483 réponses à ce sujet

[jshadow]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

loved the statement of legion when i said to tali that they should be treated as machines

legion: No 2 species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism.

See, this is why I like Geth. =) They're driven by cold hard logic. So if peace would be offered to them, they would accept it, they'd have no emotional reasons to say no. Quarians however is a problem, because most of them blame Geth for making them exilers, while it's their own pride and fear that's made it happen in the 1st place.

[S.A.K]

Why do some many people on this thread try to justify genocide? What ever side did that is wrong. The quarians lost almost everything because of the geth. The geth isolated themselves and destroyed any ship thying to contact them. So if peace isn't possible, I am taking the quarians side because they suffered enough.

Edit: Legion is the only geth we ever met that haven't tried to kill Shepard. So I hope that rewrite thing worked. If not, I don't think peace is possible.

Modifié par S.A.K, 02 août 2011 - 10:04 .

[jshadow]

S.A.K wrote...

Edit: Legion is the only geth we ever met that haven't tried to kill Shepard. So I hope that rewrite thing worked. If not, I don't think peace is possible.

Considering all the Geth so far (except maybe those on Hailstrom) were Heretics, I don't peace would be the problem, as Legion said, but both sides must be willing to do so.

[upsettingshorts]

Quarians:

1) Attempted to play God by creating life
2) Were horrified when their creations became self aware
3) Panicked and tried to murder them all
4) Were beaten in a war they started
5) Refuse to accept responsibility for what they've done
6) Continue to play the victim for a situation they created
7) Romantisize their status and use it as an inspiration for pipe dreams like building a house on the homeworld
8) Blame everyone else for their problems but themselves

The Quarians, through the Geth crisis, revealed the kind of people they are: Cowards.

As a species, they seem convinced they can still win the war and return to the pre-Morning War status quo where everything was okay.  It doesn't work like that.  The war is over.  They lost.  It's time to negotiate with the Geth to end it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 août 2011 - 10:27 .

[nightcobra]

S.A.K wrote...

Why do some many people on this thread try to justify genocide? What ever side did that is wrong. The quarians lost almost everything because of the geth. The geth isolated themselves and destroyed any ship thying to contact them. So if peace isn't possible, I am taking the quarians side because they suffered enough.

Edit: Legion is the only geth we ever met that haven't tried to kill Shepard. So I hope that rewrite thing worked. If not, I don't think peace is possible.

the quarians are a bit stubborn though, it's been 400 years 
by now they would have been almost adapted to another environment in another colony planet which they said it would take between 60 to 600 years.

also the geth only retaliated for their own survival (it's genocide for both races) if only because in all the cases with quarian contact, 100% of those was met with the quarian attacking them.
 

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 02 août 2011 - 10:16 .

[C9316]

S.A.K wrote...

Why do some many people on this thread try to justify genocide? What ever side did that is wrong. The quarians lost almost everything because of the geth. The geth isolated themselves and destroyed any ship thying to contact them. So if peace isn't possible, I am taking the quarians side because they suffered enough.

The quarians lost almost everything due to their own actions of trying to shut them all down, in other words they started the war themselves, their ignorance towards what they created lost them nearly everything. While it is regrettable the quarians were almost exterminated they threw themselves at the ruthlessly efficient beings they made, and most would still like to now.

[Ghost Warrior]

green_lemur wrote...

old spice FTW!

lol,exactly what I was thinking

[General User]

Are the geth willing to give peace a chance?

Legion once said that peace requires willingness on both sides. I think they were more right than perhaps they realized. A lasting peace between the quarians and the geth would require not just a willingness to talk but a willingness to makes physical concessions by both sides.

This is particularly problematic in this instance because the Morning War ended in such a lopsided fashion. The geth are going to have to make the lionshare of physical concessions no matter what, simply because the quarians have nothing left to concede, apart from purely symbolic concessions like an apology.  And how much the geth would actually value such an act is dubious at best.

So until the geth actually give some sort of indication as to what they are and are not willing to give up and/or demand from the quarians in exchange for a lasting peace (and vice versa for that matter), I am beyond hesitant to jump on the "peace bandwagon."

Modifié par General User, 02 août 2011 - 12:47 .

[BatmanPWNS]

My Regen Shep is going to enjoy wiping out the Geths. >

My main one though is trying to get peace and thats why I support Qwib-Qwib.

[C9316]

BatmanPWNS wrote...
My main one though is trying to get peace and thats why I support Qwib-Qwib.

You dared to ask about the Qwib-Qwib!?

[Trakarg]

S.A.K wrote...

C9316 wrote...

This wouldn't even be a problem if the quarians hadn't tried to deactivate them all, which to the geth was an attempt of genocide on their entire race, so in this case the quarians got off easy in my opinion. The geth were well within their rights to completely exterminate the quarians for trying to completely wipe them out for no good reason other than the geth asking if they had souls. I also find it understandable for the geth to have adopted their isolationist stance towards organics, the last time they were associated with organics they were nearly exterminated.

WTF? Quarians tried to deactivate the machines they made. Are you siggesting that I commit murder when I throw away my old pc? And who gave the geth the right to commit genocide? Buddy what planet are you from?

Your computer isn't sentient, bro.  The geth only commited genocide in response to the quarian attempts to do the same thing.

My vanguard shep would side with the geth if peace is impossible.  My adept shep (whose LI is tali) would side with the quarians.

[l DryIce l]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Quarians:

1) Attempted to play God by creating life
2) Were horrified when their creations became self aware
3) Panicked and tried to murder them all
4) Were beaten in a war they started
5) Refuse to accept responsibility for what they've done
6) Continue to play the victim for a situation they created
7) Romantisize their status and use it as an inspiration for pipe dreams like building a house on the homeworld
8) Blame everyone else for their problems but themselves

1) That's wrong. They never "attempted to play God" because they hadn't, at that point, realized how far the Geth had come in terms of sentience. I'm going to assume you meant sentient beings instead of "life" since the Geth are not alive. If you did mean sentience, your first and second point contradict each other. If you did mean life, then your first point is wrong. 

3) Intentions are everything. They didn't realize the Geth were sentient at that point. They did not know what they were doing was murder. If you're trying to understand a species, rather than making them all look the same, don't paint them all with one brush. 

5) Not all of them. Some of them do, some of them don't. Same can be applied to 6 and 7. 

8) Who? Who do they blame their problems on? I've never heard one Quarian blame the problem on a species other than themselves and the Geth. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 02 août 2011 - 04:28 .

[l DryIce l]

GodWood wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...
Well you got one thing right: it was a silly analogy.

Your analogy is one sided, it is irrelevant to the situation posed in the Mass Effect Universe. Geth and Quarians both inflicted MASSIVE casualities on each other, not the Geth just inflicting genocide on the Quarians.

Unless you consider the Geth casualities not relevant, in which case you cannot be reasoned with, and the discussion is over.

Ignoring the fact that my analogy has been misinterpreted

Your point does not matter.
The quarians who are guilty of genocide are dead, the geth however are not.
They still need to be punished.

That's ridiculous. Why do they need to be punished? They are not organics. They don't feel emotion (which is the very thing that's driving your desire for revenge/punishment). 

You guys have once again brought up a problem that happened in the past. Both sides were clearly at fault. I must ask, yet again, how this issue is relevant to the current problem we have? Revenge (aka, "they need to be punished") is the only reason I've seen, and a bad one at that. It's downright barbarism. 

If the Quarians did want revenge, they'd risk a huge amount of lives and the chance that they might not get it. How is this in any way preferable to peace? The Geth are open to peace. They don't seek revenge for what the Quarians tried to do to them. They have no need for it. The Quarians should stop living in the past, and start focusing more on current issues. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 02 août 2011 - 04:39 .

[l DryIce l]

S.A.K wrote...

Why do some many people on this thread try to justify genocide? What ever side did that is wrong. The quarians lost almost everything because of the geth. The geth isolated themselves and destroyed any ship thying to contact them. So if peace isn't possible, I am taking the quarians side because they suffered enough.

Edit: Legion is the only geth we ever met that haven't tried to kill Shepard. So I hope that rewrite thing worked. If not, I don't think peace is possible.

That doesn't make any sense. "If peace is possible"...you're going to take a side? What? You realize that the cooperation of both sides are required for peace. The Geth are open to peace. The Quarians are still undecided. That's where we are right now. The past doesn't matter. 

EDIT: I'm not sure if I read it wrong, or if you changed what you wrote, but...nevermind then. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 02 août 2011 - 05:26 .

[huntrrz]

General User wrote...

Are the geth willing to give peace a chance?

Legion once said that peace requires willingness on both sides. I think they were more right than perhaps they realized. A lasting peace between the quarians and the geth would require not just a willingness to talk but a willingness to makes physical concessions by both sides.

This is particularly problematic in this instance because the Morning War ended in such a lopsided fashion. The geth are going to have to make the lionshare of physical concessions no matter what, simply because the quarians have nothing left to concede, apart from purely symbolic concessions like an apology.  And how much the geth would actually value such an act is dubious at best.

So until the geth actually give some sort of indication as to what they are and are not willing to give up and/or demand from the quarians in exchange for a lasting peace (and vice versa for that matter), I am beyond hesitant to jump on the "peace bandwagon."

Have you talked to Legion after ending the game?  You can learn quite a bit about the Geth, including the fact that they have been cleaning up the Quarian homeworld and are willing return it to them.  (They don't need it, they live on space stations.)

[General User]

huntrrz wrote...

General User wrote...

Are the geth willing to give peace a chance?

Legion once said that peace requires willingness on both sides. I think they were more right than perhaps they realized. A lasting peace between the quarians and the geth would require not just a willingness to talk but a willingness to makes physical concessions by both sides.

This is particularly problematic in this instance because the Morning War ended in such a lopsided fashion. The geth are going to have to make the lionshare of physical concessions no matter what, simply because the quarians have nothing left to concede, apart from purely symbolic concessions like an apology.  And how much the geth would actually value such an act is dubious at best.

So until the geth actually give some sort of indication as to what they are and are not willing to give up and/or demand from the quarians in exchange for a lasting peace (and vice versa for that matter), I am beyond hesitant to jump on the "peace bandwagon."

Have you talked to Legion after ending the game?  You can learn quite a bit about the Geth, including the fact that they have been cleaning up the Quarian homeworld and are willing return it to them.  (They don't need it, they live on space stations.)

See that's kinda what I mean. The geth might be willing to give up the quarian homeworld, which you rightly point out isn't of any particular value to them. But there are a few problems with that. I mean, If you were the geth would you allow your most persistent enemy to set up camp in the heart of your territory? Or would you have them disarm first? And just how likely do you think the quarians would be to accept anything like that? And consider that form the quarian's point of view, talk about a siege mentality. For either the geth or the quarians just giving up Rannoch is a bad deal.

And even apart from military considerations, just that one planet won't be enough to ensure a lasting peace. In order for the Migrant Fleet to successfully transform itself into a stable, independent, planet-based society in the Mass Effect age, the geth are going to have to cede to the quarians at least the entire quarian home system, and (very probably) make further territorial concessions to give the quarians unfettered access to the relay network. 

The truth is, if the geth really want a lasting peace, they will not only have to turn over to their traditional enemies military installations that have been integral to their defense for centuries, but will have to relocate or dismantle the space stations and industrial facilities that are at the heart of their civilization.

The geth almost surely are willing to give up things that they don't particularly value (as are we all), but my point is that it remains to be seen whether or not they are willing to give up things they do.

Modifié par General User, 02 août 2011 - 09:27 .

[Quole]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Quarians:

1) Attempted to play God by creating life
2) Were horrified when their creations became self aware
3) Panicked and tried to murder them all
4) Were beaten in a war they started
5) Refuse to accept responsibility for what they've done
6) Continue to play the victim for a situation they created
7) Romantisize their status and use it as an inspiration for pipe dreams like building a house on the homeworld
8) Blame everyone else for their problems but themselves

The Quarians, through the Geth crisis, revealed the kind of people they are: Cowards.

As a species, they seem convinced they can still win the war and return to the pre-Morning War status quo where everything was okay.  It doesn't work like that.  The war is over.  They lost.  It's time to negotiate with the Geth to end it.

Thats honestly one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the BSN. Thats saying a lot.

Modifié par Quole, 02 août 2011 - 05:15 .

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

I don't see what all the Geth sympathy is about. Sentient or not, they're still machines, and they've commited atrocities against organics several times. I'm all for the Quarians destroying them.

[bleetman]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

As a species, they seem convinced they can still win the war and return to the pre-Morning War status quo where everything was okay.  It doesn't work like that.  The war is over.  They lost.  It's time to negotiate with the Geth to end it.

Of course they do. It's called 'clinging to hope'. Their only apparent alternative is dwindling, inevitable extinction. The other races aren't interested in helping them. The galaxy at large views them as pests and thieves. Their previous attempt to settle elsewhere were met with Council ships bombarding the planet from orbit. Of course they want their homeworld back.

Besides, as it's been mentioned a few times already, previous attempts to negotiate with the Geth (either by them, or another race. It's non-specific on that point) were met with instant hostility. It's no wonder they've stopped trying.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 août 2011 - 05:24 .

[l DryIce l]

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

I don't see what all the Geth sympathy is about. Sentient or not, they're still machines, and they've commited atrocities against organics several times. I'm all for the Quarians destroying them.

Sentient or not makes all the difference in the world. Organics are machines, too, just like the Geth. The only difference is that we're made up of different stuff and we think differently, but that same thing could be said when comparing any organic race. 

The Quarians tried to wipe them out. They never intended to destroy a sentient race, but that's what they tried to do. Were the Geth not right in striking back? Yes, they struck back with force and were not ethical in their destruction. But why would we expect them to be? They are completely logical beings, unaffected by emotion. 

Had the Quarians not attempted to destroy the Geth, the Morning War probably wouldn't have happened at all. We didn't destroy the Krogans for their actions before and after the Krogan Rebellions, did we? I absolutely don't understand how any of you can actually favor war over peace. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 02 août 2011 - 05:35 .

[l DryIce l]

@The Big Bad Wolf

I agree with you to a point. It was murder. Not intentional murder, but murder nonetheless. And whether it was a malfunction that led to their sentience or not, the Geth are currently sentient. People need to realize that, because when you say it was just a "malfunction", it seems like you are assuming that they are still following some predetermined programming. They are not.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

l DryIce l wrote...

Had the Quarians not attempted to destroy the Geth, the Morning War probably wouldn't have happened at all. We didn't destroy the Krogans for their actions before and after the Krogan Rebellions, did we? I absolutely don't understand how any of you can actually favor war over peace. 

Except the Krogan are mostly isolated and have been extremely weakened. The Geth on the other hand are rapidly expanding and, as shown by their actions against Shepard and the Quarians, have some strong anti-organic sentiments.

[C9316]

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Had the Quarians not attempted to destroy the Geth, the Morning War probably wouldn't have happened at all. We didn't destroy the Krogans for their actions before and after the Krogan Rebellions, did we? I absolutely don't understand how any of you can actually favor war over peace. 

Except the Krogan are mostly isolated and have been extremely weakened. The Geth on the other hand are rapidly expanding and, as shown by their actions against Shepard and the Quarians, have some strong anti-organic sentiments.

Only the heretics hate organics, but seeing as they are seemingly taken care off in ME2 they no longer matter. The true geth on the other have little to no hostility towards organics, and only wish to be left alone to their own devices.