483 réponses à ce sujet

[Capt_Flashheart]

Skirata129 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Quething wrote...

Have there been any diplomatic ships? Given the attitude of Council races toward AI, and the general story of the quarian exile (shunned for creating the geth, not for the unprovoked genocide attempt on them), it seems highly unlikely to me that anyone from any race ever made a real, formal attempt to genuinely make nice.

If the novels are to be believed, yes. To quote from Revelation:

"In the aftermath of the war, the Geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored regions behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered Geth space."

very questionable. I think that might actually contradict conversations with tali in the first game.

Not really.

[S.A.K]

Skirata129 wrote...

you know what I do when I meet an animal that could be dangerous? not attack it. the quarians upon recognition of the sentience of their creation decided to wipe them out. One of the Geth's first memories is of their parents trying to murder them. and killing their parents in self defense.

Someone should warn your parents to be careful. Anyway what do you suggest quarians should have done? Give the geth a hug? If a machine you use is dangerous you turn it off.

[l DryIce l]

Skirata129 wrote...

you know what I do when I meet an animal that could be dangerous? not attack it. the quarians upon recognition of the sentience of their creation decided to wipe them out. One of the Geth's first memories is of their parents trying to murder them. and killing their parents in self defense.

To be fair, the Quarians had no idea how far the Geth had truly come. How could they know the Geth were fully sentient and would react the way they did. It was a difficult situation, but an easier one to analyze afterwards. Personally, I don't think it's at all relevant to the problem that they're currently facing. The options are going to ultimately be peace or war. The Geth have already made their stance (not in the most effective way, but even they admit that they are still trying to understand organics). It's completely up to the Quarians now. 

[NugatRevolution]

The Quarians and the Geth are not making peace.

It's like asking Muslims and Jews to be best friends.

They hate eachother on principle... Well, the geth don't have emotions, but you know what I mean.

[Skirata129]

S.A.K wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

you know what I do when I meet an animal that could be dangerous? not attack it. the quarians upon recognition of the sentience of their creation decided to wipe them out. One of the Geth's first memories is of their parents trying to murder them. and killing their parents in self defense.

Someone should warn your parents to be careful. Anyway what do you suggest quarians should have done? Give the geth a hug? If a machine you use is dangerous you turn it off.

I actually would have helped them flesh out their identity a bit. strongly influencing them away from the killing all organic life route by giving them positive experiences with an organic lifeform and trying to transfer and awareness of morality. you can't shut down a creation that can survive as long as it is near to a wireless device in a galaxy that probably has less dead zones than live ones.


and I'm a little curious why my parents need to be careful.

Modifié par Skirata129, 02 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

And...what happened in the past is relevant to present problems how?

I just like bringing that up to show that the quarians never did anything wrong.

Any thread about the geth inevitably means people slamming the quarians for their part in the Morning War.

As it relates to now, well it doesn't directly. Though the geth had a more defendable position back then seeing as they didn't seek to start hostilities. Now though they've earned for themselves a reputation of violent isolationism and apathy.

We're better off just eradicating them.

They dug their own grave. Let them lay in it.

I was completely agreeing with you until you made your bolded points. I think the Geth have value. I think their value is worth trying to have peace with them. Much like the Krogan, I don't think that acts in the past or the acts of a certain group of them should damn them completely in the future. 

Note also that they didn't completely dig their own grave. They didn't create the situation they found themselves in. When they...awoken...became fully sentient (whatever you want to call it), they reacted according to simple logic. Brutal, unethical logic. They can't be entirely to blame for that. 

Again, what we do know is that they are open to peace now. They're putting the past aside. It's completely up to the Quarians now (but we really know it's going to be Shepard's call, don't we? I mean, really.)

[l DryIce l]

NugatRevolution wrote...

The Quarians and the Geth are not making peace.

It's like asking Muslims and Jews to be best friends.

They hate eachother on principle... Well, the geth don't have emotions, but you know what I mean.

Bologna. Pure bologna. Bologna analogy, bologna argument, bologna pessimism. 

One side is open to peace. That is a fact. The other side is still coming to a consensus. That is in no way similar to the analogy you used. The Geth do not hate the Quarians, and not all Quarians hate the Geth. To assume that peace is impossible is to underestimate the intelligence of both species. 

I'd like to believe that they can come to at least a temporary peace. 

[bleetman]

l DryIce l wrote...

And...what happened in the past is relevant to present problems how? The Geth are open to peace now. Currently. Like...right now. Here. Present.

The Quarians are not. And it's not unreasonable that they haven't come to a decision yet, but the facts still remain. Until the Quarians decide that they want peace, there cannot be peace. If they decide they want to forcefully retake their homeworld, fine; but they would be doing so against a race that is ope

But the thing is, the Quarians have no idea of that. The Geth aren't advertising their sudden willingness to parlay. The only reason we know about it is because Legion explains it to us. It's not as if the Quarians are going all 300 on them and kicking Geth emissaries into giant pits. They have no idea. And, given that it still coincides with Geth shooting holes in their marine teams, I wouldn't blame them for being skeptical anyway.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Skirata129]

I think most of the people advocating the destruction of the geth are acting out of pure xenophobia. I side with the geth because if I had been exposed to the exact same situation they were, I would have acted in a very similiar fashion.

[StellarMagic]

Honestly the whole Morning War is a case of a massive screw up on the part of both sides. That's right both sides are at fault.

The quarians were at fault for overreacting to the appearance of geth sapience and reacting with an immediate shut down order. They started the fight and the geth responded to the shut down order as a threat to their existence. Hence war.

The geth are at fault for not attempting to negotiate a peace when they'd clearly won. The only reason the quarians would have to flee in the flotilla would be if neither side attempted a negotiated cease fire. You don't get to such a desperate point unless both sides refused to negotiate. There are any number of reasons why this couldn't have happened (perhaps the geth simply lacked units capable of acting as Legion does).

Geth isolation has only further complicated the issue. Attacking any that enter their space without warning or threat to expel them without force. Again process conservation may be in part responsible if their ships are unable to communicate with organics.

Quarian actions since the Morning War have left them circling the drain. Ships are failing, their immune systems will soon reach a point where re-acclimation will be impossible, and their population is under constant threat of famine if a liveship fails. Three liveships to feed 17 million, that's around 6 million dead if one gives up the ghost.

So the situation has come to a head... the two sides will either fight or make peace. Doing nothing will probably result in at least the end of the quarian race.

[xXljoshlXx]

If there is a choice for me taking sides or giving peace I would go for peace but if i had to choose I would side with the Geth

[darthnick427]

Skirata129 wrote...

I recently became aware of exactly how much the quarians were losing out by fighting the geth due to an incredibly insightful comment by a person going by the name "titanicbodyparts" on a youtube video of Kal'Reegar's first sighting of Legion on Tali's recruitment mission.

"Hello Quarians, Look at yourselves, Now back to us, Now back at yourselves, BACK TO US, Sadly you hate Geth, But if you stopped hating, We could eventually come to a truce. Look down, back up. Where are you? Your on your home world, with your family and everyone you love. We took care of it. Whats on your head? Back at us, we have it, The helmet you don't need anymore, Now look again, the helmet is now eezo. Everything is possible when you give Geth a chance. We live in space stations. "

consider the possibilities.

This. I want the old spice guy top pop out of nowhere and say thing in mass effect three. 

If they had just entered negotiations with the geth and achknowledged them as a race instead of trying to wipe them out they would have never been exiled from their own world

[l DryIce l]

bleetman wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

And...what happened in the past is relevant to present problems how? The Geth are open to peace now. Currently. Like...right now. Here. Present.

The Quarians are not. And it's not unreasonable that they haven't come to a decision yet, but the facts still remain. Until the Quarians decide that they want peace, there cannot be peace. If they decide they want to forcefully retake their homeworld, fine; but they would be doing so against a race that is ope

But the thing is, the Quarians have no idea of that. The Geth aren't advertising their sudden willingness to parlay. The only reason we know about it is because Legion explains it to us. It's not as if the Quarians are going all 300 on them and kicking Geth emissaries into giant pits. They have no idea. And, given that it still coincides with Geth shooting holes in their marine teams, I wouldn't blame them for being skeptical anyway.

No, no, no; I agree completely. I'm not saying the Quarians should know what the Geth think. The Geth have done a horrible job of communicating what they think (until ME2...sort of...but not really). I was just saying that it's entirely up to the Quarians at this point since the Geth have already come to a decision. 

[MadCat221]

I'm predicting that there'll be a checklist of "Peace-conducive decisions" that are checked off in the transfer flag list to ME3.

Off the top of my head, I can recall four: Exonerating Tali by means of calling out the sham trial (makes all the Admirals go "Okay... what the heck was that?"), advocating Admiral Koris's stance at the end of the trial, bringing Legion along to the trial to show that geth's default mode isn't "kill all organics" (just the Heretics), and resolving the Tali/Legion loyalty conflict by karmically based dialog choices.

Probably make it three out of four, so those who didn't wait till the last minute because of the stupid Derelict Reaper Point of No Return problem that makes Talimancing mutually exclusive to bringing Legion along to her trial (It takes three inter-mission dialogs to commit, and there's only two allowed before the Suicide Mission).

Likewise, there'll probably be some that completely torpedo your chances of making true peace... such as blowing the lid on Daddy's Dirty Deeds, or selling off Legion to Cerberus.

Modifié par MadCat221, 02 août 2011 - 04:56 .

[C9316]

bleetman wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

And...what happened in the past is relevant to present problems how? The Geth are open to peace now. Currently. Like...right now. Here. Present.

The Quarians are not. And it's not unreasonable that they haven't come to a decision yet, but the facts still remain. Until the Quarians decide that they want peace, there cannot be peace. If they decide they want to forcefully retake their homeworld, fine; but they would be doing so against a race that is ope

But the thing is, the Quarians have no idea of that. The Geth aren't advertising their sudden willingness to parlay. The only reason we know about it is because Legion explains it to us. It's not as if the Quarians are going all 300 on them and kicking Geth emissaries into giant pits. They have no idea. And, given that it still coincides with Geth shooting holes in their marine teams, I wouldn't blame them for being skeptical anyway.

In my opinion I think this is because the geth function on pure logic. They most likely came to the conclusion that unless the quarians are 100% open to peace, any talks between them would be pointless. As legion said, when the quarians thought they could beat the geth they attacked 100% of the time. The geth aren't taking any chances.

[MadCat221]

C9316 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

And...what happened in the past is relevant to present problems how? The Geth are open to peace now. Currently. Like...right now. Here. Present.

The Quarians are not. And it's not unreasonable that they haven't come to a decision yet, but the facts still remain. Until the Quarians decide that they want peace, there cannot be peace. If they decide they want to forcefully retake their homeworld, fine; but they would be doing so against a race that is ope

But the thing is, the Quarians have no idea of that. The Geth aren't advertising their sudden willingness to parlay. The only reason we know about it is because Legion explains it to us. It's not as if the Quarians are going all 300 on them and kicking Geth emissaries into giant pits. They have no idea. And, given that it still coincides with Geth shooting holes in their marine teams, I wouldn't blame them for being skeptical anyway.

In my opinion I think this is because the geth function on pure logic. They most likely came to the conclusion that unless the quarians are 100% open to peace, any talks between them would be pointless. As legion said, when the quarians thought they could beat the geth they attacked 100% of the time. The geth aren't taking any chances.

They need a third party to mediate.

A peacemaker.

[l DryIce l]

C9316 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

And...what happened in the past is relevant to present problems how? The Geth are open to peace now. Currently. Like...right now. Here. Present.

The Quarians are not. And it's not unreasonable that they haven't come to a decision yet, but the facts still remain. Until the Quarians decide that they want peace, there cannot be peace. If they decide they want to forcefully retake their homeworld, fine; but they would be doing so against a race that is ope

But the thing is, the Quarians have no idea of that. The Geth aren't advertising their sudden willingness to parlay. The only reason we know about it is because Legion explains it to us. It's not as if the Quarians are going all 300 on them and kicking Geth emissaries into giant pits. They have no idea. And, given that it still coincides with Geth shooting holes in their marine teams, I wouldn't blame them for being skeptical anyway.

In my opinion I think this is because the geth function on pure logic. They most likely came to the conclusion that unless the quarians are 100% open to peace, any talks between them would be pointless. As legion said, when the quarians thought they could beat the geth they attacked 100% of the time. The geth aren't taking any chances.

Yep. Both sides are dealing with it in their own way, which is a really big problem if you're trying to get them to coexist peacefully. The Geth still don't understand organics, and the Quarians definitely don't understand the intentions of the Geth. Legion would be perfect for talking with them, making negotiations, settling issues. Why this wasn't done in ME2 boggles my mind, but maybe in ME3....

[StellarMagic]

^^That's right.. Saphra is pro-Xen in ME3. If that choice is even going to be available.^^

God, I just wish Zaal'Koris wasn't such an insufferable ****** in ME2. I like how Shepard pushes off the table and shakes his head dismissively when Zaal responds to the "Don't throw your lives away against the geth" conversation choice in the Trial.

Modifié par StellarMagic, 02 août 2011 - 05:05 .

[l DryIce l]

Saphra Deden wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

I was completely agreeing with you until you made your bolded points. I think the Geth have value. I think their value is worth trying to have peace with them. Much like the Krogan, I don't think that acts in the past or the acts of a certain group of them should damn them completely in the future.

The geth don't have generations. It's all the same entity. This means the geth who eradicated the quarians and continued to remain hostile for hundreds of years are the same geth around to day.

I should clarify though. I don't really want to eradicate them. I'd rather pacify them and put them back to work.

That's not true. The Geth are constantly evolving. They're constantly gaining new information. The Geth who eradicated the Quarians did so to prevent themselves from being wiped out. It's what any sentient species would have done. The Quarians are responsible, but I wouldn't have expected them to know how far the Geth had evolved. 

I'll try to make a good analogy. It would be like saying the person I was 10 years ago is the same person I am today. The actual body is (somewhat), but not me. I've changed completely, and the Geth have changed as well. And putting them back to work is slavery. It would be horrible...and mainly just nonsensical to do that to a species who wants to self-determinate. 

[MadCat221]

StellarMagic wrote...

^^That's right.. Saphra is pro-Xen in ME3. If that choice is even going to be available.^^

God, I just wish Zaal'Koris wasn't such an insufferable ****** in ME2. I like how Shepard pushes off the table and shakes his head dismissively when Zaal responds to the "Don't throw your lives away against the geth" conversation choice in the Trial.

He does apologize for being a ******, though.

Which is more than can be expected from most politicians.

Modifié par MadCat221, 02 août 2011 - 05:09 .

[GodWood]

Xen 'em!
Xen 'em all!

[MadCat221]

GodWood wrote...

Xen 'em!
Xen 'em all!

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who disregard history are doomed to outdo it.

[l DryIce l]

StellarMagic wrote...

^^That's right.. Saphra is pro-Xen in ME3. If that choice is even going to be available.^^

God, I just wish Zaal'Koris wasn't such an insufferable ****** in ME2. I like how Shepard pushes off the table and shakes his head dismissively when Zaal responds to the "Don't throw your lives away against the geth" conversation choice in the Trial.

Honestly, I'm not sure why Shepard responded that way. Wasn't Koris agreeing with him? Or is there some subtle, political crap that I'm not getting?