483 réponses à ce sujet

[splash1326]

I suppose I've never completly understood why the Quarians acted as they did when Geth first displayed signs on sentience. Was that not a time when rejoicing was an option ? After all they did create an actual life form, it would seem to me it would be a cause for celebration , almost like childbirth. Instead the Quarians tried to abort their creation and got thier asses handed to them in the process. Geth were not the aggressors in this conflict the Quarians were. I get that they originally wanted their own robots to do all the scut work etc. and the advent of sentience would have essentially turned Quarians into slave owners but they far exceeded themselves, so what if you have to wash your own dishes, you created a life form ! Would it be rational to kill off your own offspring at the first sign on independence ? Geth never said wow I'm self aware so I'm going to kill you , they simply wanted to understand who and what they were.
I think if the Quarians decide to wage war against the Geth they're simply replaying their first attempt which I believe was a mistake and doing it at a time when the entire galaxy is facing a Reaper threat is selfish and irresponsible. They should make peace with the Geth or face extinction. If they do go to war with the Geth I hope there's an option to side with neither, that way at least Geth who've sided with the Reapers will be preoccupied for a time but I don't think the Quarians stand a chance of winning, it's just suicide.

[MadCat221]

They realized that it was an AI. AIs tended to be crapshoots, and thus laws on the Citadel level were enacted against creating them in anything other than a research environment (and even then under strict guidelines). They had the threat of them going bad should they continue to evolve, and also the threat of censure from the Citadel if they let them continue to exist.

Modifié par MadCat221, 05 août 2011 - 07:38 .

[Omega Torsk]

I suppose I've never completly understood why the Quarians acted as they did when Geth first displayed signs on sentience. Was that not a time when rejoicing was an option ? After all they did create an actual life
form, it would seem to me it would be a cause for celebration , almost like childbirth. Instead the Quarians tried to abort their creation and got thier asses handed to them in the process.

Blind fear. That's what caused the Quarians to react in the way they did. They unintentionally created artificial intelligence and, in doing so, it threatened their superiority and safety (like the above poster mentioned, AI is a crapshoot). Geth were property; they were treated with as much sympathy as we treat our PCs because they weren't alive. They were tools. When one began asking questions only a sapient creature would ask, it caused a mass panic. Obviously, the Geth had evolved to bypass any safety protocols the Quarians installed (I had always wondered why the Quarians didn't have an "easy" button just in case anything like this ever happened), so the only solution was to destroy them. The Quarians didn't want to negotiate; they knew next to nothing about what they had created and they saw the Geth as a dangerous mistake (remember, AI research was illegal long before the Morning War). So, they wanted to erase that mistake before it became a problem. Unfortunately for them, it backfired.

If what I've been reading on here is true, if all actively hostile Geth are heretics, then I would be open to the idea of peace between the Geth and the Quarians. However, war between the two is folly. The Quarians simply don't have the numbers to go to war with them; they would be obliterated. The heretics (basically, all of the Geth we've seen other than Legion) only form a small fraction of the total Geth population. I think that the Quarians exercising the possibility of war with the Geth is stupid, reckless, and selfish. Of course, the Geth aren't an entirely innocent party here. They're reclusive, which isn't a very smart thing to be. If they would keep in communication with their creators, then they would remove doubts and build bridges. Instead, they continue to hide behind the Veil, which looks suspicious to the rest of the galaxy. Sure, Legion has revealed himself (stating Geth intentions), but he is just one platform. Anyway, like I mentioned, the game hasn't even been released yet; Bioware has yet to surprise us!

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 05 août 2011 - 07:45 .

[General User]

An interesting question, that I'm wondering if anyone knows the answer to, is: did the geth ever offer terms to the quarians during the Morning War? And, if so, what were they?

Because if the geth offered terms that were anything approaching reasonable, and the quarians continuously refused them, it would go a long way to explaining and even justifying the geth's decision to exterminate the quarian populations on the worlds they conquered in the war.

[StellarMagic]

I don't think the geth had reached the necessary complexity of intelligence to offer terms, they were attacked they fought back and that was all they understood.

It's interesting because I've been thinking about the AI dilemma a bit in regards to the geth. From what Tali says and the information provided by the codex I don't think the Quarians even thought it was possible for the geth to become a true AI.

Creative thought and problem solving emerge from an inherently unstable network, that's why quantum blue boxes are used for AIs, quantum computing is inherently unstable. The geth do not use that technology but are instead a network of binary computing processes. The unstable network is created by the immense number of processes interacting... something that no one even thought was possible until the Geth gained sapience.

[General User]

I think you're right. And what's more, I'm not sure they have the, to borrow the term, necessary complexity of intelligence NOW!

The geth have a decidedly child-like nature. To my way of thinking, given how well-armed the geth are, that makes them extraordinarily dangerous.

[splash1326]

MadCat221 wrote...

They realized that it was an AI. AIs tended to be crapshoots, and thus laws on the Citadel level were enacted against creating them in anything other than a research environment (and even then under strict guidelines). They had the threat of them going bad should they continue to evolve, and also the threat of censure from the Citadel if they let them continue to exist.

Somehow I have trouble believing that Quarians have a great regard for anything that happens on the Citadel. Quarians seem very much an ethnocentric group who make their own rules.
If you create something you always run a risk of it not turning out as you expected, it is however still your responsibility. Quarians could have just as easily chosen to develop and nurture their creation but they opted to try to destroy it. 
Somewhere in their attempt to build a better toaster they crossed the line. I don't think a Tech focused race would have done so unintentionally but perhaps they did however they still continue to research AI suggesting that Quarian regard for Council rules is limited 

[Skirata129]

General User wrote...

The geth have a decidedly child-like nature. To my way of thinking, given how well-armed the geth are, that makes them extraordinarily dangerous.

like the krogan?

[General User]

Skirata129 wrote...

General User wrote...

The geth have a decidedly child-like nature. To my way of thinking, given how well-armed the geth are, that makes them extraordinarily dangerous.

like the krogan?

No, not like the krogan. I never found the krogan to be particularly child-like. Aggressive and even brutal, but also decidedly pragmatic. You always know what you're going to get with a krogan. The threat the geth represent is in their unpredictability. 

Nor are the krogan well-armed in any collective sense. They have no fleet, no real military power off Tuchanka. Actually... given how Council Forces control the orbitals above the planet, the krogan arguably have no real power on Tuchanka either.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

General User wrote...

I think you're right. And what's more, I'm not sure they have the, to borrow the term, necessary complexity of intelligence NOW!

The geth have a decidedly child-like nature. To my way of thinking, given how well-armed the geth are, that makes them extraordinarily dangerous.

Yep because they're the only sentience specie in the galaxy right? Wait no there are a few others.

1)Humans. Have spent thousands of years comitting genocide and wars... yep humans aren't dangerous.
2) Turian - A military specie whoose doctrine is to utterly destroy their enemy and plow them into the ground until they can never rise up again (Which is exactly what the Geth did funny how no one calls the Turians dangerous monster)
3) Krogan an overly agressive specie that cares more about fighting and killling than saving their own specie from slow death.
Quarians made a sentient specie and their reaction was to completely genocide them.

It seems as if there are more specie you could say are dangerous than you can say is aren't dangerous. You condemn the Geth while at the same time disregard the fact that every sentient specie is capable of being dangerous.

However the Geth are the least dangerous of the sentient beings and I'm going to prove it right now. The Core Geth have gone over 300 years without ever hurting anyone... 300 years they've never killed anyone. Do you think any other sentient specie could ever say that? No, because every other sentient specie is inherently more violent than the Geth are. The worst thing people can say about them after winning the war is they're isolationists... WOW! A specie that doesn't interfere in another's buisness what a horrible thing!

The Geth believe that every specie has the right to make up their own minds and make their own path... has there ever been a group in human history that has ever believed that and more importantly followed through? No you can not.

[General User]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Yep because they're the only sentience specie in the galaxy right? Wait no there are a few others.

1)Humans. Have spent thousands of years comitting genocide and wars... yep humans aren't dangerous.
2) Turian - A military specie whoose doctrine is to utterly destroy their enemy and plow them into the ground until they can never rise up again (Which is exactly what the Geth did funny how no one calls the Turians dangerous monster)
3) Krogan an overly agressive specie that cares more about fighting and killling than saving their own specie from slow death.
Quarians made a sentient specie and their reaction was to completely genocide them.

Well… you're sort of right. The truth is every species or nation (the lines between the two get a little blurry in Mass Effect) DOES represent a threat to others, at least to a certain extent. But there is always something else to them that mitages or supercedes the threat they pose to others.  To take the examples you cite.

1) Humans - Many aliens (even some on the Normandy's crew) have noted that humanity is frighteningly capable in military matters. But humanity has also proved to be willing to exercise their military might within the framework of the existing galactic power structure, and for the benefit of the galaxy as a whole.

2) Turians - It is as you say, the purpose of the turian military doctrine is crush an enemy so they can never pose a threat again, but it is not to exterminate them. I don't think we can say the same thing of the geth with any sort of certitude. Besides, as with their human allies, the turians are willing to engage productively with the galactic community, whereas the geth did just the opposite following the Morning War. 

3) Krogan - The Krogan Clans are no longer a threat to galactic security.

4) Quarians - The Migrant Fleet IS a potential threat to the galaxy, albeit a somewhat limited one, in much the same way any faction is a potential threat.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
It seems as if there are more specie you could say are dangerous than you can say is aren't dangerous. You condemn the Geth while at the same time disregard the fact that every sentient specie is capable of being dangerous.

I neither condemned nor disregarded anything. I just want to be realistic here. If we don't recognize the geth for what they are, and treat them accordingly, the prospects for a lasting peace go from slim to nothing.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
However the Geth are the least dangerous of the sentient beings and I'm going to prove it right now. The Core Geth have gone over 300 years without ever hurting anyone... 300 years they've never killed anyone.

The geth have violently rebuffed numerous communications attempts. There was also the minor incident where X percent of their number followed a Reaper on a pan-galactic jihad.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Do you think any other sentient specie could ever say that?

No, and I wouldn't believe them if they did.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
No, because every other sentient specie is inherently more violent than the Geth are. The worst thing people can say about them after winning the war is they're isolationists... WOW! A specie that doesn't interfere in another's buisness what a horrible thing!

It's not a matter of any particular species being inherently more or less violent, but of having some idea what will move a particular species to violence. 

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
The Geth believe that every specie has the right to make up their own minds and make their own path... has there ever been a group in human history that has ever believed that and more importantly followed through? No you can not.

The Americans have made a good show of it.  As have the Brits and the Canadians and the Aussies.  And... I suppose... if I had to admit, under duress mind you, the French too.

Since elaborating would require venturing into real world politics, please PM me if you wish to continue on this point. 

Modifié par General User, 05 août 2011 - 09:43 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The Geth did exactly what the Turians did to the Krogan. They beat them until they couldn't hurt them anymore. We do have evidence that the Geth know when to stop, we know this because once the Quarians left they never followed. If they really wanted to destroy the Quarians it would have been a simple matter especially after the majority had been betten on their worlds... in fact it would still be a simple matter for the Geth to destroy the Flotilla any time they want all they'd have to do is take out the three food ships and the Quarian race is dead. In 300 years they never attacked the Quarians after they left that shows that the Geth adhered to the Turian doctrine

Keeping peace with the Geth is rather simple its called not trying to mess with them. Legion says that the Geth are willing to have long term peace with the Quarians a race that tried to destroy them if they are willing to do that than they'd be more than willing to have peace with everyone else as long as no one goes all "Ah its a machine!!! Kill it with fire!!!!"

I said Core Geth so the heritics joining the reapers doesn't matter because I'm talking about the Core Geth here. Also those people turned into husks were killed by the heritics because husk tech is Reaper tech and the Core Geth don't use reaper tech. 1 + 1 =2.

We know that for 300 years the Geth have been more than happy to have no hostilities with anyone. Once the war is over as long as no one tries to attack them I see no reason to suspect they'd suddenly go out lookiing for trouble. "Every sentient has the right to self determinate." As long as no one tries to harm the Geth the Geth won't harm them.

I agree we shouldn't continue into real world politics.

[General User]

 

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
The Geth did exactly what the Turians did to the Krogan. They beat them until they couldn't hurt them anymore. We do have evidence that the Geth know when to stop, we know this because once the Quarians left they never followed. If they really wanted to destroy the Quarians it would have been a simple matter especially after the majority had been betten on their worlds... in fact it would still be a simple matter for the Geth to destroy the Flotilla any time they want all they'd have to do is take out the three food ships and the Quarian race is dead.

Unless the geth were able to prevent a given ship from jumping into FTL it is next to impossible for them, or anyone else, to destroy the Migrant Fleet. The only alternative way for the geth to destroy the Flotilla would be to seize key relay junctions and planets with needed resources, and there is a decided limit to how much of that the Council would be prepared to tolerate. As there would be for the geth sending "hunter-killer" task forces all around the Milky Way.

Destroying the Migrant Fleet was never then, and is not now, a realistic goal for the Geth.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
In 300 years they never attacked the Quarians after they left that shows that the Geth adhered to the Turian doctrine

If the geth had adhered to the Turian Doctrine, they would have vassalized the quarians and incorporated them into their empire. They did not.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Keeping peace with the Geth is rather simple its called not trying to mess with them.

Yes and no. A sort of benign coexistence with the rest of the galaxy is not out of the question for the geth. What is entiely unacceptable, and sure to lead to another war, is a return to the pre-Sovereign status quo.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Legion says that the Geth are willing to have long term peace with the Quarians a race that tried to destroy them if they are willing to do that than they'd be more than willing to have peace with everyone else as long as no one goes all "Ah its a machine!!! Kill it with fire!!!!"

Both those remain to be seen. More the former than the latter.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
I said Core Geth so the heritics joining the reapers doesn't matter because I'm talking about the Core Geth here. Also those people turned into husks were killed by the heritics because husk tech is Reaper tech and the Core Geth don't use reaper tech. 1 + 1 =2.

It's a great deal more complex than that. The Orthodox geth can't just disavow the Heretics, especially now that the Eden Prime War is over.

The thing is, I don't think the Orthodox geth understand why they can't simply disown the Heretics after the fact, and that's what worries me about them.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
We know that for 300 years the Geth have been more than happy to have no hostilities with anyone. Once the war is over as long as no one tries to attack them I see no reason to suspect they'd suddenly go out lookiing for trouble. "Every sentient has the right to self determinate." As long as no one tries to harm the Geth the Geth won't harm them.

Isolation is not the equivalent of a lack of hostilities. The three centuries that followed the Morning War were characterized by the geth and the Great Powers eyeing each other warily across the Perseus Veil. Each waiting for the day the other would send an army forth. Until, one fine day in 2183, the geth did just that. It was a decidedly antagonistic relationship that ended in horrific bloodshed and near cataclysm.

The geth, like everyone else (that should go without saying), are only peaceful until they decide not to be. And only believe in self-determination until they don't.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The migrant Fleet was nearly destroyed by some pirates before a quarian gave her life to stop them.... if some random pirates were capable of nearly destroying the fleet the Geth would have no problem. Also you have to remember the sheer size of the fleet is a problem if they are suddenly attacked if all the ships tried to go FTL than they'd run right into eachother ships destroying themselves. They seem to realise this because they have fighters that defend the fleet viciously. Also going into a relay takes days for the entire fleet to go through. The fleet is very bulky and slow and old.

As for the status quo I'm almost 100% sure that once the war is over the Geth are going to become more like Legion where they build a single platform to work on their own. That way the Geth become far more individual and enter the galaxy to learn from it in a more proactive way.
The Heritics are like a seprate country. The Core Geth and Heritics left eachother completely they were no longer a part of eachother. Its like a non-violent revolution.

I'm not saying the Geth aren't partially to blame for the way things are now, they are far too isolationist for their own good. If they had made a Legion of two centuries ago to talk than things would be very different. Now there hand is going to be forced they have to work with other species now and I think it will be best for everyone.

[frostajulie]

The fact is The Geth want to survive but the Quarians have been unwilling to do their part.he Geth according to legion are willing to solve for peace but they cannot do it alone. Thats an olive branch if ever there was one.

Modifié par frostajulie, 06 août 2011 - 12:42 .

[General User]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
The migrant Fleet was nearly destroyed by some pirates before a quarian gave her life to stop them.... if some random pirates were capable of nearly destroying the fleet the Geth would have no problem. 

Those pirates had a woman on the inside, and I don't think they were ever in a position to destroy the entire fleet.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Also you have to remember the sheer size of the fleet is a problem if they are suddenly attacked if all the ships tried to go FTL than they'd run right into eachother ships destroying themselves. They seem to realise this because they have fighters that defend the fleet viciously. 

Why would the ships run into each other?

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Also going into a relay takes days for the entire fleet to go through. The fleet is very bulky and slow and old.

 
When talking about things that can travel faster-than-light, "slow" is a largely irrelevent term.  As long as a ship can travel faster than light, how much faster does not matter... from a tactical perspective.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
As for the status quo I'm almost 100% sure that once the war is over the Geth are going to become more like Legion where they build a single platform to work on their own. That way the Geth become far more individual and enter the galaxy to learn from it in a more proactive way.

Maybe.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
The Heritics are like a seprate country. The Core Geth and Heritics left eachother completely they were no longer a part of eachother. Its like a non-violent revolution.

 
Right, so?  You don't get to give your tacit blessing to insanity and then walk away with clean hands.  As D. Bonhoeffer once said, "Not to speak is to speak.  Not to act, is to act."

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
I'm not saying the Geth aren't partially to blame for the way things are now, they are far too isolationist for their own good. If they had made a Legion of two centuries ago to talk than things would be very different. Now there hand is going to be forced they have to work with other species now and I think it will be best for everyone.

We'll see.

frostajulie wrote...
The fact is The Geth want to survive but the Quarians have been unwilling to do their part.he Geth according to legion are willing to solve for peace but they cannot do it alone. Thats an olive branch if ever there was one.

An olive branch does not a lasting peace make.

Modifié par General User, 06 août 2011 - 01:16 .

[frostajulie]

especially when the other side douses it with gasoline sets it on fire and craps on the remains. 100% of the time

[General User]

That too.

[F00lishG]

Biggest reason why I don't trust Legion or the Geth-It was said in ME1 that anyone that came near the Veil were destroyed. My canon Shepard sold Legion to Cerberus almost immediately. My femShep is keeping Legion around, but is waiting for his possibly inevitable betrayal in ME3

[ISpeakTheTruth]

That's the thing though you don't need to destroy the entire fleet all you need to do is destroy the three food ships and the fleet will die. The fact pirates got that close to pulling it off means that the whole fleet can't spread out in the way you think otherwise all that Quarian would have had to do was tell them what's up and they'd jump. Clearly the fleet isn't capable of it probably because they are so old the majority of said ships don't have FTLs.

@foolishG The ones that were turned into husks were killed by the Heritics and we don't know if the Core Geth were even aware of that happening at the time probably not.

[bleetman]

So I notice the whole "every previous attempt to negotiate with the Geth resulted in the diplomats being immediately attacked and destroyed as soon as they entered Geth space" part has gotten overlooked. Again. Or that the Geth aren't making any effort to demonstrate their willingness for peace beyond Legion telling you, which simply isn't good enough.

You want to know why the Quarians are debating between war or settling on a new planet, and not just making peace with the Geth and going home? This is why. Don't start pretending that the Quarians are kicking Geth emissaries into pits, 300 style.

Modifié par bleetman, 06 août 2011 - 03:06 .

[Sepewrath]

THIS IS THE FLOTILLA!

[TheBlackBaron]

Look, I don't really doubt Legion's assertion that the "Heretic" geth split off from the "Orthodox" geth and that they were the ones involved in the Eden Prime War, nor do I doubt that the geth wouldn't mind this whole thing being over with, but the incessant refrains of "the geth just want peace, it's all the quarians and organics fault" reminds me far too much of No True Scotsman fallacy. They're going to have to own up to the part they themselves have played in creating the fear and distrust the other species have towards them.

[l DryIce l]

bleetman wrote...

So I notice the whole "every previous attempt to negotiate with the Geth resulted in the diplomats being immediately attacked and destroyed as soon as they entered Geth space" part has gotten overlooked. Again. Or that the Geth aren't making any effort to demonstrate their willingness for peace beyond Legion telling you, which simply isn't good enough.

You want to know why the Quarians are debating between war or settling on a new planet, and not just making peace with the Geth and going home? This is why. Don't start pretending that the Quarians are kicking Geth emissaries into pits, 300 style.

There's that and...

"When the creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100 percent of the time."

Wondering why the Geth are so paranoid? That's why. There's no getting around it guys, both sides are at fault. 

[Medhia Nox]

Besides Legion - do we have any proof that there are "Orthodox" Geth?

I like Legion a lot - but I felt that the whole "only some Geth are bad mmmkay" was sprung on the reader like a "this weeks exciting shocker!" moment.

===

BTW - the Quarians attacking could simply be excused away as evolutionary competition.

Sorry Geth - you became a "life form" - welcome to how lifeforms evolve.