483 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

elearon1 wrote...

JediMaster_Murph wrote...

9 months isnt that long, how long does it take to make a geth? 

The difference is, a Geth is a fully formed killing machine once it is built - and from what little we learn in game, it doesn't seem like it takes very long to make a new Geth.  The Quarians, on the other hand, still have to mature and be trained in combat ... I don't recall how fast Quarians mature, but assuming it is similar to humans, we're talking at least 14 years.

What about Krogan clones?  Are they somehow seen as something less than alive?

[JediMaster_Murph]

elearon1 wrote...

JediMaster_Murph wrote...

9 months isnt that long, how long does it take to make a geth? 

The difference is, a Geth is a fully formed killing machine once it is built - and from what little we learn in game, it doesn't seem like it takes very long to make a new Geth.  The Quarians, on the other hand, still have to mature and be trained in combat ... I don't recall how fast Quarians mature, but assuming it is similar to humans, we're talking at least 14 years.

how fast they mature still doesnt justify extermination

[Skirata129]

peopel arguing that geth don't count as a sentient species don't seem to realize how slippery of a slope that train of logic is. the next logical conclusions would esult in thinking that harvesting clones for organs in the manner of The Island is perfectly okay.

Modifié par Skirata129, 02 août 2011 - 03:20 .

[elearon1]

AngelicMachinery wrote...
What about Krogan clones?  Are they somehow seen as something less than alive?

My fault, this thread was moving so fast I fell behind in the conversation.  I'm not saying they are less significant because they can be created more quickly, I'm saying that makes them more dangerous.  

[pablodurando]

Saphra Deden wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

It was defense for trying to deactivate all geth.  The geth saw it as an act of war.  The best defense logically is to completely eradicate the enemy.  Quarians brought this on themselves.

That logic works both ways, kid.

Except the Quarians initiated it.  The geth were not hostile to begin with, only after they were attacked did they respond.

[bleetman]

I would've thought the crucial difference was that you could reasonably destroy the entirety of a synthetic civilization, grinding the remains into a very fine molecular dust, and still rebuild it from scratch whenever you liked. To moderately quote something Legion says, though I don't remember the specific words: synthetic reproduction is as simple as replicating a line of data. There's a complete lack of fragility to their existence.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 août 2011 - 03:22 .

[Skirata129]

Legion displayed attachment to an inanimate object. very indicative of an individual personality.

[pablodurando]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Also, Geth are all the same thing. They are not individuals like humans. In other words, not unique.

No they are not, Legion is over 1000 platforms, and they could not reach consensus on rewriting the heretics.  That shows that there is individulaity in their society and not everyone has the same opinion.

[_Somebody]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Also, Geth are all the same thing. They are not individuals like humans. In other words, not unique.

If they were all the same, then the whole true-geth and heretic-geth conflict would never have happened.

[ObserverStatus]

The Quarians and the Geth deserve each other, IMO. If it weren't for the reaper threat, I'd be satisfied to just let them fight it out.

[elearon1]

Skirata129 wrote...

peopel harvesting clones for organs in the manner of The Island is perfectly okay.

If the organs can't be cloned independant of whole bodies, this is a reasonable debate.  Preferably clones would be designed to have no cognitive processes and simply be organ sacks. 

[pablodurando]

bleetman wrote...

Oh, please don't start pretending that if our computers and automated machinery started spontaneously asking if they were alive and had a soul, that humanity would respond by excitedly embracing them. Or that if it resulted in a war that left less than one percent of the Earth's population alive and on the run, we'd just accept our dwindling, inevitable extinction.

Of course they're sopradically raiding their former homeworlds. What's their other option, exactly? The one (and only, as far as I'm aware) time they found somewhere apparently suitable to scratch a living from, the Citadel moved a fleet in and bombarded their settlement from orbit. Every incursion into Geth space, for whatever reason, it met with open hostility. Like I mentioned, negotiation was already attempted, and always ended with the emissary ships being destroyed as soon as they entered Geth space.. Nobody has any reason to assume reconciliation is possible. It's not like the Geth are bucking for peace, and the Quarians are stubbornly refusing it, here.

The  geth are an AI race.  The Quarians knew the risk of artificial intelligence when they created it.  In this form of AI evolution is to be expected since the sentinal could exist and evolve independently and develop into a society similiar to organics.

[goofyomnivore]

pablodurando wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Also, Geth are all the same thing. They are not individuals like humans. In other words, not unique.

No they are not, Legion is over 1000 platforms, and they could not reach consensus on rewriting the heretics.  That shows that there is individulaity in their society and not everyone has the same opinion.

It isn't individuality, Legion explains as much in game. It is different prespectives. For example, I could say an orange is orange and you could say an orange is round. Both are right neither are different opinions. It is as Legion says (paraphrase) "many eyes looking at problems. tasks, whatever". The programs that vote one way or another have different prespectives or data. It isn't that they disagree or agree with another.

Modifié par strive, 02 août 2011 - 03:29 .

[Skirata129]

elearon1 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

peopel harvesting clones for organs in the manner of The Island is perfectly okay.

If the organs can't be cloned independant of whole bodies, this is a reasonable debate.  Preferably clones would be designed to have no cognitive processes and simply be organ sacks. 

yeah, I have no issue with growing a body with nothing but the most basic of functions, but growing a perfectly aware and unique human for such purposes is abhorrent.

[JediMaster_Murph]

strive wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Also, Geth are all the same thing. They are not individuals like humans. In other words, not unique.

No they are not, Legion is over 1000 platforms, and they could not reach consensus on rewriting the heretics.  That shows that there is individulaity in their society and not everyone has the same opinion.

It isn't individuality, Legion explains as much in game. It is different prespectives. For example, I could say an orange is orange and you could say an orange is round. Both are right neither are different opinions or invididualstic. It is as Legion says (paraphrase) "many eyes looking at problems. tasks, whatever". The programs that vote one way or another have different prespectives or data. It isn't that they disagree or agree with another.

they dont have personalities but there are differences between platforms, they are not all mindless identical robots 3<2 is similar to 2<1 but not the same

[S.A.K]

Now I see the problem. Quarians making the geth is the problem. Well we can fix that.

[pablodurando]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Well, if we're playing the logical card, then logically synthetics will eventually comes to the conclusion that organic life does absolutely nothing for them and is only going to be a threat. 

And, of course, logically, if you've got an entire race "enslaved" (only very loosely applies to the original geth, imo - do we consider robots working on assembly lines enslaved?) and they're starting to gain sentience, which creates a whole mess of problems both internally and potentially externally in the form of Council actions, then the wisest course of action is to get rid of them before things get really bad (which they did, of course, The Morning War essentially being a vast slave rebellion of the sort that kept the Spartans or southern plantation owners up at night). 

And, finally, it's not genocide if it's robots. Seriously. Don't confuse the utter and permanent extermination of an ethnic group with breaking something that can be rebuilt from blueprints. 

The geth already determined that anyone that does not interfere with their future will not be harmed.  Their goal is to reach complete unity and not to take over the galaxy, if they were left alone then they would not attack anyone.

Again, the quarians knew the risk of creating a new living species.   Artificial intelligence is a touchy subject since it develops on its own lines.

The geth are an actual race, they're not just robots.  

[JediMaster_Murph]

S.A.K wrote...

Now I see the problem. Quarians making the geth is the problem. Well we can fix that.

hindsight is 20-20

[pablodurando]

strive wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Also, Geth are all the same thing. They are not individuals like humans. In other words, not unique.

No they are not, Legion is over 1000 platforms, and they could not reach consensus on rewriting the heretics.  That shows that there is individulaity in their society and not everyone has the same opinion.

It isn't individuality, Legion explains as much in game. It is different prespectives. For example, I could say an orange is orange and you could say an orange is round. Both are right neither are different opinions. It is as Legion says (paraphrase) "many eyes looking at problems. tasks, whatever". The programs that vote one way or another have different prespectives or data. It isn't that they disagree or agree with another.

Difference of prespective is a prerequisite when talking about indivuduality.  They tie in to each other.

[_Somebody]

S.A.K wrote...

Now I see the problem. Quarians making the geth is the problem. Well we can fix that.

Yup, by killing all the quarians. 

[S.A.K]

Why don't the geth return Rannoch to the quarians. Its not like they are using it. Doing so will make peace defenetly. Tali and Legion work together fine. So both races can do the same.