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Interesting Video: ME3 Graphics Improvements


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#26
pacer90

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CBKeffer wrote...

Blarty wrote...

It notes that so far cutscenes are not pre-rendered - has that been confirmed. I got a new gfx card at the weekend and the cutscenes are substantially shown out to be the poor cousin, when playing at high res (1920x1080p) and (1680x1050).

Damn, that's now 3 copies of ME3 I'm going to have to buy.....

(tries to convince himself that he wasn't going to buy it on PS3, 360 and PC, anyway)


Very interesting, and seeing as how I do 3d modeling and animation (granted for it's for industrial applications, but that just changes the product, not the process) I would love to see how this actually works and how/if it would change the way we do animations. BTW the link is getting passed around the office now, thanks for posting it :)



Wow I missed that! So it's like Half Life 2? 

#27
Sashimi_taco

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So are we going to get that quality of graphics on the xbox? Probably not i guess.

#28
CBKeffer

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Arcian wrote...

That's cool.

Now, for ME4, let's implement this.

I f***ing love the future.


Bah, meant to quote this post. I'm still not used to those buttons being on the top of a post rather than the bottom.

#29
CBKeffer

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Sashimi_taco wrote...

So are we going to get that quality of graphics on the xbox? Probably not i guess.


That is going to depend on how this method of creation is handled. If they are truely processing that stuff with off the shelf components, then it is in the realm of possibility for some of the top end titles. This said, price is going to be a huge determining factor in wether this stuff takes off or not. I mean, it looks pretty and the possibilities are pretty incredible with it, but if it's going to jack the price of games up to say $80-90 a game and require specialized hardware to run it, then it's going to be a while before it gets implimented with regularity on any platform.

#30
Cyberfrog81

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Blarty wrote...

It notes that so far cutscenes are not pre-rendered - has that been confirmed. I got a new gfx card at the weekend and the cutscenes are substantially shown out to be the poor cousin, when playing at high res (1920x1080p) and (1680x1050).

Edit: For clarity - the cutscenes in ME2

Yes, in ME2 some scenes mix engine-rendered and pre-rendered imagery.

But what I've seen so far for ME3 hasn't looked pre-rendered (obviously not counting the Big Ben sniper trailer). We'll see what happens.

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 02 août 2011 - 07:22 .


#31
Guest_Arcian_*

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CBKeffer wrote...

Very interesting, and seeing as how I do 3d modeling and animation (granted for it's for industrial applications, but that just changes the product, not the process) I would love to see how this actually works and how/if it would change the way we do animations. BTW the link is getting passed around the office now, thanks for posting it :)

No problem, man, it was my pleasure!

#32
darknoon5

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Arcian wrote...

CBKeffer wrote...

Very interesting, and seeing as how I do 3d modeling and animation (granted for it's for industrial applications, but that just changes the product, not the process) I would love to see how this actually works and how/if it would change the way we do animations. BTW the link is getting passed around the office now, thanks for posting it :)

No problem, man, it was my pleasure!

Off topic, but to re-post what I said on another forum:

Wait, nobody suspects this might be dodgy? You know, besides the fact
they've shown no animation, refused to let anybody actually try out a
tech demo, and haven't explained how this works (unless I missed
something-they said "it uses atoms" but they didn't say how that takes
less processing power)?



It looks cool, but I'd be shocked if you couldn't create the same effect
on a super computer without "REAL atoms" or whatever it is they're
using. Until I see this tech applied and used by somebody outside the
company on something besides a super computer I'm going to take this
with a pinch of salt.



This company is only 2 years old. Aren't any of you surprised that much
older, more renowned tech firms haven't developed similar,
ground-breaking technology?

Euclideon was the recipient of the largest commercialisation grant awarded by the Australian Federal Government in 2010.[4]

-Wikipedia

Seems to me this is a cry for funding.


I'll summarize what the video says:

[*]Polygons are bad and have a limit
[*]Atoms are good but have a much smaller limit
[*]We found a way to have unlimited atoms[/list]
Does that at all compel you to believe them? Now, replace this arguement with the following:

[*]Nuclear fission is bad but we can use it with our tech
[*]Nuclear fusion is good but we can't use it with our tech
[*]I, as CEO of a 2 year old nuclear research company, can make nuclear fusion work[/list]
If it's real I'll be excited, but even so graphics don't make a game and
all that, and I resent his claims that games don't look realistic, as
in my opninion high-quality games are realistic enoguh to stay immersed
in. Perhaps as somebody without detailed knowledge of graphics and what
not I'm wrong. Still, I don't mean to be a pessimist. I would love to
see a Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls or Halo title with these graphics
(albeit with better lighting!), but I'm not holding my breath. Usually
people on gaming forums seem cycnical; I'm suprirsed you all accept that
this is geniune when there is no explanation of how this doesn't suffer
from drawbacks and no real proof that this will work on anything short
of a supercomputer.

Edit: Creator of minecraft, Notch, agrees with me,
though for more indepth and technical reasons. If you can't be bothered
to read it, he says the tech is real but isn't new and has several
drawbacks they didn't mention.

tl;dr: The tech is real but doesn't really animate, isn't new and still requires a lot of processing power.
---

Now, on topic, that video was cool, I didn't realize Bioware had actually really done much to the graphics besides some crisper textures on Shepard's armour.

Modifié par darknoon5, 02 août 2011 - 05:58 .


#33
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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The graphical improvements of ME3 from ME2 were obvious imo.

#34
Kasai666

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Arcian wrote...

That's cool.

Now, for ME4, let's implement this.

I f***ing love the future.

Oh god, yes please. 

#35
darknoon5

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^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P

Modifié par darknoon5, 02 août 2011 - 06:07 .


#36
Brenon Holmes

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darknoon5 wrote...

^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voxel ++

#37
darknoon5

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Brenon Holmes wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voxel ++

Yes, I know what  a Voxel is. How is that relevant?

This is pretty off topic, but this is also neat graphic stuff.

Modifié par darknoon5, 02 août 2011 - 06:21 .


#38
Guest_Arcian_*

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darknoon5 wrote...

^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P

A man can dream, can't he?

#39
Brenon Holmes

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darknoon5 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voxel ++

Yes, I know what  a Voxel is. How is that relevant?


Err... that wasn't meant to be a corrective statement, simply an informative link for others.

From a quick glance, it looks like a slightly better voxel-ish solution to me with what sounds like a nifty database algorithm.

Modifié par Brenon Holmes, 02 août 2011 - 06:23 .


#40
darknoon5

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Arcian wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P

A man can dream, can't he?

Yeah, I thought the vid was pretty epic till I realized the guy didn't say how it worked, just that it did.

Still, more cool graphic stuff each year. more relevant to ME3 seeing as it uses the unreal 3(.5) engine.

www.youtube.com/watch

Brenon Holmes wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voxel ++

Yes, I know what  a Voxel is. How is that relevant?


Err...
that wasn't meant to be a corrective statement, simply an informative
link for others. From a quick glance, it looks like a slightly better
voxel-ish solution to me with what sounds like a nifty database
algorithm.

Ah ok, apologies, I didn't mean to be confrontational.

Modifié par darknoon5, 02 août 2011 - 06:23 .


#41
Brenon Holmes

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No worries, it's the internet... tone is fairly difficult to extract from text. :happy:

#42
silentassassin264

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Brenon Holmes wrote...

No worries, it's the internet... tone is fairly difficult to extract from text. :happy:

I think we should all post like we are Elcor.

Sarcastically, that would be the greatest idea ever.

#43
Guest_Arcian_*

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silentassassin264 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

No worries, it's the internet... tone is fairly difficult to extract from text. :happy:

I think we should all post like we are Elcor.

Sarcastically, that would be the greatest idea ever.

WIth barely contained disgust, Yes, I agree.

#44
MrChowderClam

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 lol the "infinite detail" video.
There are a couple of reasons why I think it's a problem that doesn't exist (for now).

1) The main drawbacks with the graphics (or rather, presentation) in todays games is NOT polygon detail. In fact, with some nice hacks that involve baking high poly detail into normal/bump maps, you can have the appearance of an extremely high-poly object without actually having the object be high-poly. For example:

Posted Image

Only has about 5k polygons, but it has the detail of a 2M poly model baked in to the textures. The only real edge case here is at the borders of the character (i.e. the creases on the head don't look high-poly), but this is less noticeable when the model is moving around. Even then, if you wanted it to be smooth you could just tessellate the geometry on newer dx11 hardware.

2) So you have unlimited detail. Great. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to write a physics engine that moves all of that unlimited detail to respond to user input in real time? How will you texture it? I doubt you're going to be able to UV map it easily. How will animation systems and skeletons work with it? They say they have animation, but is it any good? 

3) "Companies are trying to spend billions of dollars on increasing their polygon count." WRONG. There is more to a game than how many polygons you can have. In fact, there is more to game graphics than how many polygons you can draw at one time. There are bigger problems in things like:
  • Light transport (specifically occlusion, realtime reflections, indirect lighting/global illumination)
  • Transparency (per-pixel lighting does not support true trancparency natievly)
  • Animation (your game can look like real life, but if the environment and characters don't move convincingly then the visual fidelity is a moot point).

So in short, it's interesting stuff, and the technology behind it is real, but there are other (arguably) more important things to worry about.

And on topic:

ME3's motion blur finally looks good - the motion blur in ME2 was really undersampled and it wasn't very smooth. The facial textures on sheploo also look amazing.

#45
Pulletlamer

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@darknoon5

Interesting thoughts on the subject, certainly. it's true they didn't say how it worked but they said they found a way to have unlimited atoms or whatever that is, showing a real video about it.

And I don't really think a small company could afford a supercomputer, too.

EDIT: What I mean is that it could actually run on a computer fairly well like in the video scenario, although having animations and the like can be harder.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 02 août 2011 - 06:43 .


#46
elitecom

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silentassassin264 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

No worries, it's the internet... tone is fairly difficult to extract from text. :happy:

I think we should all post like we are Elcor.

Sarcastically, that would be the greatest idea ever.


Hey that's not a bad idea, I'll start doing that when I'm writting stuff with a tone that is difficult to understand.

#47
squidney2k1

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After seeing the unexplained, weak optimization of Dx11 in Dragon Age 2, I'm not to excited about Dx11 in ME3. DA2's Dx11 performance was incredibly demanding for something that offered very little, compared to other Dx11 games.

#48
Kasai666

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darknoon5 wrote...

^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P

I did, but it's nice to dream. 

#49
CBKeffer

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darknoon5 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P

A man can dream, can't he?

Yeah, I thought the vid was pretty epic till I realized the guy didn't say how it worked, just that it did.

Still, more cool graphic stuff each year. more relevant to ME3 seeing as it uses the unreal 3(.5) engine.

www.youtube.com/watch

Brenon Holmes wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voxel ++

Yes, I know what  a Voxel is. How is that relevant?


Err...
that wasn't meant to be a corrective statement, simply an informative
link for others. From a quick glance, it looks like a slightly better
voxel-ish solution to me with what sounds like a nifty database
algorithm.

Ah ok, apologies, I didn't mean to be confrontational.


Oh it's definitely shifty, that he dodges how it actually works, beyond stating the obvious that point cloud models are smoother and have higher resolution than our current models (which can still be boiled down to a collection of points, albeit much much fewer). But if the scene he showed is acutally made entirely of point cloud models, not prebaked, and he was using a standard comp to fly around like he was, it's still an interestig step forward in model generation. Do I think it's anywhere near ready for implimentation in a game? Heck no! TANSTAAFL applies to everything, so there's going to be a tradeoff of some sort with this as well, be it poly flow issues, extreme hardware requirements, or simply longer loading times. Immediately, I'm wondering if the tech could be applied to generate a super high res model from which somethings like displacement maps and such can be made, similar to how ZBrush is used currently, to make lower res models have the apearace of higher res ones.

Anyways, enough off topic, I too hadn't realized how much they had improved things in ME3, and seeing the vid in the OP just has me more excited to play it when it finally comes out.

#50
dreman9999

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darknoon5 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

^ Did you not read my post? There's even a tl;dr. :P


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voxel ++

Yes, I know what  a Voxel is. How is that relevant?

This is pretty off topic, but this is also neat graphic stuff.

It's what the youtube link is promising but actrively being used and real.