65 réponses à ce sujet

[ripstrawberry]

@mr_afk

Yes you're right the dagger attack an archer uses copies the element of the bow equipped. I must be going blind. XD Sorry for talking outta my ass on that one. I'm guessing the dmg per hit is low because the bow base dmg is halved or converted to the base dmg of a dagger of equal level? I wonder if rune like primeval lyrium rune and enhancement effects like +crit dmg transfer over...

Hmm... thoughts?

[Rahelron]

Archer all the time. With a dagger rogue @ nightmare level you are alaways with your ass on the floor. The enemies knock you down all the time.

I didn't find the Carta dagger helpful at all with that (the one with the "you can't be knocked down" ability) . Don't know why, it doesn't work for me. It also comes very late in the game so you have to bite the dust a lot until you find it.

With an archer you have access to less abilities that deal a lot of damage, but you have the advantage of being able to shoot from a distance. This allows you to switch targets in no time and also to kill enemies before they can reach you. @ Nightmare level it's a lot of fun and now that bethany has the Force Mage specialization you can build a party with her, you, anders and varric. It's a death machine. You block all the enemies with gravitic ring or the gliph of paralisys and then go nuts with all the area spells: firestorm, rain of arrows and stuff like that. You can also freeze them then kill everyone with the archer abilities that affect brittle targets (archer's lance and bursting arrow. They are both AOE).

As far as critics go I reached 20 K damage on normal enemies and something like 7 K on bosses with assassination.

Here's the trick;
Mark of doom on the enemy
Chameleon's breath on you (to trigger disorienting criticals)
Perform Assassinate (with overkill)

You can improve the damage even more if you manage to freeze the enemy and to cast death hex on him, but I never shot anything with all these debuffs active at the same time.

My stats @ level 27 (after Legacy):
Crit chance: 95% (with valiant aura on)
Crit damage: +291%

Modifié par Rahelron, 05 août 2011 - 08:37 .

[AreleX]

none of this is true

[Loc'n'lol]

Both are fun and effective, whatever suits your taste. If unsure, play both. I briefly tried speccing in both on the same character but it didn't cut it for me however.

[Rahelron]

AreleX wrote...

none of this is true

Copy and paste these in your browser miscreant:

General Stats: http://img217.images.../3047/003qc.jpg
Assassinate stats: http://img708.images...5995/004tcg.jpg
Equipment (note no DLC items): http://img198.images...3197/002rav.jpg
Skill Tree: http://img221.images...9/001kdepoh.jpg

And Remember: 291% doesn't include the +25% granted by disorienting criticals, because it triggers only when you are obscured. So the real percentage is 316%

In this case I didn't have Precision activated, because I prefer to use Speed. With that talent on my crit chance would have been 100%.

Before you ask: my character is level 27 because the screenshot was taken after the legacy DLC. I didn't use the experience bug.

My build is not maximized! I had a problem unlocking the black emporium DLC, so I didn't use any item or any tome that is sold there. This means less stat points and less talents. Without the emporium I didn't have the possibility to use the respec potions too, that's why I still have Miasmic Flask in my final build.

With the black emporium I would have been able to reach harmony in the Specialist tree, maybe even to upgrade speed. It would have been awesome.

And yes, I'm Italian

Modifié par Rahelron, 05 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[AreleX]

i don't care about your numbers, your entire reasoning behind choosing archery can be traced back to a statement borne of ignorance, you bloody fool. normally, i don't care if the pigheaded and ignorant remain so, but if someone else is going to be spending (and wasting) their likely limited gaming time going on false statements, i'm going to step in.

the patch reduced the force on enemy attacks by such a margin that it's almost wholly insignificant, making your entire argument irrelevant. elite enemies will not be knockback chaining you, and normal enemies will not be stunlocking you.

pre-patch, you just needed to buy the etched ring of the twins. knockBACK was an issue without it, since trash enemies could interrupt your attacks and stunlock you. knockDOWN should not have been, since the elites that could do it should be brittle and dead before they have a chance to do it.

stop wasting my time and get off my forums.

[Rahelron]

Hey man, it's just a game. Chillout.

I admit that my last gaming sassion in the main campaign was before the last patch, so my informations were old. But you also admitted that what I was saying was a real problem before that patch, so much of a problem that the developers fixed it. I just mixed up knockback and knockdown, sorry about that.

I just think that saying: "Hey man, you were right before the last patch, but the problem was fixed" would have been better.

PS: the forum is not yours. You just spend more time than others writing guides.

Modifié par Rahelron, 05 août 2011 - 08:57 .

[AreleX]

i'm perfectly calm, friend. i'm just being honest, and it being a game doesn't make you any less wrong. it's something people are going to be spending 30+ hours of their lives doing, and i don't want them doing it with bad information.

i was perfectly content with leaving my statement as it was, but you had to say something. if you don't know what you're talking about, a. ask questions so you can understand, or b. don't talk at all.

miscreant is a funny word, though.

[mr_afk]

lol, 'miscreant'.

anyway, in addition to making knockback non-existant, the last patch also put a damage cap on enemies. This means that slower larger damages will hit that cap harder (i.e. 'wasted damage') and faster smaller damages will be better. This was discussed in a previous post (somewhere on pg 1 but I can't be bothered checking) but basically, the idea that archers deal as much or more damage than DW doesn't really work anymore.

DW is a lot better damage-wise in terms of dps and spike damage. The only minor difference where archery could be superior is against fire weaknesses (archery has two good fire bows) and maybe against annoying aoe attack enemies (e.g. some of the dragons). Survivability arguably favours archery, but if you know what you're doing with a shadow (e.g. stealth and decoy) you shouldn't be struggling with threat-management/getting injured either way. I actually prefer soloing with a DW because decoys seem to be more effective when used close up.

Just to clarify, spike damage-wise a DW gets two additional spike damage abilities from their tree (explosive strike and twin fangs) and a stack of other overpowered abilities (lacerate) whereas archers get pinning shot (not really much of a 'spike'), archer's lance (unwieldy as hell) and other semi-useless aoes.

Though if you actually managed to get 20000 damage on your auto attacks I'll quickly jump off the DW bandwagon and play as an archer
If I remember correctly, a min-maxed archer (with ~+48% fire damage and 100% crit chance/~300%+ crit damage) deals ~500 damage normally and up to ~2000+ on fire weaknesses. That's autoattacks, so an assassinate CCC would deal considerably more (e.g. the pre-patch 320 K damage thendcomes dealt against hybris.) Good luck getting anything close to that post-patch though. haha

A min-maxed rogue will deal ~300-500 damage on each attack, potentially higher against elemental weaknesses. Due to the much faster attack speed this is a lot more than archers. Also, each spike damage talent will usually hit the cap/one-shot the enemy. This is due to each dagger been viewed seperately and thus allowing the DW to hit a ~80% cap instead of 40%. Lacerate is also good at getting around caps- dealing double your damage but in smaller ticks that get around dealing too much damage at once.
Basically, DW is awesome. hahaha

p.s. You mean you didn't know that these forums belong to Arelex?!


@ripstrawberry - all the stats transfer over because it's still the same weapon. It only has a faster attack rate and a suitably reduced damage. This is actually not as good for an archer because normal auto-attacks can interrupt enemies to a degree. The smaller faster dagger attacks don't deal as much force and the enemies are free to attack the archer. THis means that it's usually better to run away and shoot a few more arrows if you get mobbed (though against one or two I just dagger them to death).

Modifié par mr_afk, 06 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[mappam]

Something I am still missing =

When playing an archer with points in DW - which daggers are used when mob gets close for hand-to-hand or close up fighting? And is it worth putting points in the DW skills if playing as an archer?

Daggers - in the opening movie the rogue uses a kind of "half-moon" blade (senior moment and can't remember the name). Are these type "daggers" available at any time in DA2?

Thanks I find it very interesting that daggers vs bow is split between players.

[Ramante]

mappam wrote...

Something I am still missing =

When playing an archer with points in DW - which daggers are used when mob gets close for hand-to-hand or close up fighting? And is it worth putting points in the DW skills if playing as an archer?

It isn't a dagger you can equip, it's the dagger Hawke gets when (s)he has no weapon equipped. It gives low physical damage with each hit. No reason to put points in DW skills if you are never unequipping your bow.

mappam wrote...
Daggers - in the opening movie the rogue uses a kind of "half-moon" blade (senior moment and can't remember the name). Are these type "daggers" available at any time in DA2?

Thanks I find it very interesting that daggers vs bow is split between players.

There is only one dagger that looks like that in the game, it's the dagger Finesse you get from Zevran (assuming he was still alive in your import) after finishing his quest in Act 3. There is also a mod (if you're on pc) that switches the appearances of all daggers (or only certain high-level daggers) to the half-moon dagger.

[mr_afk]

you use a special archer dagger and throw some kicks into the mix.
This based solely on your bow in terms of base damage, type of damage and any other modifiers which the bow may have.

You don't use the DW skills. The emphasis here is on dual wield. You're not dual wielding when you use a bow - even in close range it's still a single dagger.
So if you are planning on strictly using bows there's no point putting points into DW.

and Ramante. It's not the same daggers with no weapons equipped. It has the base damage calculated from the bow's base damage- so the damage it deals is of the same element and dps. Keep in mind that dagger attacks are faster. 


Interestingly, a DW shadow can easily switch to bows and remain effective while an archer can't switch to DW and be effective. This is because the DW talents are almost necessary in order to be a good DW while archery talents are only mildly useful- auto attacks and spec abilities are all you really need.

It makes sense that there's a difference in opinion regarding DW vs Archery. They are completely different play-styles. That's not to say that either are correct in their opinion. Because better is completely subjective term. Besides facts (e.g. DW does more dps/spike damage in general), which is 'better' as in more fun to play will depend solely on that person.

My very first playthrough was with an archer and I remember been very excited about the sensation of each shot- the solid vibration of a crit coupled with the explosions/body parts was quite an....invigorating feel. But with both my solo DW playthrough and mucking around with a party DW I have to say the adrenaline of rushing around field slicing up enemies at preternatural speeds is quite exhilarating- and I would say much more preferable to the relatively docile shooting things with arrows. Now say you were to do a pause-play approach instead of no-pause (like me) then you wouldn't feel that same rush and maybe a more tactical microing approach would work better with archers (as targeting is a **** on xbox).


Anyhow, there's only one dagger with the same model of the introduction daggers. That's finesse which you'll get during act 3 from zevran. There are other similar looking daggers (e.g. spider's heart etc) but the general rule is that the dalish daggers have that extra spike thing on the bottom- so look for those.

Modifié par mr_afk, 06 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[dragonfire100]

mappam wrote...

I started my rogue as a dual dagger and have now gone to archer. Which is the better choice?

Is there a way to reset your skills and stats?

Thanks for any feedback or tips on Rogue Build.

Go vwith DW cuz you can kill people faster.

[SuicidalBaby]

One trick I have found is that the Unending Chain +crit bonus will carry over if you switch from DW to Bow mid fight. like in the high dragon encounter.

oh yeah...

for the ownage about to commence.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 11 août 2011 - 12:12 .

[C Trayne]

mappam wrote...
Daggers - in the opening movie the rogue uses a kind of "half-moon" blade (senior moment and can't remember the name). Are these type "daggers" available at any time in DA2?

Thanks I find it very interesting that daggers vs bow is split between players.

There is only one dagger that looks like that in the game, it's the dagger Finesse you get from Zevran (assuming he was still alive in your import) after finishing his quest in Act 3. There is also a mod (if you're on pc) that switches the appearances of all daggers (or only certain high-level daggers) to the half-moon dagger.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there are actually two... one being the finesse the other can be bought from the weapon smith in the gallows during act 3 and is called the spiders heart... it isnt an exact replica of the finesse but has the same basic shape

Modifié par C Trayne, 06 août 2011 - 10:01 .

[mappam]

Thanks for the replies and info.

Is there an easy way to switch weapons? It was easy in DA-O but I have not found a way to do this without going into inventory in DA2.

Thanks again for all of your help and tid-bits!

[Heather Cline]

no DA2 removed the weapon swapping feature that DAO had. So if you wanna swap weapons you have to do it from the equip menu. I think it's been done like this so you focus only on a specific build.

[SuicidalBaby]

pc users can download a weapon swap mod from the nexus

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 07 août 2011 - 04:10 .

[Fallstar]

AreleX wrote...

i don't care about your numbers, your entire reasoning behind choosing archery can be traced back to a statement borne of ignorance, you bloody fool. normally, i don't care if the pigheaded and ignorant remain so, but if someone else is going to be spending (and wasting) their likely limited gaming time going on false statements, i'm going to step in.

the patch reduced the force on enemy attacks by such a margin that it's almost wholly insignificant, making your entire argument irrelevant. elite enemies will not be knockback chaining you, and normal enemies will not be stunlocking you.

pre-patch, you just needed to buy the etched ring of the twins. knockBACK was an issue without it, since trash enemies could interrupt your attacks and stunlock you. knockDOWN should not have been, since the elites that could do it should be brittle and dead before they have a chance to do it.

stop wasting my time and get off my forums.

Putdown of the year.

[ripstrawberry]

""I didn't find the Carta dagger helpful at all with that (the one with the "you can't be knocked down" ability) . Don't know why, it doesn't work for me. It also comes very late in the game so you have to bite the dust a lot until you find it."

Immune to knockback property (and I think maybe the warrior talent as well) is bugged not to work.

"With an archer you have access to less abilities that deal a lot of damage, but you have the advantage of being able to shoot from a distance. This allows you to switch targets in no time and also to kill enemies before they can reach you. @ Nightmare level it's a lot of fun and now that bethany has the Force Mage specialization you can build a party with her, you, anders and varric.
It's a death machine. You block all the enemies with gravitic ring or the gliph of paralisys and then go nuts with all the area spells: firestorm, rain of arrows and stuff like that. You can also freeze them then kill everyone with the archer abilities that affect brittle targets (archer's lance and bursting arrow. They are both AOE)."

Agreed. Though I'd prefer Sebastian vs. bosses (wounding arrow) and non-fire immune enemies. Merrill might even be a better option than both due to hex of torment, entropic cloud and another elemental weapons. Hail of arrows is a waste of points though even on higher levels. Crap dmg.

"As far as critics go I reached 20 K damage on normal enemies and something like 7 K on bosses with assassination."

I've gone higher. Especially before the stupid dmg cap implemented in the patch. This is why in a party DWs are superior dps-wise. They're not mitigated as much by the dmg cap and they have other ways to keep threat off of them like taunt and goad + the the threat genenrated by others.

"none of this is true"

I disagree. I think the other posters (including myself) have given some valid points and some of them are true. What you're doing is over-generalizing. I could see why Rahelron was offended.

"Copy and paste these in your browser miscreant:"

XD

"And Remember: 291% doesn't include the +25% granted by disorienting criticals, because it triggers only when you are obscured. So the real percentage is 316%"

Err... it's 50% if you have the latest patch. So you can go ahead and pad that number a bit more.

"i don't care about your numbers, your entire reasoning behind choosing archery can be traced back to a statement borne of ignorance, you bloody fool. normally, i don't care if the pigheaded and ignorant remain so, but if someone else is going to be spending (and wasting) their likely limited gaming time going on false statements, i'm going to step in."

As I've mentioned previously, not everything is false, but yes certain information are lacking/wrong.

"stop wasting my time and get off my forums."

I'll just point to this from Rahelron-->PS: the forum is not yours. You just spend more time than others writing guides.

"miscreant is a funny word, though."

*nods*

"anyway, in addition to making knockback non-existant, the last patch also put a damage cap on enemies. This means that slower larger damages will hit that cap harder (i.e. 'wasted damage') and faster smaller damages will be better. This was discussed in a previous post (somewhere on pg 1 but I can't be bothered checking) but basically, the idea that archers deal as much or more damage than DW doesn't really work anymore."

True but the gap ain't that wide though especially if the enemies are spread far apart.

"DW is a lot better damage-wise in terms of dps and spike damage. The only minor difference where archery could be superior is against fire weaknesses (archery has two good fire bows) and maybe against annoying aoe attack enemies (e.g. some of the dragons). Survivability arguably favours archery, but if you know what you're doing with a shadow (e.g. stealth and decoy) you shouldn't be struggling with threat-management/getting injured either way. I actually prefer soloing with a DW because decoys seem to be more effective when used close up."

True on decoy being more useful in melee range as the threat it generates has a "radius"- meaning newly spawned enemies who are far away won't just attack it. However, I seem to be having slight difficulties surviving as a level 50 DW rogue on nightmare. Enemies turn on me almost instantly even w/ inconspicuous and subtlety. I've soloed both with an archer and a DW on 50 and both deal tremendous amounts of dmg. So the only thing I can account for as to my DW not having enough threat management sometimes is the fact that I'm in melee range often compared to an archer.

"Basically, DW is awesome. hahaha"

Agreed dps wise but for my tastes it's better off for party play where it can be protected better.

"@ripstrawberry - all the stats transfer over because it's still the same weapon. It only has a faster attack rate and a suitably reduced damage. This is actually not as good for an archer because normal auto-attacks can interrupt enemies to a degree. The smaller faster dagger attacks don't deal as much force and the enemies are free to attack the archer. THis means that it's usually better to run away and shoot a few more arrows if you get mobbed (though against one or two I just dagger them to death). "

Ditto. I know. What I don't understand if everything transfers over then why is the dmg is reduced? How do I pinpoint exaclty how much the dmg is reduced or where this dmg is based on?

"It isn't a dagger you can equip, it's the dagger Hawke gets when (s)he has no weapon equipped. It gives low physical damage with each hit. No reason to put points in DW skills if you are never unequipping your bow."

False. I thought this as well before double-checking with the hood's message to the king equipped. It is as Mr_AFK said.

"you use a special archer dagger and throw some kicks into the mix."

The animations reminded me of Legolas pulling out his dagger in the LOTR movies.

"Interestingly, a DW shadow can easily switch to bows and remain effective while an archer can't switch to DW and be effective. This is because the DW talents are almost necessary in order to be a good DW while archery talents are only mildly useful- auto attacks and spec abilities are all you really need."

True. Though I've found bursting arrow to be quite useful when soloing for mob kills. Targeting is also crappy on the PS3 by the way. Especially if you're coming off a pause or killing something.

"One trick I have found is that the Unending Chain +crit bonus will carry over if you switch from DW to Bow mid fight. like in the high dragon encounter."

Nice to know. Never knew this. Not as useufl for me though coz i usually have 100% crit anyways.

[mr_afk]

The damage is reduced because the attacks are faster?

It's not that complicated. Say you have a base damage (bow+dex) of 50 and you fire two arrows every second. This means you deal 100 dps right?
When you attack with a dagger lets say you attack four times every second. If the damage remained at 50 you would be dealing 200dps which would be ridiculous- the archer would be more powerful at close range.

So what the game does is reduce the base damage used for each dagger attack (probably dividing it by the difference between base attack rates) such that you might deal 25 damage four times a second. i.e. still 100dps

The only thing which isn't affected is runes and poisons. That and avoiding the damage cap means that an archer potentially might do more dps at close range than ranged- at the cost of inflicting a lot less force.

Modifié par mr_afk, 08 août 2011 - 09:42 .

[ripstrawberry]

Got it, so your base dmg is reduced to a dagger of equal level. Nice to know poisons/rune dmg isn't affected by the dmg decrease. Less force i think shouldn't be an issue if you're killing a grunt.

[AreleX]

i don't care who i offended or if i generalized, people shouldn't make declarative statements unless they know what they're talking about. it misleads those who don't know, but come looking for answers.

i don't really have an issue with the rest of his advice. i DID have an issue with the fact that his reason for reaching the conclusions he did were patently false, and he stated them as facts.

[thendcomes]

ripstrawberry wrote...
So what's best for the 3rd slot to optimize dps? I was thinking it's a toss up between +nature dmg (if +x% nature dmg gear affected it) or + spirit dmg (would deal more than the listed dmg due to decreased dmg res). Any thoughts?

Rune of striking. That's worth several attribute points that you save on dex that go right to cunning.

[deynoc]

I prefer Dual-Wield, but if you don't like having to baby sit Hawke you may want to go archer i find if I am not in direct control of a dual wield rogue they tend to get there ass handed to them. if you set its tactics okay it should be fine though