483 réponses à ce sujet

[MadCat221]

l DryIce l wrote...

StellarMagic wrote...

^^That's right.. Saphra is pro-Xen in ME3. If that choice is even going to be available.^^

God, I just wish Zaal'Koris wasn't such an insufferable ****** in ME2. I like how Shepard pushes off the table and shakes his head dismissively when Zaal responds to the "Don't throw your lives away against the geth" conversation choice in the Trial.

Honestly, I'm not sure why Shepard responded that way. Wasn't Koris agreeing with him? Or is there some subtle, political crap that I'm not getting? 

He's jumping on the bandwagon way too quickly, looks like he's snatching support up greedily.

[l DryIce l]

MadCat221 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Xen 'em!
Xen 'em all!

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who disregard history are doomed to outdo it.

No, no, no. Making slaves of a species who wants to develop on their own terms is what any sane Quarian would do. There couldn't possibly be any hostility towards such an act. I mean, they were slaves before. They can handle it. 

*continues bad sarcasm for several more hours*

[l DryIce l]

MadCat221 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

StellarMagic wrote...

^^That's right.. Saphra is pro-Xen in ME3. If that choice is even going to be available.^^

God, I just wish Zaal'Koris wasn't such an insufferable ****** in ME2. I like how Shepard pushes off the table and shakes his head dismissively when Zaal responds to the "Don't throw your lives away against the geth" conversation choice in the Trial.

Honestly, I'm not sure why Shepard responded that way. Wasn't Koris agreeing with him? Or is there some subtle, political crap that I'm not getting? 

He's jumping on the bandwagon way too quickly, looks like he's snatching support up greedily.

Oh. Okay...I guess. He is a politician, though. He sort of thrives on support. 

[StellarMagic]

Even if you agree with Zaal'Koris, there's no liking him... He tries to get Tali exiled posthumously, is trying to use the trial to swing the fleet toward his point of view, and is clearly driven exclusively by politics. The guy basically says as much if you talk to him before the Alarei.

My thoughts on the reaction... You agree with his position, dislike him personally for what he did.

[FoxShadowblade]

The Geth reacted how any living creature would react when threatened: Fought back. This organic response is supported by the way they continued to attack any ships that were attempting to reach them in the Perseus Veil. Think: If you know one person your whole life, and that person tries to kill you, would you ever trust another to come close?

But the Geth have also shown several signs of a possible peace. For one, in talks with Legion it is revealed the Geth work in space stations and clean up the damage caused by the Morning War on Quarian planets, particularly the Quarian Homeworld. Geth have also shown a very distinct interest in the rest of the Galaxy, showing either caution or genuine curiousity, also shown by talking to Legion that they receive all organic transmissions and even send out a few of their own to probe the other races.

What we also see from Legion(besides a horrible attempt at lying) is that Geth, when so many minds are connected, show emotion. His "field repair" with Shepard's armor, armor found at what he thought was Shepard's grave. This implies that they have achieved a new level of sapience. Not merely thinking, reasoning creatures, but creatures that feel as well. Another possible indication of emotion would be the honorable title "creators" not "enemy", the Geth do not hate the Quarians, in fact from the little Tali/Legion scuffle, it seems the Geth admire the Quarians.

I believe Quarians are the problem of this equation. The Geth act because they feel the rest of the galaxy is trying to kill them because that is all the Quarians ever tried to do. The OP has a good grasp of things, if the Quarians could just man up and stop whining, there could be room for peace.

And let's face it, if you played your cards right, then in ME3, there will be peace.

Or the Reapers will just wipe out the Geth for being "outside their plans".

[FoxShadowblade]

StellarMagic wrote...

Even if you agree with Zaal'Koris, there's no liking him... He tries to get Tali exiled posthumously, is trying to use the trial to swing the fleet toward his point of view, and is clearly driven exclusively by politics. The guy basically says as much if you talk to him before the Alarei.

My thoughts on the reaction... You agree with his position, dislike him personally for what he did.

I disagree with his position. He wants to run and hide on a new world. I believe the Quarians need to face what they did and come to terms with the Geth, and settle their original worlds again.

Zaal'Koris, along with all the other admirals, is defined by his politics. He cannot be trusted, that is for sure.

His response to the peace option was annoying at best. But I'd rather support him than Han'Gerrel or Daro'Xen. Han'Gerrel just wants to fight, and Daro'Xen's policy will only end in another war.

Modifié par FoxShadowblade, 02 août 2011 - 05:21 .

[l DryIce l]

StellarMagic wrote...

Even if you agree with Zaal'Koris, there's no liking him... He tries to get Tali exiled posthumously, is trying to use the trial to swing the fleet toward his point of view, and is clearly driven exclusively by politics. The guy basically says as much if you talk to him before the Alarei.

My thoughts on the reaction... You agree with his position, dislike him personally for what he did.

As were all the other members. Besides the assumption of Tali's guilt, he seemed like a reasonable guy. Much moreso than the other Xen and...that other guy who makes just as big of an assumption (Tali's innocence). 

[GodWood]

l DryIce l wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
The geth don't have generations. It's all the same entity. This means the geth who eradicated the quarians and continued to remain hostile for hundreds of years are the same geth around to day.

I should clarify though. I don't really want to eradicate them. I'd rather pacify them and put them back to work.

That's not true. The Geth are constantly evolving. They're constantly gaining new information. The Geth who eradicated the Quarians did so to prevent themselves from being wiped out. It's what any sentient species would have done. The Quarians are responsible, but I wouldn't have expected them to know how far the Geth had evolved. 

I'll try to make a good analogy. It would be like saying the person I was 10 years ago is the same person I am today. The actual body is (somewhat), but not me. I've changed completely, and the Geth have changed as well.

If you commit genocide 10 years ago you'd still be guilty of genocide today.
I couldn't care how much new sh*t you learned.

[FoxShadowblade]

GodWood wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
The geth don't have generations. It's all the same entity. This means the geth who eradicated the quarians and continued to remain hostile for hundreds of years are the same geth around to day.

I should clarify though. I don't really want to eradicate them. I'd rather pacify them and put them back to work.

That's not true. The Geth are constantly evolving. They're constantly gaining new information. The Geth who eradicated the Quarians did so to prevent themselves from being wiped out. It's what any sentient species would have done. The Quarians are responsible, but I wouldn't have expected them to know how far the Geth had evolved. 

I'll try to make a good analogy. It would be like saying the person I was 10 years ago is the same person I am today. The actual body is (somewhat), but not me. I've changed completely, and the Geth have changed as well.

If you commit genocide 10 years ago you'd still be guilty of genocide today.
I couldn't care how much new sh*t you learned.

So someone comes to your house, shoots your family. You shoot them, then shoot their family. Your guilty of genocide more than the other?

Not saying any side is more innocent than the other, but the Geth have dealt with their guilt and are ready for peace, Quarians are still debating about it, which is why there can't be peace.

[GodWood]

MadCat221 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Xen 'em!
Xen 'em all!

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who disregard history are doomed to outdo it.

Exactly.
The quarians should not make the same mistakes they made before and prevent them from gaining 'sapience' again.

[l DryIce l]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

StellarMagic wrote...

Even if you agree with Zaal'Koris, there's no liking him... He tries to get Tali exiled posthumously, is trying to use the trial to swing the fleet toward his point of view, and is clearly driven exclusively by politics. The guy basically says as much if you talk to him before the Alarei.

My thoughts on the reaction... You agree with his position, dislike him personally for what he did.

I disagree with his position. He wants to run and hide on a new world. I believe the Quarians need to face what they did and come to terms with the Geth, and settle their original worlds again.

Zaal'Koris, along with all the other admirals, is defined by his politics. He cannot be trusted, that is for sure.

His response to the peace option was annoying at best. But I'd rather support him than Han'Gerrel or Daro'Xen. Han'Gerrel just wants to fight, and Daro'Xen's policy will only end in another war.

I agree with that, but you've got to keep in mind what the Quarians perception of the Geth situation is. They have any reason to believe peace is currently possible. Korris wants it, and that's a step in the right direction, but the more likely option (to him) is that peace will only come if they leave their world to the Geth. 

[FoxShadowblade]

l DryIce l wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

StellarMagic wrote...

Even if you agree with Zaal'Koris, there's no liking him... He tries to get Tali exiled posthumously, is trying to use the trial to swing the fleet toward his point of view, and is clearly driven exclusively by politics. The guy basically says as much if you talk to him before the Alarei.

My thoughts on the reaction... You agree with his position, dislike him personally for what he did.

I disagree with his position. He wants to run and hide on a new world. I believe the Quarians need to face what they did and come to terms with the Geth, and settle their original worlds again.

Zaal'Koris, along with all the other admirals, is defined by his politics. He cannot be trusted, that is for sure.

His response to the peace option was annoying at best. But I'd rather support him than Han'Gerrel or Daro'Xen. Han'Gerrel just wants to fight, and Daro'Xen's policy will only end in another war.

I agree with that, but you've got to keep in mind what the Quarians perception of the Geth situation is. They have any reason to believe peace is currently possible. Korris wants it, and that's a step in the right direction, but the more likely option (to him) is that peace will only come if they leave their world to the Geth. 

Exactly! But from what you learn from Legion is that peace is acquireable with the Quarians going back to their Homeworld. Koris simple doesn't consider this, the Quarian view is that the Geth will always war.

[l DryIce l]

GodWood wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Xen 'em!
Xen 'em all!

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who disregard history are doomed to outdo it.

Exactly.
The quarians should not make the same mistakes they made before and prevent them from gaining 'sapience' again.

They can't "prevent them from gaining sapeince again". They've already got it. What you're suggesting is to go back to the conditions that were right before the Morning War. How in the world does that make sense. That makes less sense than straight up war. At least with war you wipe out the other race (or at least most of it). With Xen's plan, you go to war, enslave them, and cross your fingers in hopes that the same thing doesn't happen again. Derpity herp derp. 

[GodWood]

FoxShadowblade wrote...
So someone comes to your house, shoots your family. You shoot them, then shoot their family. Your guilty of genocide more than the other?

Both murderers are guilty.
One simply hasn't been punished yet.

Not saying any side is more innocent than the other, but the Geth have dealt with their guilt and are ready for peace, Quarians are still debating about it, which is why there can't be peace.

Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

[l DryIce l]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

StellarMagic wrote...

Even if you agree with Zaal'Koris, there's no liking him... He tries to get Tali exiled posthumously, is trying to use the trial to swing the fleet toward his point of view, and is clearly driven exclusively by politics. The guy basically says as much if you talk to him before the Alarei.

My thoughts on the reaction... You agree with his position, dislike him personally for what he did.

I disagree with his position. He wants to run and hide on a new world. I believe the Quarians need to face what they did and come to terms with the Geth, and settle their original worlds again.

Zaal'Koris, along with all the other admirals, is defined by his politics. He cannot be trusted, that is for sure.

His response to the peace option was annoying at best. But I'd rather support him than Han'Gerrel or Daro'Xen. Han'Gerrel just wants to fight, and Daro'Xen's policy will only end in another war.

I agree with that, but you've got to keep in mind what the Quarians perception of the Geth situation is. They have any reason to believe peace is currently possible. Korris wants it, and that's a step in the right direction, but the more likely option (to him) is that peace will only come if they leave their world to the Geth. 

Exactly! But from what you learn from Legion is that peace is acquireable with the Quarians going back to their Homeworld. Koris simple doesn't consider this, the Quarian view is that the Geth will always war.

Yes, but Korris doesn't know what you know. None of the Quarians do. They don't have a mind synching device. The Geth haven't negotiated with them. Legion would be perfect for doing this, and as I said before, I have no idea why the Quarians ignored THE GETH, the talking, understandable Geth in their fleet. Maybe in ME3.

[Skirata129]

GodWood wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...
So someone comes to your house, shoots your family. You shoot them, then shoot their family. Your guilty of genocide more than the other?

Both murderers are guilty.
One simply hasn't been punished yet.

Not saying any side is more innocent than the other, but the Geth have dealt with their guilt and are ready for peace, Quarians are still debating about it, which is why there can't be peace.

Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

you're conveniently forgetting the fact that you attempted to kill the man who did that and his entire species, and he shot everyone in self defense minus the puppy, the spine and a few surviving members of the family when you all fled and he let you go.

[l DryIce l]

GodWood wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...
So someone comes to your house, shoots your family. You shoot them, then shoot their family. Your guilty of genocide more than the other?

Both murderers are guilty.
One simply hasn't been punished yet.

Not saying any side is more innocent than the other, but the Geth have dealt with their guilt and are ready for peace, Quarians are still debating about it, which is why there can't be peace.

Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

That depends. Do you want to do what is best for your species / most logical? Or...do you want to be driven by emotion and revenge? Besides (to use your analogy), punishing the man will cost a huge amount of lives, whereas forgiving him will save a huge amount of lives. Again, logic vs. emotion. 

[l DryIce l]

I'm out. I've made all mah points and stuff. It's late. Damn you, BSN.

[pablodurando]

This thread has made me realize that just about every argument on here turns into a circular argument fast.

[Quole]

To be fair, the Geth didnt help when they decided to not even try and communicate with the rest of the galaxy. They should have known that everyone would react to them in a hostile manner if the only geth interacting with anyone are the heretics.

[FoxShadowblade]

GodWood wrote...
Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

[FoxShadowblade]

pablodurando wrote...

This thread has made me realize that just about every argument on here turns into a circular argument fast.

It's like that on any forum so..why are you here?

[GodWood]

Skirata129 wrote...
you're conveniently forgetting the fact that you attempted to kill the man who did that and his entire species, and he shot everyone in self defense minus the puppy, the spine and a few surviving members of the family when you all fled and he let you go.

[this analogy was not meant to be a paralel to the geth/quarian war only the idea that time doesn't wash away someone's crimes.]

and you're conveniently forgetting that the geth man murdered billions of people who did not try to wipe them him out and were only trying to defend themselves.

The man/geth/whatever is/are still guilty.

[S.A.K]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

You forgot one thing. Geth are alive because of the quarians.

[GodWood]

l DryIce l wrote...

They can't "prevent them from gaining sapeince again". They've already got it. What you're suggesting is to go back to the conditions that were right before the Morning War. How in the world does that make sense. That makes less sense than straight up war. At least with war you wipe out the other race (or at least most of it). With Xen's plan, you go to war, enslave them, and cross your fingers in hopes that the same thing doesn't happen again. Derpity herp derp. 

I'm thinking you don't understand Xen's intentions.

Xen wishes to revert them back to simple machines [non-sapient] and keep them simple machines.
Not simply 'enslave' the geth as they are now.