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[George-Kinsill]

Saaziel wrote...

Quole wrote...


I doubt that. Why would they not attempt to contact the rest of the galaxy as well? Why just give up? Whenever the citidel races tried to communicate with them, apparently they always let the heretics respond aggresively. Dosnt seem like they have tried that much to negotiate peace in general.

They (Geth) might not have known of the citadel races or the existing political situation. Similarly they might not have cared ; For all intents and purposes they were in conflict only with their Creator.

And as someone else pointed out in an other thread; The Geth might have assumed that people would notice the difference between factions : Heretic/True. Moreover the ties were severed at that point , its not clear how much the True Geth were let on after that.

.

To your first point, this is unlikely, as the Geth seem to have a perfect understanding of citadel space, running experiments on the extranet, and even knowing passages from the bible, a book from a relatively new species. They are perfectly aware of the outside world, and it would be a disservice to the Geth to claim they are that ignorant.

And for your second point, why would the geth assume people know the difference between heretic and orthodox geth? No one has seen the Geth for 300 years, and the only Geth to come out of the veil are ruthlessly attacking organics. With all attempts to communicate with the geth ending in missing ships, the only assumption that can be made is that the heretics represent all the geth, as there is nothing else to compare them to.

[Saaziel]

gosimmons wrote...
Hard to have much basis for a hypothetical like that.

I'm not sure why.

Its a simple gesture : Sending unarmed platforms in neutral territory (It could similarly be a captured segregated Geth hub) . It draws parallel to the real world : Comparable to many diplomatic exchanges made by warring factions in our history . It violates no law or lore. Seems perfectly logical to assume that at one point or an other , the Geth & Quarians had opportunities to communicate.

What is at stake here is whether or not the policy of : "Attacking at every opportunity" is the most efficient/reasonable course of action when at war. Well, even real life Military strategies are not that senseless.

Modifié par Saaziel, 11 août 2011 - 04:45 .

[Skirata129]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saaziel wrote...

Nothing.

You pulled the idea out of your ass then. Good, I just wanted you to admit to it before trying to use it to smear the quarians and justify the geth's brutal genocide and violently enforced isolationism.

Saphra, you do realize that your arguments are the equivalent of a person looking at a robber who was shot in self defense and completely ignoring the circumstances that lead to the shot being fired, right?


"Who cares that he was screaming that he was going to kill you and your family!? look at all that blood!"

[Saaziel]

George-Kinsill wrote...
To your first point, this is unlikely, as the Geth seem to have a perfect understanding of citadel space, running experiments on the extranet, and even knowing passages from the bible, a book from a relatively new species. They are perfectly aware of the outside world, and it would be a disservice to the Geth to claim they are that ignorant.

They are aware yes; its a question to what degree between the time elapse since the conflict. Moreover being aware of something is far different from comprehending it , let along communicating/interacting with it . For example , we are aware of Black holes , yet have no clear understanding of its workings.

As it were Legion is an attempt , made by the Geth , now , at negotiation. Time may not be perceived similarly by the Geth given their Immortality and Light speed cognitive abilities. 300 years is a blink of an eye... aperture ... for them.

George-Kinsill wrote...And for your second point, why would the geth assume people know the difference between heretic and orthodox geth? No one has seen the Geth for 300 years, and the only Geth to come out of the veil are ruthlessly attacking organics. With all attempts to communicate with the geth ending in missing ships, the only assumption that can be made is that the heretics represent all the geth, as there is nothing else to compare them to.

The differences are simply obvious to them; The Heretics calculated a result of 1.33382 , True Geth 1.33381 . Obvious! And much like we anthropomorphise our understanding , so did they . To us its obvious this guy from there and that guy way over there, to an outside observe we're all the same.

In other words , it wasn't something of significance to them.

[George-Kinsill]

Saaziel wrote...

George-Kinsill wrote...
To your first point, this is unlikely, as the Geth seem to have a perfect understanding of citadel space, running experiments on the extranet, and even knowing passages from the bible, a book from a relatively new species. They are perfectly aware of the outside world, and it would be a disservice to the Geth to claim they are that ignorant.

They are aware yes; its a question to what degree between the time elapse since the conflict. Moreover being aware of something is far different from comprehending it , let along communicating/interacting with it . For example , we are aware of Black holes , yet have no clear understanding of its workings.

As it were Legion is an attempt , made by the Geth , now , at negotiation. Time may not be perceived similarly by the Geth given their Immortality and Light speed cognitive abilities. 300 years is a blink of an eye... aperture ... for them.

.

Legion & his platform was not made for negotiation, it was made for finding Shepard's body to find out why he was so succesful against the Reapers, which was part of a larger mission to combat the heretics. It's only chance that brought Legion and Shepard together. Had it not been that both Legion and Shepadr been on the dead Reaper at the same time, everyone would still think that all geth were hostile.

And your original first point was something along the lines that the geth had no knowledge of the outside species, which is just false. THhe geth know there are other species out there, wondering about the geth, they have access to the extranet, the information lifeline of galactic civilization, and are able to communicate perfectly fine with organics when they feel like it, even understanding cultural references regarding philosophy and religion. Tthey have more than enough knowledge to comprehend other species.

[Saaziel]

George-Kinsill wrote...

Legion & his platform was not made for negotiation, it was made for finding Shepard's body to find out why he was so succesful against the Reapers, which was part of a larger mission to combat the heretics.

In my opinion ; Whether it was "Made" for something or an other is irrelevant to the fact that it has shown an interest in a peaceful resolution to the Quarian/Geth conflict.

George-Kinsill wrote...And your original first point was something along the lines that the geth had no knowledge of the outside species, which is just false.

Actually my original quote was : "They (Geth) might not have known of the citadel races or the existing political situation." Notice the word "Might" and how it is used in the phrase. Also notice the other 2 points made in the following remarks emphasizing the tone. Moreover dialogue options with Legion support the assertion that communication and perspectives varies a great deal between Geth and most organics. In turn what they did or didn't know at that point is nebulous at best.

[Skirata129]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Saphra, you do realize that your arguments are the equivalent of a person looking at a robber who was shot in self defense and completely ignoring the circumstances that lead to the shot being fired, right?

No. This is more like the robber being on the ground, injured, no longer a threat, and then the homeowner executing the robber.

At that point it is murder and you're going to prison.

but the geth aren't actively pursuing the quarians. in fact the quarians keep sending expeditions back into geth space knowing that hostile engagements with them will follow.

[Skirata129]

where's your proof that the geth executed anyone outside of a military engagement in the morning war?

[CroGamer002]

Skirata129 wrote...

where's your proof that the geth executed anyone outside of a military engagement in the morning war?

There's only 15 million Quarians left.

I doubt their population was 15 100 000 before Morning War on their homeworld and colonies together, or that 99% of their population was in military.


Also I think it was said they lost billions in that war.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 août 2011 - 07:36 .

[Skirata129]

civilian casualties are high when the battles are being fought in and around populated areas. also, I think it's likely that the majority of them picked up arms in an attempt to fight the geth, as a combination of confusion, fear and well applied propaganda from the government would have easily convinced the quarians that this was an unprovoked attack and they were fighting for their lives.

[Fayfel]

The vast majority of the quarian population was left behind when the migrant fleet departed. Their ultimate fate is unknown.

[S.A.K]

Mesina2 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

where's your proof that the geth executed anyone outside of a military engagement in the morning war?

There's only 15 million Quarians left.

I doubt their population was 15 100 000 before Morning War on their homeworld and colonies together, or that 99% of their population was in military.


Also I think it was said they lost billions in that war.

Thats right. Billions! I can't undestand why people take the side of the geth. They tried to kill Shepard more times than I could remember. All quarians we met are friendly(so to speek). Only friendly geth we saw is Legion. And even he's fighting the heretic geth. I rewrote the heretics to follow legions logic. If that don't make them friendly, might try blowing'em up!

Modifié par S.A.K, 11 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[The Twilight God]

S.A.K wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

where's your proof that the geth executed anyone outside of a military engagement in the morning war?

There's only 15 million Quarians left.

I doubt their population was 15 100 000 before Morning War on their homeworld and colonies together, or that 99% of their population was in military.


Also I think it was said they lost billions in that war.

Thats right. Billions! I can't undestand why people take the side of the geth. They tried to kill Shepard more times than I could remember. All quarians we met are friendly(so to speek). Only friendly geth we saw is Legion. And even he's fighting the heretic geth. I rewrote the heretics to follow legions logic. If that don't make them friendly, might try blowing'em up!

Why are people applying quarian or human cultural ethics to the geth? A quarian is a quarian to a newly developed AI. I wouldn't expect them to make a distinction. The people trying to shut them down weren't all military personnel. It was people from all walks of life.

[Goneaviking]

Skirata129 wrote...

civilian casualties are high when the battles are being fought in and around populated areas. also, I think it's likely that the majority of them picked up arms in an attempt to fight the geth, as a combination of confusion, fear and well applied propaganda from the government would have easily convinced the quarians that this was an unprovoked attack and they were fighting for their lives.

True and true. Additionally in contemporary human history the rate of civilian to military casualties has increased consistently as technology has advanced.

Given the nature of the conflict and the attitudes I suspect that the Quarians would have used whatever tactics seemed viable without examining issues of morality. After all they were just machines created to serve them, and the war began because the Quarians attempted to terminate every single Geth.

If people consider the Geth to be sentient lifeforms that was an attempt at genocide, if they don't then it was just turning off a bunch of machines. The Geth's position on that question is made apparent by their response to the endeavour.

Amakiir wrote...

The vast majority of the quarian
population was left behind when the migrant fleet departed. Their
ultimate fate is unknown.

Where is that stated? I've never heard that before, confirmation of that would change the nature of the debate completely.

[Saaziel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

but the geth aren't actively pursuing the quarians.

So what? They still murdered every quarian who couldn't escape for them.

All is fair in love & war.

Well according to some at least. They say that "Attacking when you think you can win is generally how wars are fought." And also that "the objective of a war is to win."

Since the Quarians are/were the enemies of the geth ; One would conclude that , the same people , praise the Geth for their efforts in the Morning war and lament the fact that they didn't finish the job. Since its fairly easy for any military force to win against civilians , women & children and the defenceless.

Otherwise it would be pretty hypocritical to condemn actions you believe are correct .

[George-Kinsill]

Saaziel wrote...

George-Kinsill wrote...

Legion & his platform was not made for negotiation, it was made for finding Shepard's body to find out why he was so succesful against the Reapers, which was part of a larger mission to combat the heretics.

In my opinion ; Whether it was "Made" for something or an other is irrelevant to the fact that it has shown an interest in a peaceful resolution to the Quarian/Geth conflict.

George-Kinsill wrote...And your original first point was something along the lines that the geth had no knowledge of the outside species, which is just false.

Actually my original quote was : "They (Geth) might not have known of the citadel races or the existing political situation." Notice the word "Might" and how it is used in the phrase. Also notice the other 2 points made in the following remarks emphasizing the tone. Moreover dialogue options with Legion support the assertion that communication and perspectives varies a great deal between Geth and most organics. In turn what they did or didn't know at that point is nebulous at best.

I wouldn't even say Legion has an "interest" in acheiving peace, as he seems a lot more nuetral to the idea. If he was interested in peace, then he would be a lot more adament about opening some type of dialogue. He goes to places like Eden Prime, Noveria, and Feros, without even warning anyone that he is not a heretic Geth, and definitely doesn't talk to anyone in his spare time. In fact, the only thing he seems to do is play MMOs. Peace cannot be achieved if thetwo parties in question never talk to each other, and we know that any diplomats or any ships for that matter entering the perseus veil are attacked and destroyed. Tthe Geth are pretty much following North Korean isolationism. Now, I think the Geth would welcome peace, as Legion says, but its pretty far down on the list of their priorities, as again, it is only mere chance that Legion even says hello to Shepard.

[Skirata129]

George-Kinsill wrote...

I wouldn't even say Legion has an "interest" in acheiving peace, as he seems a lot more nuetral to the idea.

that's understandable as the geth so outnumber and overmatch the quarians and have such little interest in their planet, the idea really does seem irrelevant. it's like Lichtenstein being at war with the US over a piece of land we don't really care about.

[Saaziel]

George-Kinsill wrote...
He goes to places like Eden Prime, Noveria, and Feros, without even warning anyone that he is not a heretic Geth, and definitely doesn't talk to anyone in his spare time.

Warning: This is a dramatisation.

John: Hey Paul , what's that over there ?
Paul: Looks like ... No , it can't be. Not here .
Ringo: What's happening chaps?
Paul : Ringo, what's that over there?
Ringo: Hold on , let me scope it out.
Legion: Howdy partners. We are true Geth , we combat the Heretics . The Beatles combat heretics , cooperation would be mutually beneficial.
John: I didn't know Geth spoke English...Or wore cowboy hats.
Paul: And what the bloody hell is an Heretic ?
Ringo: Sounds like Geth mischief to me ! *BAM!*

And then, there was a hole.

Meant to be taken lightly , but i believe Legion goes over the fact that he was attack at the sights you mentioned. Not sure of the details since my last playthrough was some time ago. I could look up the specifics if you want.

George-Kinsill wrote...Peace cannot be achieved if thetwo parties in question never talk to each other, and we know that any diplomats or any ships for that matter entering the perseus veil are attacked and destroyed.

Out of curiosity i looked up the "Perseus veil" to compare the numbers of ship sent and destroy in Geth space ;The entry in the wiki :"Despite fears of geth, prospectors do occasionally mount salvage ventures inside the Veil; one ended in tragedy. "

Now one ship is hardly "Any ships (As in -all ships-)" sent in. I was wondering where could i find the other claim that "Any ships sent" are destroyed.

To me , at first glance ,it sounds like in-game Rumours & Scaremongering, rather than facts.

Modifié par Saaziel, 11 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[Fayfel]

Goneaviking wrote...

Amakiir wrote...

The vast majority of the quarian population was left behind when the migrant fleet departed. Their
ultimate fate is unknown.

Where is that stated? I've never heard that before, confirmation of that would change the nature of the debate completely.

Chris L'Etoile mentioned it in response to a thread about the quarian population on the old forums. I'd post a link, but those forums went down after the security breach

[CMDR Locke]

pablodurando wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarians are the only side that has actively tried to reach out to their adversary and request peace. The geth have done nothing but kill anyone who comes near them.

Well I guess creating them as a slave race and then trying to exterminate them later doesn't qualify as reasons for the geth to fight back...

The Quarian did NOT create them as sentient/Sapient/Self-Aware slave race.  They created robots/machines/programs to handle labor intensive jobs.  By connected in large amounts these programs simulate sentience/sapience.  

Creating A.I. is illegal and a punishable offense.  So the Quarian tried to disconnect/turn off/render inert the Geth they created.  The Geth FOUGHT back.  The Geth started the war and never tried to reason with the Quarian.  In the end it seems the Geth won as the Quarian are gone.  

After 600 years maybe they truly are sentient/sapient, but they were not created that way. 

[Clonedzero]

first rule of combat.

if someone tries to kill you. you try and kill them right back.

basic rundown.

quarians make geth.
geth become self-aware.
quarians attempt genocide of geth.
geth fight back.
quarians lose and run away.
quarians claim the geth started it and whine for a couple hundred years.

[Goneaviking]

Amakiir wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Amakiir wrote...

The vast majority of the quarian population was left behind when the migrant fleet departed. Their
ultimate fate is unknown.

Where is that stated? I've never heard that before, confirmation of that would change the nature of the debate completely.

Chris L'Etoile mentioned it in response to a thread about the quarian population on the old forums. I'd post a link, but those forums went down after the security breach

That's a pity, it does change the entire dynamic of the situation if there are potentially billions of quarians still alive in geth space. If it remains true then it might be something that gets dealt with in ME3, there certainly wouldn't be a better time for it and it'd make a significantly more helpful argument to persuade the two races to coexist than simply having a common enemy.