483 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

l DryIce l wrote...

Whatever happened in the past seems irrelevant to me. Fact is, the Geth are open to peace right now. The Quarians as a whole are not. The ball is in the Quarian's court.

Yeah. If Shepard can get them to support peace and the geth a rewritten to follow Legions logic, peace is indeed posible. I am a big supporter for peace.

P.S:
The thing about killing the geth I talked about isn't serious. Just messing with some people who want to stop the quarians.
I'd like both geth and quarians to excist in peace.

[pablodurando]

bleetman wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

And how is someone entering their space not a crime against geth.  The geth are seeking unification and to achieve that they need isolation.  

And so they attack and destroy unarmed diplomatic ships and anyone who strays too close? Ok.

Solution: Leave the geth alone so they could reach their goal.

But it's worth mentioning that the presence of Legion shows that Geth are possibly becoming more open to organic species, as I said before, evolving and developing moral codes.

[Skirata129]

Xarathox wrote...

Phew, this a massive troll thread. lol

calling someone a troll just because you don't agree with their opinion is bad conduct. just because I decided to post in a humorous manner doesn't detract from the validity of my argument.

[l DryIce l]

bleetman wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

And how is someone entering their space not a crime against geth.  The geth are seeking unification and to achieve that they need isolation.  

And so they attack and destroy unarmed diplomatic ships and anyone who strays too close? Ok.

Keep in mind that they are not emotional beings. They don't feel compassion or value the lives of other beings. Why should they? If they think killing someone who gets too close is easier than talking with them, then they're going to do it. We shouldn't expect them to be ethical until they've joined the galactic community. 

[C9316]

bleetman wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

And how is someone entering their space not a crime against geth.  The geth are seeking unification and to achieve that they need isolation.  

And so they attack and destroy unarmed diplomatic ships and anyone who strays too close? Ok.

For all the geth knew those ships could've intended to lay out a trap for them, for the geth it is better to err on the side of caution. Is it extreme? Yes, but if someone tried to murder you and a while later tried to speak to you out of the blue would you trust them and be left defenseless if they tried to murder you again?

[bleetman]

Thing is, the Quarians can't just leave them be. Aside from the apparently rare environmental conditions of their home system being seemingly important for their survival outside of a suit, where else could they actually settle? The one time they tried, they were driven out by the Citadel fleet. No other race wants to take on the burden of helping them. They're completely on their own.

The Geth? They could survive just about anywhere with enough resources to maintain them. Which, based on the apparently minimal rate they've been using up the resources present in the system they currently occupy, is very little.

l DryIce l wrote...

Keep in mind that they are not emotional beings. They don't feel compassion or value the lives of other beings. Why should they? If they think killing someone who gets too close is easier than talking with them, then they're going to do it.

This doesn't exactly endear them as a race, you know. It's more of a reason to stamp them out.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 août 2011 - 03:57 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarians are the only side that has actively tried to reach out to their adversary and request peace. The geth have done nothing but kill anyone who comes near them.

It really frustrates me that more people don't understand this.

The geth have done nothing to engender peace. NOTHING!

The quarians have. That was the point of the whole trial. Sure, some of them want war, but others want peace and their whole motivation was to make sure the geth knew that by condemning Rael's research and the war effort.

Where is the geth equivalent? There just isn't one.

This. It's hard to feel all loving towards toasters that want to kill you as soon as you blip onto their radar. Legion accepted Tali's olive branch before he did that and had a good scolding by shep he was willing to send Tali's data back to the geth he was willing to risk his life not for a chance at peace but for potential war. He thought he was just in sending this study back to his people only after shep screams at him does he think about the larger implications of his actions and backs down but Tali was the one who said she'd give him other data.

The only other evidence I can think of that someone might use to say well the geth wanted peace was the fact Legion was built to find shep but that doesn't mean they want peace with the Quarians he was made to find shep and get shep's help only it had nothing to do with the Quarians as far as we know he wanted shep to help him destroy heretics. Legion says they'd be fine with peace but have done nothing to change the galaxies perception of them in order for that possibility to occur.

[Skirata129]

the quarians act like a bunch of DA's though. apparently the geth don't even use the quarian homeworld and live on space stations. so if they could just think logically for a minute, they'd realize the geth are open to a peaceful solution since the geth really lose NOTHING by giving the quarians the world back. the quarians are trying to keep a self perpetuating vendetta alive.

that they started.

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

And how is someone entering their space not a crime against geth.  The geth are seeking unification and to achieve that they need isolation.  

And so they attack and destroy unarmed diplomatic ships and anyone who strays too close? Ok.

Have there been any diplomatic ships? Given the attitude of Council races toward AI, and the general story of the quarian exile (shunned for creating the geth, not for the unprovoked genocide attempt on them), it seems highly unlikely to me that anyone from any race ever made a real, formal attempt to genuinely make nice. More plausible to me is that the organics who get killed in geth space are mostly lost explorers or scouts/spies. Not that that's any more acceptable, but I do think it's worth asking whether anyone on either side, synthetic or organic, has attempted honest peace before.

[TheBlackBaron]

C9316 wrote...
For all the geth knew those ships could've intended to lay out a trap for them, for the geth it is better to err on the side of caution. Is it extreme? Yes, but if someone tried to murder you and a while later tried to speak to you out of the blue would you trust them and be left defenseless if they tried to murder you again?

Then that indicates the geth are too paranoid to ever fully accept peace with organics, and will always be at least a thorn in the side of the other species if not a full-blown threat. 

Again, playing the ever-loved logic card here, the best course of action is to simply get rid of them. Which, apparently, is a perfectly understandable path if the geth are doing it, but god forbid those mean 'ole quarians do the same. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 02 août 2011 - 04:03 .

[bleetman]

Skirata129 wrote...

so if they could just think logically for a minute, they'd realize the geth are open to a peaceful solution since the geth really lose NOTHING by giving the quarians the world back.

Again, let me state this clearly and in no uncertain terms:

Every time the Quarians - or anyone else for that matter - have attempted peaceful diplomacy with the Geth, they've been obliterated.

A few assumptions based on where the Geth install their wifi routers isn't much to go on in comparison.

[Skirata129]

uhuh. and when have the Quarians attempted diplomacy. sources please.

[l DryIce l]

bleetman wrote...

Thing is, the Quarians can't just leave them be. Aside from the apparently rare environmental conditions of their home system being seemingly important for their survival outside of a suit, where else could they actually settle? The one time they tried, they were driven out by the Citadel fleet. No other race wants to take on the burden of helping them. They're completely on their own.

The Geth? They could survive just about anywhere with enough resources to maintain them. Which, based on the apparently minimal rate they've been using up the resources present in the system they currently occupy, is very little.

l DryIce l wrote...

Keep in mind that they are not emotional beings. They don't feel compassion or value the lives of other beings. Why should they? If they think killing someone who gets too close is easier than talking with them, then they're going to do it.

This doesn't exactly endear them as a race, you know. It's more of a reason to stamp them out.

They don't think like us  is not a reason to kill off an entire sentient race. Should the galactic community have wiped out the Krogan when they first encountered them? They were a violent race. They've killed plenty, and even after the Krogan Rebellions they still weren't seen as a big enough threat to wipe out completely. 

Like the Krogan, the Geth have value, and they can be reasoned with. You simply don't wipe out a species that can be reasoned with; certainly not one that is open to peace. 

[bleetman]

Quething wrote...

Have there been any diplomatic ships? Given the attitude of Council races toward AI, and the general story of the quarian exile (shunned for creating the geth, not for the unprovoked genocide attempt on them), it seems highly unlikely to me that anyone from any race ever made a real, formal attempt to genuinely make nice.

If the novels are to be believed, yes. To quote from Revelation:

"In the aftermath of the war, the Geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored regions behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered Geth space."

[l DryIce l]

bleetman wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

so if they could just think logically for a minute, they'd realize the geth are open to a peaceful solution since the geth really lose NOTHING by giving the quarians the world back.

Again, let me state this clearly and in no uncertain terms:

Every time the Quarians - or anyone else for that matter - have attempted peaceful diplomacy with the Geth, they've been obliterated.

A few assumptions based on where the Geth install their wifi routers isn't much to go on in comparison.

Woah, woah, woah. I'd like to see evidence of that. I've never heard of any race attempt "peaceful diplomacy" with the Geth. That doesn't even make sense. Why would the Quarians even try? Source please. 

EDIT: I saw what you wrote above. 
EDIT2: And what you wrote doesn't make any sense at all with what Legion says in the video below. We know that they are open to peace. Legion is Geth. They say this directly in ME2. Perhaps the attacks were misunderstandings. 

"When the creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100 percent of the time."

Modifié par l DryIce l, 02 août 2011 - 04:15 .

[bleetman]

It's in the novels. Read up one post.

It's non-specific as to who was attempting said negotiations, sure. Given the Council's apparent indifference towards the whole thing, I'm largely assuming it was the Quarians. Either way, there you go.

I don't know what to make about the whole "100 percent of the time" thing. The statement is, after all, preceded with "when they believed victory was possible". That doesn't inherently exclude attempts at reconciliation/hiding/fleeing/anything not involving attacking first.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 août 2011 - 04:19 .

[Skirata129]

bleetman wrote...

Quething wrote...

Have there been any diplomatic ships? Given the attitude of Council races toward AI, and the general story of the quarian exile (shunned for creating the geth, not for the unprovoked genocide attempt on them), it seems highly unlikely to me that anyone from any race ever made a real, formal attempt to genuinely make nice.

If the novels are to be believed, yes. To quote from Revelation:

"In the aftermath of the war, the Geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored regions behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered Geth space."

very questionable. I think that might actually contradict conversations with tali in the first game.

[l DryIce l]

bleetman wrote...

It's in the novels. Read up one post.

It's non-specific as to who was attempting said negotiations, sure. Given the Council's apparent indifference towards the whole thing, I'm largely assuming it was the Quarians. Either way, there you go.

Eh...I don't think you should assume anything. It seems much more likely that there were extreme misunderstandings between the Geth and the intentions of the vessels. 

[S.A.K]

WoW quarians are winning here.

[Skirata129]

you know what I do when I meet an animal that could be dangerous? not attack it. the quarians upon recognition of the sentience of their creation decided to wipe them out. One of the Geth's first memories is of their parents trying to murder them. and killing their parents in self defense.

Modifié par Skirata129, 02 août 2011 - 04:20 .

[C9316]

l DryIce l wrote...

bleetman wrote...

It's in the novels. Read up one post.

It's non-specific as to who was attempting said negotiations, sure. Given the Council's apparent indifference towards the whole thing, I'm largely assuming it was the Quarians. Either way, there you go.

Eh...I don't think you should assume anything. It seems much more likely that there were extreme misunderstandings between the Geth and the intentions of the vessels. 

Agreed, and for all we know the ones who attacked could have been those who eventually became the heretics and not the true geth.

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Somesmartguy wrote...

Wow, ANOTHER geth apologist. You people never surprise me anymore though you do sicken me. I don't know how you could have developed such a shallow and childish perception of what happened during the Morning War and afterwards.

The quarians did not do anything wrong. The geth achieved sentience due to a malfunction; they were not designed to ever do that. IT was supposed to be impossible. The fact that they did implied a /major/ error. Of-course the quarians were scared, why wouldn't they be? There were millions, perhaps billions of geth platforms, many of them armed. They were integrated into every portion of quarian society. The quarians knew that if the geth became hostile that their species faced total destruction.

They couldn't afford to sit around and try to reason with the geth. The safest course of action was to order the shut-down of all geth before any more became self-aware. Then they could analyze what had gone wrong and correct it.

They didn't realize they were too late.

Even Legion says that the geth went too far and this means that the geth were not very well developed, cognitively, at this point. This FURTHER reinforces the point that the quarians were right to fear their creations. If the geth were so primitive that they'd slaughter 99% of the quarian race then what makes you think peace was even possible back then? It is certainly possible now, but that was no guarantee during the Morning War.

And...what happened in the past is relevant to present problems how? The Geth are open to peace now. Currently. Like...right now. Here. Present. 

The Quarians are not. And it's not unreasonable that they haven't come to a decision yet, but the facts still remain. Until the Quarians decide that they want peace, there cannot be peace. If they decide they want to forcefully retake their homeworld, fine; but they would be doing so against a race that is ope

Modifié par l DryIce l, 02 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[Unpleasant Implications]

S.A.K wrote...

Anyway we should stop this fight. It will just get the thread locked. How can we make peace in the galaxy while we can't make peace in a forum.

I plan on using Paragon/Renegade "I win." options. What about you?

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

Quething wrote...

Have there been any diplomatic ships? Given the attitude of Council races toward AI, and the general story of the quarian exile (shunned for creating the geth, not for the unprovoked genocide attempt on them), it seems highly unlikely to me that anyone from any race ever made a real, formal attempt to genuinely make nice.

If the novels are to be believed, yes. To quote from Revelation:

"In the aftermath of the war, the Geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored regions behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered Geth space."

Hmn, you're right, that doesn't look too good for them. (I agree with Skirata129 that that seems to contradict game lore, but so does much of the games, so I'm willing to accept it's TPTB's current canon).

I agree it probably was the quarians. If only because they seem to be the only race who widely agree that synthetic life is actually life and capable of actual sentience. I've always figured that the quarian loathing of geth was probably the best sign of hope the geth have for coexistence with organics. You don't hate bikes or laptops or toaster ovens. Hate is personal and thus an acknowlegement (or imposition, depending) of personhood in its target. Xen's perspective that AI are just tools seems to be considered an aberration by quarians, but it's pretty much the norm among everyone else in the MEverse except maybe Thane, and you don't peacefully coexist with tools that don't do what you want. You just junk them.

Modifié par Quething, 02 août 2011 - 04:33 .