65 réponses à ce sujet

[mappam]

I started my rogue as a dual dagger and have now gone to archer. Which is the better choice?

Is there a way to reset your skills and stats?

Thanks for any feedback or tips on Rogue Build.

[blind black]

Ive used both but i enjoyed using an archer more. Use skills from the assassin tree and some from duelist.

[Ramante]

1. I prefer DW, because Varric and Sebastian are better archers (thanks to their personal talent trees). And (imo) the specializations seem to work better (or make more sense) for a dual-wielder than for an archer.

2. You can reset all your attribute and talent points -> Black Emporium, one of the shops sells 'Maker's Sighs potions', it lets you reallocate all your points. They cost.. 6 sovereigns IIRC.

Modifié par Ramante, 02 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[mr_afk]

it depends what you want to do.
archers are a lot 'safer' in that you can deal damage from afar without much risk to yourself. DW is a little more risky in that you have to get in amongst it.

damage-wise they are both great at single target dps. I personally would say that DW is more powerful due to a better set of abilities (DW tree is a lot better than the archery tree) and having less wastage in damage-dealing (faster attacks of lower damage meaning less almost dead enemies requiring an extra shot/time). But damage isn't all there is and survivability-wise I would have to go with archer, especially if you're new to rogues.

so it's hard to say which is the 'better' choice. they're both good when done right but DW leads to more 'exciting' gameplay - which can be either a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you see it. So if you like dealing consistant large numbers without receiving any damage yourself I would go archer and if you like dealing more rapid smaller numbers (and the occasional spike) I would go DW.

Go try out each maybe (assuming you have the black emporium) and decide on which fits your play-style better.

[mappam]

Thanks for the replies - I do have Black Emporium - but have not found the shop yet? I just loaded it and need to get to the town first. I didn't realize that there was an (object/spell) that allows you to do that - How Cool!

I can't wait to try this and see which I prefer! THANKS

[AreleX]

i prefer dw, it also gets better elemental weapons (nature and spirit vs fire and...fire)

maker's sigh potions from the black emporium let you respec your char

check my signature for dw rogue guide

under no circumstances should you listen to anything mr afk says

he is terrible

[AreleX]

i just want to make it known that i typed that reply 2-3 hours ago (before mr afk posted) and forgot all about it

he knows

[atheelogos]

Go dw. Archer can be fun, but you'll never be as good at it as Varric and Sebastian. DW is just more fun imo. With that said I haven't played a high level archer yet, but I plan to do so soon. Hopefully before school starts.

[Sabotin]

I'd suggest a dw duelist/shadow. Incredibly fun.

You know, actually you don't have to entirely focus on one aspect of a rogue, as both have just one tree that's specific and work almost equaly well with both weapons.

[mr_afk]

lol

[mcsupersport]

I just finished an Archer(normal difficulty), and no I am not a really good player of the game, but for me I prefer Archer right now. For me being at a distance let me watch over the Battlefield a bit better, because when I am up close with warrior/rogue, I can't keep up as well with the flow of combat. Being an archer let me still participate but not get lost in killing the guy in front of me.

I played a Shadow(mostly maxed), Assassin(mostly maxed), and I think at the end with a 27 level archer I had only two points in bow skills, pinning shot and maybe explosive shot. Everything else was about assassinate and ghosting to escape damage and get the criticals from stealth. To me it was an incredibly fun and effective character, especially once I added the Idol rune to the rogue dlc bow that scales, and my rogue became an auto-turret of death.

[ripstrawberry]

"Go dw. Archer can be fun, but you'll never be as good at it as Varric and Sebastian. DW is just more fun imo. With that said I haven't played a high level archer yet, but I plan to do so soon. Hopefully before school starts. "

Hawke will be a better archer than sebastian and varric. If it doesn't feel that way you're doing it wrong. Hello Disorienting criticals? Best CCC inducer in the game and you get +50% crit dmg to boot. hello +50% crit dmg from pinpoint precision. Decoy is way better than guardian angel. Pretty much everything in the assassin tree? Hello Hawke usually gets the bonus points from tomes/elixirs? Hawke has the better bows and armors? Anyways back on topic...

I would point you to mr. afk's post. At higher levels, archers are affected more by the dmg cap so dmg wise DW is slightly better. and they do have lacerate, twin fangs and the superior attack speed. However also do take into account that while archers fire slower and are limited to physical and fire, archers don't have to waste time moving as much as DWs. They also have bigger numbers so you can take grunts out in one-shot at higher levels while Dws have to move around and waste a few flicks. Since they're also safer, you're also less likely to waste time downing a restoration potion. Of course vs mobs archer is superior due to bursting arrow. The +x% elemental dmg is much easier and larger for fire as well compared to spirit and nature. Soloing wise on nightmare, i've found the archer to have an easier time especially against the high dragon wherein the archer can still hit him while he's on his perch while the DW is stuck downstairs running away from fireballs. Try both out and see which you're comfy with really. i like both but I prefer archers.

[raisttelnise]

Right now I am building an archer (after having prenerfed Arelex's dw rogue, berserk warrior and 3 mages) and after the nerfes it really comes out good. Playing no tank/no pause style with no hands on your companions, archer can be a beast. Both all ranged team is cool (Bethany, Anders Merril) or what I am using now to capitalize all CCCs - Fenris, Bethany, Anders (i love Merril but dual haste... it is just an overkill)

Don't listen to people saying varric and sebastian are better. They might be close or the same but definitly not better (you compensate with your Assassin/Shadow trees).

Also duelist for an archer is a big no no - Vendetta the most awsome teleport and capitalize stagger it is pretty useless for archer. The idea of this talent was - hey I'm a DW rogue and that mage/assassin/elite so far... bam I'm there. As archer you just aim him, stun with pinning shot, get brittle on him from any of your mages (or hell even no brittle) assassinate and maybe 1-2 more arrows and he is gone. And you definitly do not want to get close to him.

I have no idea why people got stuck in a DW mindset saying abilities does not make sense for an archer. All of them are designed to make sense for daggers and for bow. Assassinate, disorienting crits, blindslide all of that works for archer.

Use shadow with disorienting criticals, stay obscured for 100% time of any fight (stealth, decoy, passive, bursting arrow) to get insane dmg with basic attacks (I am not there yet, lvl 9 now but this is the plan).

Comparing it to playing DW rogue - it's totally different playstyle (closer to a mage, when dw rogue is closer to a warrior) but is really fun and can be effiecent.

Modifié par raisttelnise, 03 août 2011 - 08:28 .

[Ser-Michael]

Ramante wrote...

1. I prefer DW, because Varric and Sebastian are better archers (thanks to their personal talent trees). And (imo) the specializations seem to work better (or make more sense) for a dual-wielder than for an archer.

2. You can reset all your attribute and talent points -> Black Emporium, one of the shops sells 'Maker's Sighs potions', it lets you reallocate all your points. They cost.. 6 sovereigns IIRC.

A Maker's sigh potion costs about 1 sovereigns... Not 6.

[mappam]

WOW - very interesting!

I have noticed that when I am "using" archer and mob gets close I start to use stab or dual? Is this because I have points in DW??

Thank you all so much - I just got the Black Emporium and will "play" with respec to see which build I like.

So much to fiddle with - from weapon to companions - FUN!!!

Thanks for the input and suggestions - I really appreciate it.

[Robhuzz]

Archers start using a dagger when enemies get close. BW thought it silly an archer would just keep shooting arrows at melee range. Sebastian does this too. Varric starts stabbing and hitting people with his crossbow and delivers an occasional kick when enemies are in melee range.


I've played both DW and Archer rogue. Both have their strong points. With dual wield the first few levels are harder because your defence score is too low to really help out and the low health means you can die really quickly while at higher levels it's possible to get over 100% critical hit chance and massive critical damage. Duelist and dual wield talents are very useful to take care of annoying blood mages or arcane horrors using powerful aoe attacks (vendetta followed by twin fangs = win)

With archers you can do a lot of damage while staying at a distance. Getting good bows early seems to be problematic however. Though after thinking about it, good daggers are also rare early in the game. Both builds are nice when done right. I'd say go with the fight style you prefer.

[miltos33]

Although I used to be a DW fan in DAO I now prefer Archer in DA2. Shadow and Subterfuge can make you untouchable while you safely deal tons of damage.

[ClassyUnicorn]

unrelated question
On a DW rogue Is it worth it to put a few points into magic and use +mag/will gear to meet the armour requirements for the robes of unblemished cleanliness and wield low blade and Beraht's Revenge or are their better options for weapon and armour?

[mr_afk]

depends. are you playing on nightmare?
if so you'll have to switch weapons every now and then which somewhat reduces the appeal.

As far as I know, DW rogues only have nature and spirit daggers. This means that you'll be sacrificing a few attribute points (~9 minimum) and a fair amount of critical modifiers solely for a +24% buff to your nature set- which you won't even be using all the time.

If you were to switch to a fire bow (and maybe invest in the ring of the ferryman) when facing immunities the robes could be more worth it. Even still, there aren't many act 3 enemies with nature vulnerabilities (with the slight exception of legacy).

The other options are spirit and physical. Since the spirit gear is so crummy you probably can just set it up the usual way (maximising crit-damage) and switch between all three sets depending on elemental weaknesses.

[ripstrawberry]

"Archers start using a dagger when enemies get close. BW thought it silly an archer would just keep shooting arrows at melee range. Sebastian does this too. Varric starts stabbing and hitting people with his crossbow and delivers an occasional kick when enemies are in melee range."

Take note that this dagger is the basic dagger all rogues come equipped w/ if you remove it's currently equipped weapons so it's base dmg is low. It's physical element so it's an alternative for those fire archers (hood's or jackal) who are lazy to switch to a physical bow (like absolution) when they encounter fire-immune enemies on nightmare. They could just simply close distance against the fire-immune enemy auto-attack it w/ the crappy dagger to death. speed helps in this regard.

"I've played both DW and Archer rogue. Both have their strong points. With dual wield the first few levels are harder because your defence score is too low to really help out and the low health means you can die really quickly while at higher levels it's possible to get over 100% critical hit chance and massive critical damage. Duelist and dual wield talents are very useful to take care of annoying blood mages or arcane horrors using powerful aoe attacks (vendetta followed by twin fangs = win)"

While this is true take note archers can also achieve 100% crit chance and massive critical dmg. In fact, if there was no dmg cap, archers have higher crit dmg than DW. Archers can also easily take care of annoying enemy ranged units by simply attacking them, assasinating them, pinning shotting them or archer's lancing them form a distance. They are not limited to vendettea nor have to take the crappy duelist spec. Archers too have low defence (at the start) and health like DW.

"With archers you can do a lot of damage while staying at a distance. Getting good bows early seems to be problematic however. Though after thinking about it, good daggers are also rare early in the game. Both builds are nice when done right. I'd say go with the fight style you prefer."

If you have the black emporium or the rogue item pack, good bows and daggers are available early.

"Although I used to be a DW fan in DAO I now prefer Archer in DA2. Shadow and Subterfuge can make you untouchable while you safely deal tons of damage."

Ditto. DAO=DW. DAA=ARC (accuracy was overpowered). DA2=ARC.

"On a DW rogue Is it worth it to put a few points into magic and use +mag/will gear to meet the armour requirements for the robes of unblemished cleanliness and wield low blade and Beraht's Revenge or are their better options for weapon and armour?"

Yes. This is the best weapon config for DWs. If you play on nightmare, have a 2nd dagger set available so you can handle nature immune enemies. You can go spirit w/ maker's kiss and shadow claw or physical w/ finesse (or hawke's key if you have legacy) and jarvia's shank. I would say if you have hawke's key, physical is the better alternate except against spirit-weak enemies.

[ripstrawberry]

"if so you'll have to switch weapons every now and then which somewhat reduces the appeal."

Yeah I wish they had the weapon swap button back from origins. It's annoying to pause and switch.

"As far as I know, DW rogues only have nature and spirit daggers. This means that you'll be sacrificing a few attribute points (~9 minimum) and a fair amount of critical modifiers solely for a +24% buff to your nature set- which you won't even be using all the time."

It's not 9. I got away with just 7 points into mag, 8 without legacy. Here they are:

amulet: uzara's tooth or something similar
belt: enchanted silverite chain belt
ring: ring of the ferryman and twisted steel ring (acquired late in legacy for +2 mag bonus).
boots: stealth boots
chest: black fox jerkin w/ rune of valiance
helm: circlet of the dreamer
-----
+15 and you have a base of 10. You need 32 for the robe so that's just 7 left.

You can also get other +% nature dmg generic gear from shops if you're lucky. mr_afk can you confirm that +x%nature dmg would affect nature rune dmg and/or deathroot toxing dmg? I think it does.

[mr_afk]

yeah, the twisted ring changes things a little. what level does it change to +2? my level ~24 mage still only got +1 and if it's much later there's not much point waiting for it.

also I think you're forgetting that the circlet of the dreamer has a magic requirement of 30. this means that you only have +11 or +12 to reach 30 (from 10). That's ~9 points.

i'm not too sure that +%nature affects runes or poisons. I can't be bothered checking either, it's such a minuscule amount in the grand scheme of things. You'ld be better off putting runes of devastation and the primeval lyrium rune into them if you decided to focus on nature.


The dagger that archers use at close range is actually based on the bow base damage. It does less damage but attacks faster such that there is no dps difference. So basically the type of damage and amount of damage depends on the bow. So against fire immune enemies getting in close range does nothing- you still have to switch weapons.
I don't think it's actually possible to kill an enemy with your base daggers on nightmare (hence immunities). They have like 5 base damage if I remember correctly.

[ripstrawberry]

"yeah, the twisted ring changes things a little. what level does it change to +2? my level ~24 mage still only got +1 and if it's much later there's not much point waiting for it."

I don't know exactly. Was playing my level 50 WS warrior. Apparently others got a +2 mag version as well according to theendcomes legacy items post in the gameplay forum.

"also I think you're forgetting that the circlet of the dreamer has a magic requirement of 30. this means that you only have +11 or +12 to reach 30 (from 10). That's ~9 points."

No I didn't forget that. All you have to do to circumvent that is have headgear equipped that gives +1 to mag so either the ponderer (you'll be able to equip this along the way) or the cap of the antivan kings (?) . With that you'll reach 30 mag. Then equip circlet of the dreamer. You'll only get 32 instead of 33 because when you de-equip cap of the antivan king/ponderer you lose +1 mag.

"i'm not too sure that +%nature affects runes or poisons. I can't be bothered checking either, it's such a minuscule amount in the grand scheme of things. You'ld be better off putting runes of devastation and the primeval lyrium rune into them if you decided to focus on nature."

True. I was just curious. Speaking of runes of devastation, as far as I know, only one works for DW rogues right? To put another in the other dagger would be a waste correct? This is what got me thinking of +nature dmg runes. Assuming +100% crit chance already, the low blade has 2 rune slots while beraht's revenge has 1. So you have 3 rune slots to play with. 1 primeval lyrium rune and 1 devastation rune takes up 2 slots. So what's best for the 3rd slot to optimize dps? I was thinking it's a toss up between +nature dmg (if +x% nature dmg gear affected it) or + spirit dmg (would deal more than the listed dmg due to decreased dmg res). Any thoughts?

"The dagger that archers use at close range is actually based on the bow base damage. It does less damage but attacks faster such that there is no dps difference. So basically the type of damage and amount of damage depends on the bow. So against fire immune enemies getting in close range does nothing- you still have to switch weapons."

Hmm... I didn't observe it dealing orange dmg before. I will re-test and confirm. Thanks. I always seemed to see white dmg for it while I was wielding jackal/hood and low dmg so I assumed it was your base daggers. I remember killing grunts with it on nightmare (I did have high crit dmg mods) that got too close but I don't remember if they were fire immune so really have to re-test.

[PinkShoes]

Honnestly both are pretty good. Like when i first played dual daggers and was gunna fight the Arishock on hard i was like oh f*ck this is gunna invole a whole lot of kiting. But honnestly, took him down in 30 seconds because of assassin and shadow. I could probably do the same with archer though. Archer has a real nice punch to it that it didnt have in DAO and its a looot more fun to play now. I usual favor archer but i still really enjoy daggers. So really i think its just up to you how to feel. I usually like being long ranged thats why i favor the mage and archer but thats me.

[NErWOnek]

Go dw. Archer can be fun, but you'll never be as good at it as Varric and Sebastian.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/NEuRO-1986/Screenshot1.png
this battle with me,varric and merrill + bethany was a cakewalk on nightmare. I could just snipe him from a mile away. My best crit was around 7000 damage ->
1.Mark of Doom (-50% dmg resist)
2.Blood Feud (armor reduced to 0, damage resistance reduced to 0%)
[that gives a clean +50% damage hit bypassing all damage resists and armor)
3.Overkill (450% base damage + 370% physical damage)
that would be
(450%+370%)*150% for mr boss...

Try scoring a hit like that and then around 3 hits for 3k on a dagger, I dare You ]:>

http://img.photobuck...Screenshot1.png