483 réponses à ce sujet

[FoxShadowblade]

S.A.K wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

You forgot one thing. Geth are alive because of the quarians.

And the Quarians attempted to end that life. Any chance of using "we created them, they owe us" died in the Morning War. The Geth acted as any Human would: as life dictated, and removed the threat. They fought for their place in existence and won, as every race that survives does.

[S.A.K]

GodWood wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

They can't "prevent them from gaining sapeince again". They've already got it. What you're suggesting is to go back to the conditions that were right before the Morning War. How in the world does that make sense. That makes less sense than straight up war. At least with war you wipe out the other race (or at least most of it). With Xen's plan, you go to war, enslave them, and cross your fingers in hopes that the same thing doesn't happen again. Derpity herp derp. 

I'm thinking you don't understand Xen's intentions.

Xen wishes to revert them back to simple machines [non-sapient] and keep them simple machines.
Not simply 'enslave' the geth as they are now.

Xen is crazy. Tali made it clear.

[FoxShadowblade]

GodWood wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

They can't "prevent them from gaining sapeince again". They've already got it. What you're suggesting is to go back to the conditions that were right before the Morning War. How in the world does that make sense. That makes less sense than straight up war. At least with war you wipe out the other race (or at least most of it). With Xen's plan, you go to war, enslave them, and cross your fingers in hopes that the same thing doesn't happen again. Derpity herp derp. 

I'm thinking you don't understand Xen's intentions.

Xen wishes to revert them back to simple machines [non-sapient] and keep them simple machines.
Not simply 'enslave' the geth as they are now.

So in essence, she wants to lobotomize them, and use them as a labor force(slaves).

Anyone here played Gears of War? I think Daro'Xen is related to the Locust.

[Quole]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

Thats no excuse to kill countless innocents, including children.

[GodWood]

FoxShadowblade wrote...
Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

Ignoring the fact that my analogy has been misinterpreted

Your point does not matter.
The quarians who are guilty of genocide are dead, the geth however are not.
They still need to be punished.

[FoxShadowblade]

Quole wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Ok now it's my turn for a silly analogy:
Man walks into your home and shoots your family, eats your puppies and shoots you in the spine so you can never walk again.

You find him 10 years later and he says "Sorry about that".
Do you simply forgive him or do you have him punished?

Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

Thats no excuse to kill countless innocents, including children.

I agree, there is no excuse. There is the choice to continue warring, and cause more death, or to make peace. War will mean both races ultimate defeat at the hands of the Reaper fleet, as no race in the ME Galaxy is strong enough to fight two wars simultaneously.

[GodWood]

FoxShadowblade wrote...
So in essence, she wants to lobotomize them, and use them as a labor force(slaves).

Pretty much.
That's what you get for murdering billions of people.

We could just wipe them out but I imagine that's more difficult, plus it doesn't give you millions of robot workers afterwards.

S.A.K wrote...
Xen is crazy. Tali made it clear.

Tali is young, naive and doesn't know what she wants.

She'll come around.

Modifié par GodWood, 02 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[FoxShadowblade]

GodWood wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...
Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

Ignoring the fact that my analogy has been misinterpreted

Your point does not matter.
The quarians who are guilty of genocide are dead, the geth however are not.
They still need to be punished.

Why? What use could that punishment possibly serve? 

Turians are still alive after the First Contact War with the Humans, they killed many innocents on Shanxi. But they are not punished, they repair relations by paying for it in services. 

The Geth have paid in an as of yet unknown(to the Quarians) way, they have cleaned and maintained the Quarian Homeworld and Colonies. I would see this, as well as a desire for peace, as reparations for the Morning War.

Punishment breeds only animosity.

[FoxShadowblade]

GodWood wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...
So in essence, she wants to lobotomize them, and use them as a labor force(slaves).

Pretty much.
That's what you get for murdering billions of people.

We could just wipe them out but I imagine that's more difficult, plus it doesn't give you millions of robot workers afterwards.

Frankly that's disgusting. I would prefer murder over robbing free will. You still assume fault is with the Geth, and that the Geth are monsters.

The act of robbing a sapient creature of free will and higher thought process would make one a monster in my book.

[GodWood]

FoxShadowblade wrote...
Why? What use could that punishment possibly serve?

I take it you hate the prison system.

Turians are still alive after the First Contact War with the Humans, they killed many innocents on Shanxi. But they are not punished, they repair relations by paying for it in services.

The turians need not be punished.
Only the individual turians who commit war crimes at the first contact war do.

The Geth have paid in an as of yet unknown(to the Quarians) way, they have cleaned and maintained the Quarian Homeworld and Colonies. I would see this, as well as a desire for peace, as reparations for the Morning War.

Woop di doo.
They slaughtered 99% of their population and murdered any ships who came in their system (potential peace envoys)

They dug their grave.

[GodWood]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

GodWood wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...
So in essence, she wants to lobotomize them, and use them as a labor force(slaves).

Pretty much.
That's what you get for murdering billions of people.

We could just wipe them out but I imagine that's more difficult, plus it doesn't give you millions of robot workers afterwards.

Frankly that's disgusting. I would prefer murder over robbing free will.

Even if they're a criminal?
Alright difference of opinion and all that. 

You still assume fault is with the Geth, and that the Geth are monsters.

You're missing the point.

YES the First Contact War is a grey area and YES it can be argued both sides are guilty

HOWEVER

One side is dead and the other who has murdered billions is still running free.
I only wish to have the remaining guilty party punished.

The act of robbing a sapient creature of free will and higher thought process would make one a monster in my book.

You have no free will

Modifié par GodWood, 02 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[whywhywhywhy]

While I feel the geth will be valuable allies due to indoctrination immunity. If I had to pick a side I pick the Quarians. The Geth could have resisted without killing so many people and simply went out on their own and forged their own destiny. So why the Violent reaction when all they have to do is get away ? Especially since synthetic life is so different then organic life. The Geth's violent reaction was proof the Quarians were correct in their assesment that the Geth would turn violent. They held no loyalty to the Quarians for creating them and didn't try escape so they could try reasoning or peace later.

[Inutaisho7996]

GodWood wrote...
The act of robbing a sapient creature of free will and higher thought process would make one a monster in my book.You have no free will

Yes we do.

I can link to Wikipedia articles on beliefs and pass them off as fact too.

Modifié par Inutaisho7996, 02 août 2011 - 06:53 .

[GodWood]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
The act of robbing a sapient creature of free will and higher thought process would make one a monster in my book.You have no free will

Yes we do. 

Ew, a soft determinest.

I can link to Wikipedia articles on beliefs and pass them off as fact too.

How dare I save myself some time and link him to an article that tells him all he'd need to know instead of going on some epic off-topic rant on the finer intricate details of determinism.


He mentioned free will a couple of times so I gave him my perspective, geez.

Modifié par GodWood, 02 août 2011 - 07:16 .

[Inutaisho7996]

GodWood wrote...

I can link to Wikipedia articles on beliefs and pass them off as fact too.

How dare I save myself some time and link him to an article that tells him all he'd need to know instead of going on some epic off-topic rant on the finer intricate details of determinism.


He mentioned free will a couple of times so I gave him my perspective, geez.

I'm not saying you're lazy.

[jshadow]

Look people point is, Quarians started it, they payed the price. If they're too full of pride and hate to try reach a peaceful compromise with their "childern", that's too bad for them. Something that's happened more than 300 years ago can't be undone nor will it bring any justification in trying to punish the Geth. But peace between the 2 of them is possible. Tali/Legion confrontation proves it. Beside, like Shepherd said "Sooner or later you'll have to stop fighting this stupid war, or we'll end up paying the price for it." Who better to help stop giant mechanical "dieties" than united force of robotic sentients and aliens with affinity for machines?

Modifié par jshadow, 02 août 2011 - 07:37 .

[GodWood]

jshadow wrote...
Look people point is, Quarians started it, they payed the price. If they're too full of pride and hate to try reach a peaceful compromise with their "childern", that's too bad for them. Something that's happened more than 300 years ago can't be undone nor will it bring any justification in trying to punish the Geth.

Why not?

[jshadow]

GodWood wrote...

jshadow wrote...
Look people point is, Quarians started it, they payed the price. If they're too full of pride and hate to try reach a peaceful compromise with their "childern", that's too bad for them. Something that's happened more than 300 years ago can't be undone nor will it bring any justification in trying to punish the Geth.

Why not?

exmpl: You think it would it be justifuable if people of Balcan started killing Turks, because 500 years ago they went on march across their land killing and pillaging and than occopy their land?

And don't give me "of course it doesn't justify it, but Geth are nothing but walking talking toasters, it's not the same" thing

[GodWood]

jshadow wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jshadow wrote...
Look people point is, Quarians started it, they payed the price. If they're too full of pride and hate to try reach a peaceful compromise with their "childern", that's too bad for them. Something that's happened more than 300 years ago can't be undone nor will it bring any justification in trying to punish the Geth.

Why not?

exmpl: You think it would it be justifuable if people of Balcan started killing Turks, because 500 years ago they went on march across their land killing and pillaging and than occopy their land?

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You haven't a single one of my posts have you?

If I subscribed to that foolish logic I'd be in favour of punishing today's quarians as well.

But why aren't I ?
Because the quarians involved in the First Contact War are all dead!

But then, why do I want to punish the geth?
Because they're the same geth that murdered billions of innocent quarians 300 years ago.
They don't have generations. They don't die.
The geth are one continuous collective entity.

And don't give me "of course it doesn't justify it, but Geth are nothing but walking talking toasters, it's not the same" thing

I don't believe I've ever given such a response.

[jshadow]

GodWood wrote...

jshadow wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jshadow wrote...
Look people point is, Quarians started it, they payed the price. If they're too full of pride and hate to try reach a peaceful compromise with their "childern", that's too bad for them. Something that's happened more than 300 years ago can't be undone nor will it bring any justification in trying to punish the Geth.

Why not?

exmpl: You think it would it be justifuable if people of Balcan started killing Turks, because 500 years ago they went on march across their land killing and pillaging and than occopy their land?

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You haven't a single one of my posts have you?

If I subscribed to that foolish logic I'd be in favour of punishing today's quarians as well.

But why aren't I ?
Because the quarians involved in the First Contact War are all dead!

But then, why do I want to punish the geth?
Because they're the same geth that murdered billions of innocent quarians 300 years ago.
They don't have generations. They don't die.
The geth are one continuous collective entity.

I don't exactly fancy going through all 8 pages reading everything, so sorry if I happend to offend you.

Beside, machines aren't forever too, they get broken with time so they need to be replaced. In anycase, the robotics are just Geth's mobile platforms, while they're just programs.

What, are you just gonna press DELETE button on some programs, because fighting back is a defense mechinism?

Modifié par jshadow, 02 août 2011 - 08:12 .

[GodWood]

jshadow wrote...
I don't exactly fancy going through all 8 pages reading everything, so sorry if I happend to offend you.

You did directly tell me to stop (then edited it out) so I figured you at least had some idea of what my stance was.

Sorry for overestimating you.

Beside, machines aren't forever too, they get broken with time so they need to be replaced. In anycase, the robotics are just Geth's mobile platforms, while they're just programs.

Read the codex. Learn about how they work.

What, are you just gonna press DELETE button on some programs, because fighting back is a defense mechinism?

Think harder please.

Fighting back would not warrant the complete eradication of 99% the entire quarian species.

There came a point at which the quarians could not offer any effective resistance and yet the geth persisted in killing them down to the last man, woman, and child.

[xXljoshlXx]

GodWood wrote...

jshadow wrote...
I don't exactly fancy going through all 8 pages reading everything, so sorry if I happend to offend you.

You did directly tell me to stop (then edited it out) so I figured you at least had some idea of what my stance was.

Sorry for overestimating you.

Beside, machines aren't forever too, they get broken with time so they need to be replaced. In anycase, the robotics are just Geth's mobile platforms, while they're just programs.

Read the codex. Learn about how they work.

What, are you just gonna press DELETE button on some programs, because fighting back is a defense mechinism?

Think harder please.

Fighting back would not warrant the complete eradication of 99% the entire quarian species.

There came a point at which the quarians could not offer any effective resistance and yet the geth persisted in killing them down to the last man, woman, and child.

You have proof?

The quarians wouldn't have done the same thing if they had won the war?

If the species wanted to completely eradictate you it does warrant that

[nightcobra]

loved the statement of legion when i said to tali that they should be treated as machines

legion: No 2 species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism.