125 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

@whykikyouwhy: Hah pretty much.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 août 2011 - 11:46 .

[TEWR]

ReallyRue wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For all we know the Fade made it appear Golden. The Fade seems to have a very shiny golden hue to it, and it has its own sun if you look up into the sky IIRC. Is it possible the "golden" was just a trick of the eyes?

It could possibly even just look golden from outside, until the Magisters entered and realised. And then for some reason it looks black to everyone else afterwards. I don't know.

- It wasn't the existence of the golden/black City that I personally was confused about, but why the Magisters would go there (because I thought they predated the belief in the Maker) and how it turned them into darkspawn, etc.

Avernus' notes mention that the Black City is linked to the taint. Whether it was ever truly Golden and whether it was ever really corrupted is unknown.


Also, food for speculation:

I remember Avernus also saying the Darkspawn taint is alien to the demons, and I remember that we enter a portion of the Fade filled with Darkspawn.

[whykikyouwhy]

Illusion, or myth. Or golden on the outside but corrupt on the inside. Like a rotten Twinkie.

[Blacklash93]

I find it interesting how the Old Gods went silent after the Black City Incident. You think they would be desperately trying to get people to free them before the darkspawn have their way.

Either things are going exactly according to their plan (thus no further contact with others is necessary) or something happened in the Black City that disrupted their communication across the Fade.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 août 2011 - 11:58 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Archdemons were said to be Old Gods. There was scholarly debate whether they truly were or not but the Architect confirmed that they were.

Whether it was ever gold or not, the implication that I gathered is that the Black City is the source of the taint. Being in the Black City transformed the magisters into darkspawn and they spread the taint to others who presumably became ghouls and broodmothers which created the rest of the darkspawn. In Awakening it was revealed that the darkspawn all are drawn to the song of the Old Gods for some reason. It compels them to find and taint them turning them into Archdemons. The link between the Song of the Old Gods and the taint is not entirely clear. Everyone who is connected to the taint can hear the Archdemons, but only the darkspawn can hear untainted Old Gods, and they are capable of being freed from it.

[Darius Vir]

Excellent find! (I applaud you for wading through the forum search.) Awareness of the existence of the Golden City is still pretty ambiguous. At that point in the timeline, it may have already been corrupt. It may be that it appeared golden on the outside but was already or always vile within. It may be that legend was already built up declaring it golden

Yeah, still lots of questions, for sure.  But I did think it was an interesting add-on, coming from Gaider.  

I don't have any real evidence for this, but it seems crazy that the Golden City (as imagined via the Chant) existed all pure during the height of blood addled, slave killing, Arlathan sinking Tevinter...but only turned Black and unleashed all hell (literally) once the Magisters show up.

[TEWR]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I find it interesting how the Old Gods went silent after the Black City Incident. You think they would be desperately trying to get people to free them before the darkspawn have their way.

Either things are going exactly according to their plan (thus no further contact with others is necessary) or something happened in the Black City that disrupted their communication across the Fade.

I find it interesting how the Tevinters thought Dumat the God of Silence would talk to them. He's not very silent, is he?


And I do know that Archdemons can access the Fade. Whether the Old Gods could when they were pre-tainted I don't know.

[Blacklash93]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I find it interesting how the Old Gods went silent after the Black City Incident. You think they would be desperately trying to get people to free them before the darkspawn have their way.

Either things are going exactly according to their plan (thus no further contact with others is necessary) or something happened in the Black City that disrupted their communication across the Fade.

And I do know that Archdemons can access the Fade. Whether the Old Gods could when they were pre-tainted I don't know.

If the Chantry is to be believed, they can. How else would the Magisters know of their existance or learn magic from them?

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

If it was always rotten on the inside but gradually got corrupted until it all turned black can we really say it was never truly golden? Isn't that kind of like saying an apple was never truly fresh because it was always going to turn rotten eventually?

If we don't know its rotten at its core, and we only know it from the outer appearance, we can certainly call it Golden. Well...those in Thedas can. This is all fluff and speculation about its meaty insides vs its shiny hued skin. I think its just a pumped up legend, or an illusion of sound-true-gloriousness. And I also think that as the latter, it was really a walled up crypt of everything vile in the world/universe. And when the Magisters opened the door and crossed the threshold, they opened the proverbial Pandora's box.

I have been a speculation-posting fool lately, so I'm sure someone in this thread has read my drivel already. Apologies for the possible repitition.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 03 août 2011 - 12:08 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The magisters believed that the city was gold when they entered. I think the main question is whether people today believe the Black City is black because of the story in the Chant of the Light or because anyone in the fade can see that it is black. If it's the latter then, it would imply that it was gold before the magisters breached it.

Although they were said to be tricked into doing so, so if it looked black back then, Dumat (or whoever it was) must have been extremely persuasive in convincing them it was viable to find light there.

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I find it interesting how the Tevinters thought Dumat the God of Silence would talk to them. He's not very silent, is he?


And I do know that Archdemons can access the Fade. Whether the Old Gods could when they were pre-tainted I don't know.

I think he's called the God of Silence because he was defeated on the Silent Plains. But, in my grand arrogant speculations, I think he was meant to "silence" something - magic, or power, or some other function in the world.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think Dumat was ever thought to be literally silent. He was the first one that supposedly taught the Tevinters Blood Magic after all. He'd have to talk to the magisters to do that.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 août 2011 - 12:20 .

[ReallyRue]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think Dumat was ever thought to be literally silent. He was the first one that supposedly taught the Tevinters Blood Magic after all. He'd have to talk to the magisters to do that.

And Corypheus seemed pretty convinced that he could communicate with Dumat.

[TEWR]

Maybe Dumat was actually a mime dragon?

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

Well it depends. If it was completely rotten but only golden as some form of illusion/mass hallucination, then I'd say we could say it was always rotten. If it was only rotten at the core but it eventually spread until it reached the surface and then suddenly became black, then it would fit with my previous statement. If it's something more arcane like a conjuration of the Fade mimicking what it sees in people's hearts or what have you, I would guess then that it wasn't corrupted at all at some point. (perhaps a symbol of the innocence of youth)

Looking at the City from the perspective of the average Thedas citizen, the city could still be called Golden because that it what they see and perceive, or know from tales. Even the magisters, upon approach, may have seen or believed the city to be Golden from the inside out. I think the true rot was inside, and unleashed/exposed/released/freed when the door opened. Thus, it becomes the Black City - the corruption within infiltrates outside, casts its shadows upon the facade etc.

Upon arrival, the Magisters (at least Corypheus) found the City to be black. They may not have entered through any outer door, but somehow portaled inside, therefore they arrived deep in the heart of all that was vile. So they may have still been under the impression that the City was and should have been Golden. Until, that is, they truly entered.

But yes, it could all be completely symbolic and allegorical. But Corypheus believed some part of it - he thought he was going to the land of golden grahams and crips and honey smacks.

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think he's called the God of Silence because he was defeated on the Silent Plains. But, in my grand arrogant speculations, I think he was meant to "silence" something - magic, or power, or some other function in the world.

I thought the Silent Plains were called the Silent Plains because that's where the God of Silence was defeated. Also because the blight permanently killed nature in that region, making it dead and silent.

But yeah I took it to be a metaphor as well... or just a hint at his abilities (like how templars can 'silence' their enemies), not that he's literally silent.

He's the original ninja.

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Looking at the City from the perspective of the average Thedas citizen, the city could still be called Golden because that it what they see and perceive, or know from tales. Even the magisters, upon approach, may have seen or believed the city to be Golden from the inside out.

I'm not talking about appearance though, but what it actually is. It's a matter of whether it was a black city with gold paint or a slowly rotting golden city. Or a truly golden city that turned black by some event, predating or coinciding with the Magisters' entry. Or an illusion that's not a city at all, an illusion used to trick them into trying to enter it, which in fact led somewhere else entirely... or both gold and black at the same time, given the nature of the Fade being a realm of impossibilities... or a giant gold and black countershaded shark.

But we'll never know what it truly is. Not until there is some grand formal declaration. I've been calling it the Golden-Black City, though I think I need a catchier name (and catchier than rotten Twinkie). One of my odd hazy theories is that the taint always existed, not so much as a "taint" (implying something to change and make vile), but as a bundle of negative energy/shadows/etc. I see it as slag from the creation of the universe. The dregs, the residue. So going along that shaky theory (which sounds more allegorical than anything), it was bundled into this realm, maybe locked away all snug and tight under a golden glow. Perhaps the golden cast to things was simply the magics radiating from the locks.

Because no one knew what was behind the gates/doors, everyone who encountered it saw it as golden, and believed it to be so on the inside. If we take the Maker's heaven completely out of the picture, it just looks like some ethereal realm of wonder. If we put the Maker back into the equation, perhaps he did (exist, and) create a Golden City that was heaven. Maybe the Magisters pointed their compasses toward the wrong golden glow.

Maybe it is a giant gold and black countershaded shark.

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

But we're speculating about what it actually is. So if it's only golden in appearance it's not truly golden in terms of what it actually is. Which is what we're speculating on.

So...a golden sunset, Golden Corral, golden arches, golden grahams, golden retriever, Golden Girls...all things we refer to as gold that are not actually gold, but have some appearance of gold, or are metaphorically gold. By doing so, calling these things such, we do not take away from what the item/object/person actually is. Yet we still call them golden.

Speculation-wise - a golden box containing evil. Or, magical iron pyrite.