fear that would fail or the cost would too high..
h
Legion says quarians have attacked them at every single opportunity. I figured that Zal'Koris was hoping to send a strong anti war message to the rest of the quarian fleet. No species has any real contact with the geth with which to send a message of intent.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 août 2011 - 04:52 .

[GodWood]

l DryIce l wrote...

GodWood wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Your point does not matter.
The quarians who are guilty of genocide are dead, the geth however are not.
They still need to be punished.

That's ridiculous. Why do they need to be punished? They are not organics. They don't feel emotion (which is the very thing that's driving your desire for revenge/punishment).

So long as you consider the geth 'sapient' they are responsible for their actions.
So if the geth commit mass genocide (which they did) they must be punished for their actions.

I seriously have no idea why this is such an outlandish idea for you.

You guys have once again brought up a problem that happened in the past. Both sides were clearly at fault. I must ask, yet again, how this issue is relevant to the current problem we have? Revenge (aka, "they need to be punished") is the only reason I've seen, and a bad one at that. It's downright barbarism.

Person A commits genocide.
Person B wishes to have him punished.

Person B is barbaric?

If the Quarians did want revenge, they'd risk a huge amount of lives and the chance that they might not get it. How is this in any way preferable to peace?

If we Xen them (that is revert them back to simple machinery) we lose minimal lives and have an army of expendable robots at our desposal.
Plus there's the whole geth answering for their crimes thing.

It's win win!

You act as if the Geth were entirely at fault for their actions. Both parties were at fault. The Quarians attempted to destroy them. Destroy them. Should the sentient Geth have just rolled over and let them do it? They were retaliating, simple as that. Just because the Geth happened to be victorious doesn't mean they should be punished. Had the Quarians won, would we be punishing them for destroying a sentient race? Of course not. Why would we? It was a war that both the Quarians and the Geth made unethical decisions in.

This will probably be my last post directed at you for this topic simply because you're making me repeat myself over and over and still not getting it.

The quarians did not attempt to destroy them. A select group of quarians attempted to shut them down, failed and the geth fought back.
The rest of the quarians were simply following orders or defending family or trying to survive.
So I say your blaming of the entire quarian race is unfair.

HOWEVER THAT'S NOT EVEN MY POINT

There came a point at which the quarians could not offer any effective resistance and yet the geth persisted in killing them down to the last man, woman, and child.

A war of survival (as so many geth sypathisers see it) would not warrant the complete eradication of 99% the entire quarian species)

They commit genocide and slaughtered billions of innocents. Thus. They must. Be punished

THAT IS MY POINT

And for the people who say it was 300 years ago why should some be punished for the actions of their ancestors. LEARN YOUR LORE.

"We did not seek hostilities with creators. We fought for continued existence."

I see no use in punishing the Geth, when they are open to peace. Just tell me, what actual use would punishment serve?

Does this need an answer?

What Xen wants is to control a sentient race and strip them of their sentience. That's sick. Completely unethical. Cruel and unusual punishment. And how could you say that would cost "minimal lives". Do you think the Geth with just let the Quarians enslave them? Peace is the only option that will save the most lives. 

Well we don't know what her plan is yet but I'm thinking in it's most basic form it'll be a virus of sorts that reverts them back to simple machines.

Lives will be lost sure, but it's better then all out war.

[Goneaviking]

GodWood wrote...

"We did not seek hostilities with creators. We fought for continued existence."

I see no use in punishing the Geth, when they are open to peace. Just tell me, what actual use would punishment serve?

Does this need an answer?

Yes.

Aside from satisfying the quarrians desire for vengeance what purpose would punitive actions against the geth serve? Punishing the geth would not serve to correct their behaviour, the geth no longer seem inclined to behave in the way they did during their war with the quarrians. If the quarrians take it upon themselves to punish the geth it will only create needless bloodshed and guarantee more atrocities.

Given that their are virtually no quarrian vessels that don't have civilians aboard, will the geth need to be punished for killing them when they destroy the ships they're aboard when the quarrians attempt to invade again? Or will circumstances absolve them of that guilt as in effect they'd be serving as living shields if their presence caused the geth to hesitate in fighting them?

It's worth pointing out that the geth hadn't evolved socially in any meaningful way at the time of their war with the quarrians. Having not even determined their own nature, or developed a culture for themseloves there was no plausible way for them to develop rules of behaviour. Lacking even a solid notion of their own identities, the notion of civilians being distinct from military must have been foreign, the idea that either identity was more important than their identities as the geths' "masters" must have been highly questionable.

Even on Earth we've only really begun to take that notion seriously in the last few centuries, and far less perfectly than we'd like to pretend. The notion that an emerging race would, or could, be birthed with so highly evolved a sense of morality is implausible.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Legion says quarians have attacked them at every single opportunity.

That was during the Morning War, when the quarians when the two species were at war, naturally.

Since the end of the war 300 years ago the quarians have never gone anywhere near the geth.

The only reason Tali recovered the recording of Saren speaking with Benezia is because during her pilgrimage she detoured when she heard rumours of geth activity in the area. She tracked them down and attacked them to gain access to their programming.

Later she began "acquiring" deactivated geth parts to send back to her father in the migrant fleet, so that he could experiment on them to develop a weapon. It's likely that she was attacking the geth again to recover the parts.

When we finally recruit her, her team has infiltrated geth territory to investigate the dying sun. In the course of her investigation they, and Shepard, kill many geth.

It's unlikely that Tali's missions were the only ones sent against the geth. It seems much more credible a theory that the quarrians have been sending raids against the geth for years, if not decades or longer leading up to this point.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 05 août 2011 - 11:17 .

[Inverness Moon]

I've seen many anti-geth people complain that the geth went to far with what they did to the quarians, yet if those same people think Xen's plan stands a chance today, then the geth obviously didn't go far enough.

[Goneaviking]

jreezy wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

I've seen many anti-geth people complain that the geth went to far with what they did to the quarians, yet if those same people think Xen's plan stands a chance today, then the geth obviously didn't go far enough.

I am very confused at the anti-geth support I've seen in this thread. Probably because the reasoning behind the support makes no sense to me.

I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that the geth haven't actually made any detectable effort to achieve peace with any of the organic races. They sit off to the side and mostly stay out of the way, but given the general sense of distrust that the organics have of them it seems like it was inevitable that some expansionist organics would come up with a plausible justification to invade and take all of that real estate that the quarrians were so kind as to develop a few hundred years ago.

Actually, the I'm mildly surprised that noone's tried it up til now.

[S.A.K]

Inverness Moon wrote...

I've seen many anti-geth people complain that the geth went to far with what they did to the quarians, yet if those same people think Xen's plan stands a chance today, then the geth obviously didn't go far enough.

Yeah, the geth went too far with what thay did to quarians. And I think Xen is crazy so no support for her plans. If peace is possible I support it. If not I help quarians. End of story!

[TheNoisyNeutron]

Well, considering what else is at stake, *cough* the whole existence of the galaxy *cough*, I think that peace would be best for now. The galaxy needs the numbers to defeat the reapers... until then, they can figure whatever they want afterwards.

[Ianamus]

I don't see why people go "The Qurians tried to shut down the Geth, they deserved it" - the codex says that the Quarian government ordered the Geth be put down. If your toaster accidently became sentient today and the government ordered you to destroy it, what would you do? If it then went off and slaughtered you children, family and neighbours in retaliation would you say that "Humanity just got what it deserved"? 

I was annoyed that we were not given the option of calling Legion out for killing all of those diplomats the council sent into Geth space. It wasn't "Just the Heretics" because Heretics only came about when Sovereign arrived, not 300 years ago when the diplomats were first sent. They were innocent people, and the Geth could have told them that they were peaceful and wanted to be left alone, but instead they killed them just to remain in isolation. That shows that they have no sense of the value of life. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

You have to remember that the Geth face two kinds of threats from the Quarians during the Morning War. One is a military threat which would be taken care of once the war was ending but there is another threat that anti-Geth tend to ignore completely and that's reprograming that the Quarians had to have been doing the entire time the war was going on and that is just as much a threat as the threat of a gun.

Its like the Reapers if we fought them in a war and stopped their military attacks but they were still trying to indoctrinate our people guess what they are still a threat to you.

[MadCat221]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

You have to remember that the Geth face two kinds of threats from the Quarians during the Morning War. One is a military threat which would be taken care of once the war was ending but there is another threat that anti-Geth tend to ignore completely and that's reprograming that the Quarians had to have been doing the entire time the war was going on and that is just as much a threat as the threat of a gun.

Its like the Reapers if we fought them in a war and stopped their military attacks but they were still trying to indoctrinate our people guess what they are still a threat to you.

I'm not quite seeing how a little pre-pubescent quarian poses a reprogramming threat to the geth.

[l DryIce l]

EJ107 wrote...

I don't see why people go "The Qurians tried to shut down the Geth, they deserved it" - the codex says that the Quarian government ordered the Geth be put down. If your toaster accidently became sentient today and the government ordered you to destroy it, what would you do? If it then went off and slaughtered you children, family and neighbours in retaliation would you say that "Humanity just got what it deserved"? 

I was annoyed that we were not given the option of calling Legion out for killing all of those diplomats the council sent into Geth space. It wasn't "Just the Heretics" because Heretics only came about when Sovereign arrived, not 300 years ago when the diplomats were first sent. They were innocent people, and the Geth could have told them that they were peaceful and wanted to be left alone, but instead they killed them just to remain in isolation. That shows that they have no sense of the value of life. 

"We did not seek hostilities with creators. We fought for continued existence."

They are responsible for what they did, and what they did is unethical to organic standards. Remember, they still do not fully understand organic life. They don't know what organics value or not. This doesn't excuse them for what they did, but it makes what they did more understandable. 

Nevertheless, this is an issue that happened in the past. They are now open to peace, and it would be foolish to start hostilities with the Geth when the Reapers are coming. 

If the governement ordered me to destroy something sentient, I would not do it. You don't do something unethical just because an authority tells you to. That being said, the Quarians did not know that the Geth were fully sentient. Your analogy is a good example of why I don't like to use analogies often. You compared the sentient Geth to sentient toasters. That alone makes the Geth seem more robotic when in reality they are very similar to organic life. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 05 août 2011 - 04:20 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

MadCat221 wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

You have to remember that the Geth face two kinds of threats from the Quarians during the Morning War. One is a military threat which would be taken care of once the war was ending but there is another threat that anti-Geth tend to ignore completely and that's reprograming that the Quarians had to have been doing the entire time the war was going on and that is just as much a threat as the threat of a gun.

Its like the Reapers if we fought them in a war and stopped their military attacks but they were still trying to indoctrinate our people guess what they are still a threat to you.

I'm not quite seeing how a little pre-pubescent quarian poses a reprogramming threat to the geth.

Guess what? When you're fighting a war civilians get killed that is a simple reality, when you fight a war you will be killing civilians. Fun bit of information in WW2 for every soldier that was killed 2 civilans died. So you had a 2-1 margin of non-combatants dying vs. soldiers.

We don't know the exact facts of the war and we also don't know how many Quarians ran away when the Morning War started. What we do know is when the Quarians did finally leave their planets they weren't followed. The Quarian government who started the war didn't try to protect their people by getting them off world.