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[ReallyRue]

I'm confused, and need to straighten this out. As much as I enjoyed Legacy, it's made me even more confused.

1. Were the Archdemons actual Old Gods? Meaning, that they aren't just some powerful and unique darkspawn, but entities made into darkspawn somehow. I originally thought the Archdemons were the Magisters who entered the Golden/Black City and got turned into Archdemons as a result. Clearly this isn't the case.

2. Why did the Tevinters want to go to the Golden/Black City? Clearly it wasn't because they wanted to see the Maker. Was it because they thought the Old Gods were there, or because no one was recorded doing it before (despite mages being able to see it whilst in the Fade), or some other reason?

3. How did the Tevinter Magisters (mainly Corytheus) and the Archdemons (if they are indeed Old Gods) get turned into darkspawn? Is there something in the Golden/Black City that corrupted them, or did their presence corrupt it and themselves, or something else entirely?

4. Where did the darkspawn come from - Corytheus and friends, or the Archdemons?

5. How does Corytheus call to the darkspawn, as the Archdemons do? Is it because he is powerful/an original darkspawn? Were the Architect and Mother also able to call to darkspawn?

Apologies for the rambling. Any insight into any of the questions would be appreciated.

[whykikyouwhy]

I can only tackle a few of these without digging into the wiki, or codexes (which I can't do at this moment). But here's what I remember:

1. Were the Archdemons actual Old Gods? They are said to be Old Gods, yes. The Magisters were mages - albeit very powerful ones.

2. Why did the Tevinters want to go to the Golden/Black City? The Magisters were seeking to either take the power of the Maker by infiltrating the Golden City, or to take down the Maker himself. There are some conflicting wiki entries about this - or rather about the Maker's presence in the City. In one account, he resided in the City until man began to worship the Old Gods again. In another account, he isn't said to be there, but the Golden City becomes the Black City when the magisters attempted to gain entry. There is a lot of speculation about whether or not the City was truly "golden", when and how it became "Black", etc.

3. How did the Tevinter Magisters (mainly Corytheus) and the Archdemons (if they are indeed Old Gods) get turned into darkspawn? The Chant tells that it was a curse from the Maker for the Magisters breaking into the Golden City and corrupting it. Though there is speculation that the city was already corrupted and the Magisters just unleashed that vileness (and were consequently twisted by it) when they broke in.

4. Where did the darkspawn come from - Corytheus and friends, or the Archdemons? A wiki check might better answer this, but I believe it's the unleashing of the Taint that creates the darkspawn. I don't know that the Architect or Corypheus had a direct hand in any transformation.

5. How does Corytheus call to the darkspawn, as the Archdemons do? Corypheus is, at heart, a mage, so he probably can tap into compulsion and coercion magics - probably amplified by the Taint and perhaps traveling like a voice within the Fade. This might be another good wiki check.

Hope that helps - or at least doesn't add more confusion.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 02 août 2011 - 10:04 .

[ReallyRue]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

2. Why did the Tevinters want to go to the Golden/Black City? The Magisters were seeking to either take the power of the Maker by infiltrating the Golden City, or to take down the Maker himself. There are some conflicting wiki entries about this - or rather about the Maker's presence in the City. In one account, he resided in the City until man began to worship the Old Gods again. In another account, he isn't said to be there, but the Golden City becomes the Black City when the magisters attempted to gain entry. There is a lot of speculation about whether or not the City was truly "golden", when and how it became "Black", etc.

Thanks for answering all the questions! Quite helpful.
I'm still unclear on one thing though. Did the Chantry tell this story about Tevinter's defiling the Maker's City in hindsight to the darkspawn corruption, or did they believe at the time that the Golden City was the seat of the Maker? I thought Tevinters didn't believe in the Maker.

[whykikyouwhy]

Well, the Tevinters now may not believe in the Maker. I'm not entirely certain, and would need to check.

The Chantry's version of things came post-darkspawn inception, and may be very much peppered with hyperbole, or at least has some twisting of the truth. They're changing the broad faith of Thedas from polytheistic to monotheistic, so they've probably taken some poetic license. The Chantry tells that the Golden City was created by the Maker as a heaven to the faithful, and that the Maker did reside there. Then the Chantry tells of the Magisters seeking to usurp the Maker, and by crossing into the City, they either corrupted it (with their greed and magics, perhaps?) or were cursed by the Maker for their deed. But it's this event that changes things and supposedly brings about the era of the darkspawn.

If you look at this part of the story as pure allegory, it's all meant to imply that man should not defy the gods (or the one god). When you talk to Corypheus, he talks about the city already being black, about how Dumat led him there, etc and so forth. And he also mentions "gods" - plural. So the Maker could have been "a" god, or a powerful entity, and was probably such a being seeking, in his own regard and reason, to undermine the Old Gods.

A bit hazy there. Sorry.

[OmegaXI]

I thought the "Old Gods" were just powerful dragons that were worshiped like the dragon that the Cult of Andraste worshiped in DA:O or even like Flemeth.

[ReallyRue]

@whykikyouwhy, I see. I was always a bit hazy on the Golden City stuff (it's been a long time since I read the Codex, and even then I don't think I entirely understood), and even more so how the Maker and Old God religions related in regard to it, but Legacy just confused me even more. Thanks again.

@Omega, at first I thought it was either powerful dragons or Magisters turned into Archdemons, but Morrigan refers to Urthemiel as having the "soul of an Old God", which she says is what she was taking into the baby when she did her ritual. So I'm assuming they were Old Gods. Unless, of course, that's just her own belief and not truth.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 02 août 2011 - 10:33 .

[whykikyouwhy]

OmegaXI wrote...

I thought the "Old Gods" were just powerful dragons that were worshiped like the dragon that the Cult of Andraste worshiped in DA:O or even like Flemeth.

I'm hardly a lore/codex expert...I'm really just remembering a lot from recently scouring the wiki for some other threads.

And...I just made a quick check of the wiki so I have some clarifications.

The Old Gods are entities that were worshipped in the form of dragons. Whether they were actually dragons is unknown - they may have just taken on that form.

The Old Gods were imprisoned by the Maker but their minds roamed the Fade. It was through this roving mental energy that they contacted the Magisters and coerced them to enter the Golden City to gain power to free them.

Though for that last bit, I think the Magisters may have wanted the power for themselves as well - not just for the freeing of gods.

[OmegaXI]

I hear ya, but it's always the fun kind of confusion when you go further down the rabbit hole : D

[ReallyRue]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

I thought the "Old Gods" were just powerful dragons that were worshiped like the dragon that the Cult of Andraste worshiped in DA:O or even like Flemeth.

I'm hardly a lore/codex expert...I'm really just remembering a lot from recently scouring the wiki for some other threads.

And...I just made a quick check of the wiki so I have some clarifications.

The Old Gods are entities that were worshipped in the form of dragons. Whether they were actually dragons is unknown - they may have just taken on that form.

The Old Gods were imprisoned by the Maker but their minds roamed the Fade. It was through this roving mental energy that they contacted the Magisters and coerced them to enter the Golden City to gain power to free them.

Though for that last bit, I think the Magisters may have wanted the power for themselves as well - not just for the freeing of gods.

Oh, that's interesting, I'd never heard that before. Is this Chantry lore again? I never realised that the Magisters were supposed to have been persuaded into entering the City (which explains a bit more why Corytheus seems to be wondering why Dumat has abandoned him).

[Sepewrath]

ReallyRue wrote...Thanks for answering all the questions! Quite helpful.
I'm still unclear on one thing though. Did the Chantry tell this story about Tevinter's defiling the Maker's City in hindsight to the darkspawn corruption, or did they believe at the time that the Golden City was the seat of the Maker? I thought Tevinters didn't believe in the Maker.

Yeah it seems that way, they were trying to rally people to their belief system, by demonizing the mage ruled society, by placing these monsters that ravaged the place for almost 200yrs at their feet, it made this Maker who it sounds like is against magic, that much more appealing.

The Maker thing didn't exist until after the First Blight was over, this was well after Corypheus and the other magisters went to the Black City. So no they didn't believe in the Maker, they worshipped the Dragons.

[ReallyRue]

Sepewrath wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...Thanks for answering all the questions! Quite helpful.
I'm still unclear on one thing though. Did the Chantry tell this story about Tevinter's defiling the Maker's City in hindsight to the darkspawn corruption, or did they believe at the time that the Golden City was the seat of the Maker? I thought Tevinters didn't believe in the Maker.

Yeah it seems that way, they were trying to rally people to their belief system, by demonizing the mage ruled society, by placing these monsters that ravaged the place for almost 200yrs at their feet, it made this Maker who it sounds like is against magic, that much more appealing.

The Maker thing didn't exist until after the First Blight was over, this was well after Corypheus and the other magisters went to the Black City. So no they didn't believe in the Maker, they worshipped the Dragons.

So the Maker wouldn't be their reason for going to the Black City then. Did they think the Old Gods would be there? Or that the City just looked interesting and mysterious from afar? Hmm, is everything we know about it based on Chantry lore?

[Blacklash93]

OmegaXI wrote...

I thought the "Old Gods" were just powerful dragons that were worshiped like the dragon that the Cult of Andraste worshiped in DA:O or even like Flemeth.

It's not known whether the Old Gods are truly dragons. They certainly seem to be, but anything is possible.

If the Old Gods really are dragons that raises a number of issues:

- Dragons are (most likely) not intelligent as the Old Gods are. Admittedly, this is something that's hard to judge.
- The Old Gods are males and Drakes do not grow to the scale of females.
- Dragons cannot use magic.

But there are also some interesting parallels and things of interest:

- Tainted dragons can tap into their blood for power, like an Archdemon.
- Ingesting dragon blood teaches one to harness their blood for power, which goes back to the Old Gods possibly being the origin of blood magic.
- The Archdemon of Origins had the same head shape and bulky tail of Drakes.
- If you go back to the original Origins site, normal dragons are called the children of the Old Gods.

I personally hope they are dragons, as they really need the significance in this series named after them.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 août 2011 - 11:46 .

[Blacklash93]

Sepewrath wrote...

The Maker thing didn't exist until after the First Blight was over, this was well after Corypheus and the other magisters went to the Black City. So no they didn't believe in the Maker, they worshipped the Dragons.

The Tevinters acknowledged the Maker's existance. They just believed that he had abandoned humanity and the Old Gods had saved them from despairing in a godless world. They believed the Maker's inactive role in the world was proof that his throne in the Golden City was empty and that he no longer cared about them.

Worship of the Maker predates Andraste by a long time. She just put him back in style.

[ReallyRue]

@Blacklash, perhaps the Old Gods were shapechangers (similar to Flemeth) and dragon form happened to be the most recognised/used/respected, etc. If people even saw them at all. If they didn't then I suppose High Dragons would naturally seem like the most impressive and powerful beings on the planet, so Old Gods would assume that form.

As for the Maker thing, if a general belief Maker (a non-Andrastian version?) existed around the time the Magisters actually entered the City, does that mean that finding the Maker (or some other Maker-related reason) could be the reason for the Magisters entering the City (and not just Chantry tales)?

[Sepewrath]

^That's the Chantry's version, which would seem is false.

ReallyRue wrote...
So the Maker wouldn't be their reason for going to the Black City then. Did they think the Old Gods would be there? Or that the City just looked interesting and mysterious from afar? Hmm, is everything we know about it based on Chantry lore?

Well according to Cory, Dumat was egging them on with the promise of the Golden City, exactly what they were expecting to get out of this, we don't know yet.

[whykikyouwhy]

ReallyRue wrote...

@Blacklash, perhaps the Old Gods were shapechangers (similar to Flemeth) and dragon form happened to be the most recognised/used/respected, etc. If people even saw them at all. If they didn't then I suppose High Dragons would naturally seem like the most impressive and powerful beings on the planet, so Old Gods would assume that form.

As for the Maker thing, if a general belief Maker (a non-Andrastian version?) existed around the time the Magisters actually entered the City, does that mean that finding the Maker (or some other Maker-related reason) could be the reason for the Magisters entering the City (and not just Chantry tales)?

The Maker supposedly imprisoned the Old Gods, so he (it) did exist - according to everything we know thus far. I think (and here is where speculation kicks in) that the Magisters' purpose was, in the very least, two-fold: enter the City and take the power there, or of the Maker, and free the Old Gods. The latter potentially to gain more power. In the very least, there was some type of greed and desire at work - whether the Magisters' own, or as coerced by the Old Gods.

The Maker may have been another deity, known by a different name at the time, but adopted by the Chantry later since he successfully (supposedly) took down the Old Gods. They venerated him into an exalted status, dubbed him the Maker, etc. He may have been an Old God himself, but is now seen under a different veneer.

[Sepewrath]

Well the thing is the Old Gods being trapped, the city being corrupted, the magisters going in there to spite The Maker and take his power, this is all the Chantry's story. Based on what Corypheus said, it calls into question the entire account, because it sounds like the city was black to begin with and the magisters knew nothing about this Maker, so their intentions were nothing like what the Chantry says. You have to take their version with a grain of salt.

[Darius Vir]

Something interesting from an old thread entitled "The Chantry, The Maker, The Old Gods: Questions".  http://social.biowar.../index/508455/3

Gaider himself states (as already mentioned above by Blacklash) that the Tevinters acknowledged the existence of the beinger LATER called the Maker, but believed he had abandoned the world and directed their worship to the beings we call the Old Gods.  

However, particularly noteworthy was the line that "The people of Ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City...."

I still got the sense that he might have been speaking from an at least partial in-game "who really knows" voice, in this thread.  But I wonder if we can take that line as some form of hard evidence that the Golden City was indeed a golden city at this point in history. 

And of course, it was a year ago.  They could have change their minds.  That too. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 02 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well the thing is the Old Gods being trapped, the city being corrupted, the magisters going in there to spite The Maker and take his power, this is all the Chantry's story. Based on what Corypheus said, it calls into question the entire account, because it sounds like the city was black to begin with and the magisters knew nothing about this Maker, so their intentions were nothing like what the Chantry says. You have to take their version with a grain of salt.

Grain of salt I completely agree with. And I personally think the City (or whatever) was corrupted early on. But as far as the Old Gods being imprisoned goes, that at least may hold true considering that Dumat (or something claiming to be Dumat) was in communication with Corypheus - Dumat called to him, convinced him to enter the City, etc. He may not have been "trapped" exactly, but he was certainly removed from the same plane where a non-tainted Corypheus dwelled.

There's some truth somewhere in this all - game lore truth. It's just all muddied with some Chantry spin.

[ReallyRue]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

@Blacklash, perhaps the Old Gods were shapechangers (similar to Flemeth) and dragon form happened to be the most recognised/used/respected, etc. If people even saw them at all. If they didn't then I suppose High Dragons would naturally seem like the most impressive and powerful beings on the planet, so Old Gods would assume that form.

As for the Maker thing, if a general belief Maker (a non-Andrastian version?) existed around the time the Magisters actually entered the City, does that mean that finding the Maker (or some other Maker-related reason) could be the reason for the Magisters entering the City (and not just Chantry tales)?

The Maker supposedly imprisoned the Old Gods, so he (it) did exist - according to everything we know thus far. I think (and here is where speculation kicks in) that the Magisters' purpose was, in the very least, two-fold: enter the City and take the power there, or of the Maker, and free the Old Gods. The latter potentially to gain more power. In the very least, there was some type of greed and desire at work - whether the Magisters' own, or as coerced by the Old Gods.

The Maker may have been another deity, known by a different name at the time, but adopted by the Chantry later since he successfully (supposedly) took down the Old Gods. They venerated him into an exalted status, dubbed him the Maker, etc. He may have been an Old God himself, but is now seen under a different veneer.

Right, so the Magisters went to the Golden City (believing the Maker resided there), after being urged by the Old Gods (perhaps because they wanted the Magisters to free them). And then the Magisters were turned into darkspawn (all of them?). Was it the Maker who turned the Old Gods into Archdemons then, if that's what Archdemons are?

I wrote part of that off at first as Chantry propaganda, but I didn't realise that the Maker actually predates the 'modern' Chantry. Mind you, if the City was already black when they got there, then it suggests that it was either humans' wishful thinking that the City is golden, or that it was already corrupted when the Magisters got there.

Heck, this philosophical stuff raises as many questions as answers. It's a good thing I stay away from the discussions that bring the Dalish gods into the equation, or I'd never figure it out.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 02 août 2011 - 11:31 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Darius Vir wrote...

Something interesting from an old thread entitled "The Chantry, The Maker, The Old Gods: Questions".  http://social.biowar.../index/508455/3

Gaider himself states (as already mentioned above by Blacklash) that the Tevinters acknowledged the existence of the beinger LATER called the Maker, but believed he had abandoned the world and directed their worship to the beings we call the Old Gods.  

However, particularly noteworthy was the line that "The people of Ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City...."

I still got the sense that he might have been speaking from an at least partial in-game "who really knows" voice, in this thread.  But I wonder if we can take that line as some form of hard evidence that the Golden City was indeed a golden city at this point in history. 

And of course, it was a year ago.  They could have change their minds.  That too. 

Excellent find! (I applaud you for wading through the forum search.) Awareness of the existence of the Golden City is still pretty ambiguous. At that point in the timeline, it may have already been corrupt. It may be that it appeared golden on the outside but was already or always vile within. It may be that legend was already built up declaring it golden...

My head will begin to hurt soon.

ReallyRue wrote...

Right, so the Magisters went to the Golden City (believing the Maker resided there), after being urged by the Old Gods (perhaps because they wanted the Magisters to free them). And then the Magisters were turned into darkspawn (all of them?). Was it the Maker who turned the Old Gods into Archdemons then, if that's what Archdemons are?

I wrote part of that off at first as Chantry propaganda, but I didn't realise that the Maker actually predates the 'modern' Chantry. Mind you, if the City was already black when they got there, then it suggests that it was either humans' wishful thinking that the City is golden, or that it was already corrupted when the Magisters got there.

Heck, this philosophical stuff raises as many questions as answers. It's a good thing I stay away from the discussions that bring the Dalish gods into the equation, or I'd never figure it out.

The Magisters are considered the first darkspawn, I believe. According to lore, there were 5 Magisters that tried to enter the City. But I don't think the Maker turned the Old Gods into Archdemons. They may have been Archdemons to begin with, or the Taint settled upon them and twisted them somehow. I'd have to check if there is something recorded somewhere.

[TEWR]

For all we know the Fade made it appear Golden. The Fade seems to have a very shiny golden hue to it, and it has its own sun if you look up into the sky IIRC. Is it possible the "golden" was just a trick of the eyes?

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For all we know the Fade made it appear Golden. The Fade seems to have a very shiny golden hue to it, and it has its own sun if you look up into the sky IIRC. Is it possible the "golden" was just a trick of the eyes?

Fool's gold.

[ReallyRue]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For all we know the Fade made it appear Golden. The Fade seems to have a very shiny golden hue to it, and it has its own sun if you look up into the sky IIRC. Is it possible the "golden" was just a trick of the eyes?

It could possibly even just look golden from outside, until the Magisters entered and realised. And then for some reason it looks black to everyone else afterwards. I don't know.

- It wasn't the existence of the golden/black City that I personally was confused about, but why the Magisters would go there (because I thought they predated the belief in the Maker) and how it turned them into darkspawn, etc.