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[miskatonica]

a.k.a. a Malcolm Hawke thread, which I'm surprised isn't on here yet? Spoilers probably likely to abound about Legacy, obviously, so if you're leery of such things, you might want to scoot out of here.

We don't actually get much information about Malcolm Hawke except in bits and pieces, so I find it fun to speculate about all the details we don't know-- what he looks like, for one (which I would assume would be different depending on what Hawke looks like). If you're playing with default!Hawke, Leandra and Gamlen sport blue eyes, as does Carver and female!Hawke, while Bethany and male!Hawke have brown eyes. It's not exactly sound genetic principle, but we could probably guess that daddy!Hawke is where those brown eyes came from.

What else do we know about him? (Feel free to correct me on any of this!)

- He was a mage in the Circle of Kirkwall, but later escaped (presumably with Leandra?)
- The Gray Wardens threatened his wife and his (unborn?) child (Hawke) to make him restore the seals to Corypheus' prison. Up to that point, he hadn't ever resorted to blood magic, and apparently didn't even like the idea of it.
- If Hawke is a mage, Carver mentions in Legacy that Malcolm always paid him and Bethany more attention than Carver (despite the fact that, apparently, Malcolm DIDN'T want his children to be mages, and explicitly says so).
- He must have been quite *SOMETHING* Leandra to elope with him; she didn't sound like a girl who would be easy to impress. 
- Depending on the dialog options you choose at the end of Legacy, Leandra will mention that Hawke is 'just like your father' (his sense of humor if choosing the sarcastic option, or how he got angry) so I guess Malcolm was making good use of the dialog wheel in his time, too.

What's your headcanon on Malcolm Hawke and your Hawke's relationship with him? How do you picture him, based on the little tidbits we've been told of him? Lay it on me, I love hearing what people theorize about him.

Modifié par miskatonica, 02 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[MG800]

Whynot.
With my Wilhelm it was distant. Papa expected a lot from his eldest son, tried to raise him up to be his "heir" of sort - responsible, noble, strong, honorable mage. Will responded by cutting himself off his father, and was spending time trying to do what he wanted. Usually it meant reading books. This way, he got himself some peace and quiet - at least until Carver got home/stumble upon him, or start a fight with Bethany. 

So in Wilhelm's version of story, papa Hawke was pushy, strict, headstrong, self-righteous, strong, and had an ironic sense of humor.

Modifié par MG800, 02 août 2011 - 05:25 .

[Ineffable Igor]

Lol, just read the Legacy spoilers (haven't played yet) and as I suspected from hints in the trailer they aren't that different from the head!canon I came up with before we even heard about Legacy.  I played a bloodmage and in my head!canon this was because Hawke found a tome amongst Malcolm's possessions that simply explained blood magic techniques (like the guides you can buy in Awakening to unlock the specialization).  She wanted more power to protect herself from templars and when Malcolm found out he wasn't happy about it but decided to teach her how to use it responsibly instead of restricting her from it, a la Dexter.  Bonding ensues.

I hope we get more DLC that features Malcolm, the idea of him is just so cool.  I always pictued him as default M!Hawke, actually, maybe with a few tweaks here and there to differentiate.  Not very original, but whatever, I just love the M!Hawke design so much. 

[EmbryMay]

He'd have to have brown eyes - blue eyes are a recessive gene, so Leandra cannot possibly carry the gene for brown eyes - Bethany must get it from her father.

I think Legacy was a shock to learn he'd used blood magic, although he didn't approve - I'd always played Hawke as being pro-mage freedom but anti-blood magic and in my headcanon she got that from her father. I've always imagined him as similar to Anders actually - something of a revolutionary because of his escape, he was caught in Kirkwall because of using healing magic so they'd have that in common as well, although maybe not the sense of humour from Awakening. I always pictured him as strong and serious - a rock for Leandra, who seems rather weak to me, and when he died, Hawke had to step up and care for her family because her mother couldn't. I figured he'd have very strong principles which he passed onto his daughter.

SPOILER

The whole, Malcolm not wanting a child with magic thing really touched me, I was playing a mage Hawke and she was devastated to hear that, even as Carver was standing there go LOL he got that wrong then! Because I figured yes, he'd spend extra time with mage Hawke and Bethany rather then Carver, and therefore Carver might feel unwanted and unloved, hence his attitude. And then she found out Malcolm didn't want her to have magic, and that was a blow.

[Sepewrath]

Well of course he wouldn't, the situation for mages in Thedas is terrible, who would wish that on their child? He had to escape a prison he was in for the crime of being born, if his kid was a mage and he was ever found out, that would both be taken, at least if they weren't, he would get taken and the kid could stay with Leandra. I think mages of all people would appreciate the desire for their children to not being mages.

[ReallyRue]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well of course he wouldn't, the situation for mages in Thedas is terrible, who would wish that on their child? He had to escape a prison he was in for the crime of being born, if his kid was a mage and he was ever found out, that would both be taken, at least if they weren't, he would get taken and the kid could stay with Leandra. I think mages of all people would appreciate the desire for their children to not being mages.

Especially seeing as it was partly due to his magical ability that he and Leandra had to run off together and live secretly, and was also the reason the Wardens *spoiler* coerced him into helping with the Corypheus issue.

[Ryoufu]

Since Malcom helped the Wardens, Would it be possible for him to have joined them at some point?

[Sepewrath]

After they threatened the life of his wife and child, I doubt he would have ever joined the order.

[Ryoufu]

Sepewrath wrote...

After they threatened the life of his wife and child, I doubt he would have ever joined the order.

ah forgot about that detail:P

[naledgeborn]

Malcolm Hawke is a badass. His first name is Malcolm. He sounds like James Earl Jones. He worked with the Wardens. He was a Fereldan. He escaped the circle just to live a normal life (he didn't want to take over the world or enslave demons). He was an apostate mage that charmed a noble woman into falling in love with him. He spoke from beyond the grave. What else is there to say? The man must have had more charm in his pinky than his son/daugter has in their whole body.

[ReiSilver]

From my Hawke and the game I figured my Hawke's Malcom was a bit like serious, DA2, Anders with Sarcastic Hawke's wit and charm. I had always played my Hawke (sarcastic mage) who was very close with his father and idolised him a bit, before Legacy I had pictured Malcolm as the type to teach his children there's nothing wrong with magic, that's it's a wonderful gift even though they have to keep secret. Now I kind of have to change that to being something Hawke got on his own from "My dad=awesome, dad=magic therefore, magic=awesome" I imagine hearing him say he didn't want a child with magic was a big blow for my Hawke, because even if you can objectively step back and understand where he's coming from with that it could still feel like you were a disappointment. Pesky feelings not being objective and all.

I still want to know how Malcolm died!

[miskatonica]

EmbryMay wrote...

He'd have to have brown eyes - blue eyes are a recessive gene, so Leandra cannot possibly carry the gene for brown eyes - Bethany must get it from her father.

Way to forget high school biology, me!  You're absolutely right.

EmbryMay wrote...

SPOILER

The whole, Malcolm not wanting a child with magic thing really touched me, I was playing a mage Hawke and she was devastated to hear that, even as Carver was standing there go LOL he got that wrong then! Because I figured yes, he'd spend extra time with mage Hawke and Bethany rather then Carver, and therefore Carver might feel unwanted and unloved, hence his attitude. And then she found out Malcolm didn't want her to have magic, and that was a blow.

Yeah, going with a mage!Hawke really lets you feel how bitter Carver was about being the odd one out (The banter with rivaled!Carver in Legacy, oh man). I imagine it was worse being a twin and seeing someone theoretically his equal get special treatment like Bethany did on account of being a mage. I thought it was touching to learn about Malcolm as framed through the eyes of his children-- I can't recall the dialogue specifically, but if I remember right there's a part where Carver describes Malcolm teaching him how to fight? Though that might just be from another fan-discussion thread.

Needless to say, yes, my mage!Hawke was sort of quietly devastated. All those years and he had no idea!

naledgeborn wrote...

Malcolm Hawke is a badass. His first name is Malcolm. He sounds like James Earl Jones. He worked with the Wardens. He was a Fereldan. He escaped the circle just to live a normal life (he didn't want to take over the world or enslave demons). He was an apostate mage that charmed a noble woman into falling in love with him. He spoke from beyond the grave. What else is there to say? The man must have had more charm in his pinky than his son/daugter has in their whole body.

Ah, but is he Chuck Norris?  All kidding aside, I think setting up Malcolm Hawke as Badass Apostate incarnate is kind of nice. Lets you know where Hawke got it from. 

ReiSilver wrote...

I had always played my Hawke (sarcastic mage) who was very close with his father and idolised him a bit, before Legacy I had pictured Malcolm as the type to teach his children there's nothing wrong with magic, that's it's a wonderful gift even though they have to keep secret. Now I kind of have to change that to being something Hawke got on his own from "My dad=awesome, dad=magic therefore, magic=awesome" I imagine hearing him say he didn't want a child with magic was a big blow for my Hawke, because even if you can objectively step back and understand where he's coming from with that it could still feel like you were a disappointment.

I still want to know how Malcolm died!

re: having to change that: I wouldn't necessarily think! Judging by how little the kids seemed to know about him (then again, I imagine this is the equivalent of how kids in the future will react to what their parents used to post to Facebook) it's plausible that Malcolm WOULD have told his children magic was not something to fear, and never give them a clue that he hoped his kids wouldn't turn out to be mages.

re: dying. Malcolm died 3 years pre-game, and Bethany (apparently) comments that it's related to the Blight somehow (or was it phrased as 'at least he didn't have to deal with the Blight'? I can never remember. 

Also, as a point worth nothing: MALCOLM HAWKE WAS A MAGE (and however briefly,  a blood mage) WHO DIDN'T TURN OUT TO BE A CRAZY.  I found that so ... nice, I don't know why. Maybe it's because I had given up hope.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Malcolm Hawke is a badass. Once he starts speaking, you never want him to stop.

[leggywillow]

My issue with Papa Hawke right now is that we seem to have 2 very different stories about how he met Leandra and fled from Kirkwall.  Here are the codex entries we get about Malcolm Hawke from the Mage Item Pack DLC:

Malcolm Hawke ranged the breadth of the Free Marches as he ran from the templars who pursued him. He often posed as a mercenary, and his substantial martial skills easily secured him positions in different bands. On one assignment for the Crimson Oars he was sent to Kirkwall, the seat of templar power in the region. He had every intention of staying there briefly, but fate had other plans

In Kirkwall, Malcolm met Leandra and, despite all common sense, courted her. The few times Leandra managed to slip away from her family,Malcolm showed her a whole new world, something completely different from her cloistered existence. It was dangerous, forbidden, and she quickly fell madly in love with the dashing Malcolm Hawke. These stolen moments would end all too soon.

One day, while fighting the Carta on the docks, Malcolm used magic to save the life of the Crimson Oars' leader. The Kirkwall templars were alerted, but Malcolm wouldn't flee the city without seeing his love one last time. He devised to meet her at the masked ball for the visiting Orlesian Empress.  Disguised in Orlesian robes, Malcolm slipped past the templars to dance with his love. At the end of the night, Leandra would not hear his goodbyes and chanced at happiness rather than face her gray prearranged future. Malcolm and Leandra ran into the night and never looked back.

I am having a hard time reconciling this with the DLC information.  In Legacy, Leandra says that he wasn't always an apostate and that he was a junior enchanter at the Gallows.  She met him at a party when a bunch of the Circle mages were trotted out for entertainment.  This also seems more in keeping with Carver's personal quest in Act 1, where we find out that a templar helped Malcolm escape the Circle.

Anyone have any ideas as to why we have 2 vastly different stories for Malcolm Hawke?

Modifié par leggywillow, 03 août 2011 - 05:55 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

I think Legacy is the true past. The story from the DLC item packs sounds like a fairy tale, something Malcolm would tell his children as a bedtime story, or something.

[miskatonica]

I think CrimsonZephyr (at least, if we're reconciling both to the rest of the story instead of "DO YOU GUYS READ YOUR OWN LORE") has a point-- I would hope that an item pack's info would hold less weight than a DLC where the story of the Hawkes was a huge part of it.

The idea that Malcolm Hawke came up with this super-exaggerated version of how badass he was as a bedtime story is kind of hilarious, though. For all he's accomplished and been through, I always imagine him as a kind of goofy dad with his kids.

[jamesp81]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Malcolm Hawke is a badass. Once he starts speaking, you never want him to stop.

This here.  The incantations in legacy you can hear him make when he imprisoned the various demons just oozed of badassliness.  It's no wonder his eldest child turned out the way he/she did.

[CrimsonZephyr]

miskatonica wrote...

I think CrimsonZephyr (at least, if we're reconciling both to the rest of the story instead of "DO YOU GUYS READ YOUR OWN LORE") has a point-- I would hope that an item pack's info would hold less weight than a DLC where the story of the Hawkes was a huge part of it.

The idea that Malcolm Hawke came up with this super-exaggerated version of how badass he was as a bedtime story is kind of hilarious, though. For all he's accomplished and been through, I always imagine him as a kind of goofy dad with his kids.

Well, I mean, "the roguish apostate seducing the noblewoman at a masked ball" sounds better than "when I was a young man, Grey Wardens threatened to kill your mother if I didn't use blood magic to seal away a tainted magister!"

[ThatDancingTurian]

leggywillow wrote...

Anyone have any ideas as to why we have 2 vastly different stories for Malcolm Hawke?

Varric forgot what he said the first time and made something else up?

[Nhadalie]

I've always thought of Malcolm being very strong willed, and taking charge in most situations. He learned how to avoid the templars, taught his Bethany and Hawke to be responsible with magic, and all around did his best to raise all three of his children. When he died.. Well, they certainly must have had a difficult time continuing their lives. I'm pretty sure Hawke got shoved in to fill whatever responsibilities his/her father had, which would explain why his/her family all seems to leave things up to him/her.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Carver's issues are essentially mild child syndrome, except due to lacking magic rather than age.(I'm not sure if he's older than Bethany or not, off hand.) But due to how much training mages need, Carver may have felt left out. I really doubt he actually was, but being left out of it made him jealous obviously.

Bethany and Carver would've been about 8 years old when they permanently moved to Lothering. They wouldn't have really remembered what it was like being unable to stay anywhere for too long. So while logically, Carver may have understood that all the magic training, and learning to hide was necessary, he probably never really thought about it. He grew up in a fairly stable home. The only one who would really remember moving from place to place is Hawke, so only he/she would really have a clue what it was like to really live as an apostate.(This is all based off of the timeline provided by Legacy. According to Gamlen, Leandra left 25 years prior to the beginning of DA2. According to Legacy, she was pregnant with Hawke at the time. Therefore, Hawke is about 7 years older than Bethany and Carver, and he/she would've been about 15 when they finally settled in Lothering.)

Bethany may have had to hide in Lothering, but she obviously didn't have to worry that much about it.(She mentions in one of her banters that she used to hear stories from Leliana in the Chantry. Which is unlikely to ever be completely empty of Templars.) It was only when they moved back to Kirkwall in DA2 that Bethany really seems to realize how serious being a mage is. They were able to hide for 10 years in Lothering without ever being found out by the templars. Then they moved to Kirkwall, and everything they did was suddenly to protect them from the templars.

I'm pretty sure that Malcolm had all three of them train together throughout their lives. Carver learned swordsmanship, and Bethany and Hawke learned how to defend themselves against it. It's not mentioned in anything, but it would make a lot of sense.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 04 août 2011 - 04:49 .

[leggywillow]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Anyone have any ideas as to why we have 2 vastly different stories for Malcolm Hawke?

Varric forgot what he said the first time and made something else up?

::shakes fist:: VAAAARRRRRIICCCC!

I can maybe buy that the Mage Item Pack codex entries are part of some romanticized story that Malcolm made up for his children, since the whole "masquerade meeting and fleeing into the sunset together" thing is unbelievably sweet.  But Malcolm lying and saying he was a traveling mercenary instead of a junior enchanter?  Not really a story for the kids, y'know?

[ThatDancingTurian]

leggywillow wrote...

::shakes fist:: VAAAARRRRRIICCCC!

I can maybe buy that the Mage Item Pack codex entries are part of some romanticized story that Malcolm made up for his children, since the whole "masquerade meeting and fleeing into the sunset together" thing is unbelievably sweet.  But Malcolm lying and saying he was a traveling mercenary instead of a junior enchanter?  Not really a story for the kids, y'know?

That part was for Carver, obviously.

Li'l Carver: Needs more swords and fighting!
Malcolm: Fine, I was a... mercenary.
Li'l Carver: Awesome!

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 04 août 2011 - 06:54 .

[darkrose]

Anyone have theories on why, out of all the apostates in that crazy town, the Wardens decided that it had to be Malcolm Hawke?

As for my personal canon Hawke, since my Hawke looks kind of like Duncan with a less epic beard, I figure Malcom pretty much was a dead ringer for the late Warden-Commander.

[naledgeborn]

Hawke Sr. being a mercenary isn't a stretch. I think the timeline is messed up. I think he became a merc after he and Leandra ran away together. He had to put bread on the table without openly using magic. It would also be a profession where he could avoid suspicion from the Templars. And merc groups would jump at the chance of having an ace like a mage up their sleeve. And he did teach Carver how to fight didn't he? So yeah, after running from Kirkwall and before settling down in Lothering, Hawke Sr. was a mage mercenary.

[Sifr]

Do we actually know that Malcolm trained in the Kirkwall Circle?

Could it be possible that he was a Mercenary for a time after escaping from another Circle where he was a Junior Enchanter. This would explain why he was so vague about his life before he met Leandra and why his boots "The Long Trek" seemed so worn. From Anders' example, we know that Mages can travel a LONG way to try to escape their templar pursuers.

From what Tobrius told us in "Family History" , Maurevar Carver helped him escape Kirkwall. Could it be possible that Ser Maurevar Carver was the one who was alerted when Malcolm revealed his magical abilities when in Kirkwall?

It would add some weight to his comment "Rule is not served by caging the best of us." as the reason why he would let Malcolm remain an apostate.

I haven't gotten around to playing Legacy yet, does anyone know if its said one way or the other?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 04 août 2011 - 11:33 .