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[TEWR]

metaphorically gold.....


Golden City..... Paradise....



huh....

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

I don't mean to keep reducing your speculations down to a single point, but it just feels like you're basically agreeing with my hypothetical about it being a golden city painted black but refusing to actually agree with me because perceptively it could still kinda sorta be considered golden, but that's not what I'm talking about.

So this boils down to you wanting my full implicit agreement to your theory, however hypothetical?

If that's not it, I have clearly missed what you're talking about.

[TEWR]

I think whykikyouwhy may have been on to something when she brought up metaphorically gold things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2011 - 01:21 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

It's not about demanding agreement, sheesh. It's because it feels like you do agree with me, it's just because we're thinking on different wavelengths here we're arguing about what, to me, is immaterial, and I'm having a frustrating time trying to reconcile that. Nevermind.

Why can't the wavelengths run parallel though? I don't disagree with you, but I haven't completely abandoned my own theories, albeit hazy ones.

It boils down to my not knowing enough, out of my own ignorance of every single codex entry known to man, and out of there not being enough revealed. So all I really have at this point are speculations, theories, metaphors. And they keep changing - small shifts, but still change. I've been posting about the magisters, cities, darkspawn and what have you like a fiend for 3 days or so now. I don't even completely recall everything I have typed out, or where I typed it.

Everything you have said has validity. But things aren't completely sticking in my head because the waters are turbulent and being bounced around with other conflicting theories and whatever craziness I have found in the wiki.

So apologies for the frustration, Ser Bear. No offense was meant. But I do find you a cunning and formidable opponent, for lack of a better word. And clearly, I am not worthy to take up full arms with you when I have not yet come to firm and fully hashed out ideas.

[Rifneno]

Hmm... now that I think about it, it's odd that Corypheus didn't mention the city's denizens. According to Chantry lore, it was an afterlife paradise. So it should've been full of souls. He never said anything about any beings in there, which is definitely the sort of thing that would've stood out.

Yet another reason I believe it was already tainted within if not throughout. Perhaps whatever happened that tainted it happened in the real world and its own people sent it into the Fade as a kind of quarantine. Although if Tevinter had to use that much power to send 5 people in, I can't fathom the amount of power required to banish an entire city. Then again, the same could be said for the power that created the corruption. ... God, it's like I have ADD. Back to the city being empty. If the Chantry's version was true, why wasn't it full of souls? And if it was, what happened to them?

[MichaelFinnegan]

ReallyRue wrote...

I'm confused,

You and me both.

and need to straighten this out.

Straighting it out isn't likely on the cards. You're likely to get some answers - interpretations more likely.

As much as I enjoyed Legacy, it's made me even more confused.

I haven't played it, but I'll give your questions a try anyway.

1. Were the Archdemons actual Old Gods? Meaning, that they aren't just some powerful and unique darkspawn, but entities made into darkspawn somehow. I originally thought the Archdemons were the Magisters who entered the Golden/Black City and got turned into Archdemons as a result. Clearly this isn't the case.

The story goes - Some magisters of Tevinter entered the Golden City or an already Black City. If the City was Golden before they entered it, then their attempt to enter it turned it Black. In any case, they found some sort of "corruption" in the Black City (likelly the "taint"), and brought it back. And the darkspawn that came later (let me emphasize this, you'll know why a bit later), heard the calling of the Old Gods (supposedly) and searched out for them. They then tainted the Old God's soul, and an Archdemon was born. The Archdemon then took charge of the darkspawn horde - that tried to conquer the lands.

Or so the belief goes.

2. Why did the Tevinters want to go to the Golden/Black City? Clearly it wasn't because they wanted to see the Maker. Was it because they thought the Old Gods were there, or because no one was recorded doing it before (despite mages being able to see it whilst in the Fade), or some other reason?

The magisters were promised the power of the gods. I take this to mean immortality.

3. How did the Tevinter Magisters (mainly Corytheus) and the Archdemons (if they are indeed Old Gods) get turned into darkspawn? Is there something in the Golden/Black City that corrupted them, or did their presence corrupt it and themselves, or something else entirely?

The magisters who entered the City saw some kind of corruption there. And it is likely that they carried the corruption back to Thedas. That does not mean they turned into darkspawn. Even the Archdemon isn't technically a darkspawn - its soul is just corrupted with the taint that the darkspawn carry and infect others with.

4. Where did the darkspawn come from - Corytheus and friends, or the Archdemons?

Technically, anything infected with the taint and that survives turns into a ghoul. Now, a broodmother is also a form of ghoul (if you played Origins, you'd probably have an idea about how the broodmothers are made). Darkspawn are created from broodmothers.

So, no. Neither Corypheus nor the Archdemon is actually darkspawn.

5. How does Corytheus call to the darkspawn, as the Archdemons do? Is it because he is powerful/an original darkspawn? Were the Architect and Mother also able to call to darkspawn?

My own interpretation is that it is somehow linked with the taint. Perhaps with the power of the being that is corrupted. If my memory serves me right, I think the call is some kind of irresistable song. But  I think you maybe onto something when you say that they were perhaps the first to get infected. Although, this doesn't explain the Archdemon as such.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I thought I read somewhere that Chantry lore says that the Golden City was empty at the time of the magisters' arrival because the Maker had abandoned it after the First Sin or at least something along similar lines.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 août 2011 - 03:24 .

[TEWR]

Hmm... now that I think about it, it's odd that Corypheus didn't mention the city's denizens. According to Chantry lore, it was an afterlife paradise. So it should've been full of souls. He never said anything about any beings in there, which is definitely the sort of thing that would've stood out.

I thought of that too and found it odd as well.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I find it interesting how the Old Gods went silent after the Black City Incident. You think they would be desperately trying to get people to free them before the darkspawn have their way.

Either things are going exactly according to their plan (thus no further contact with others is necessary) or something happened in the Black City that disrupted their communication across the Fade.

That is a mighty interesting thought. Could it be that they were somehow cut off from the Fade altogether? Or whatever it is that allowed them to reach the minds of the magisters earlier from the Fade somehow moved and manifested itself into a song that the ones infected with the taint only can hear?

I'm not sure whether they were even aware that the darkspawn were searching for them though. The desperation to become free seems to be happening through the calling now - like the spirt from the Fade having moved into Thedas.

[HSHAW]

wasn't Dumat called the god of silence because of the oaths of silence his followers took?

EDIT: according to the legacy codex entry on Dumat, yes the title is from the oaths of silence.

Modifié par HSHAW, 03 août 2011 - 03:34 .

[Rifneno]

Huh. I always thought it was because despite sacrificing hundreds of slaves, Dumat refused to spoil the series finale of Mash for Tevinter. The more you learn...

[Darius Vir]

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm... now that I think about it, it's odd that Corypheus didn't mention the city's denizens. According to Chantry lore, it was an afterlife paradise. So it should've been full of souls. He never said anything about any beings in there, which is definitely the sort of thing that would've stood out.

Yet another reason I believe it was already tainted within if not throughout. Perhaps whatever happened that tainted it happened in the real world and its own people sent it into the Fade as a kind of quarantine. Although if Tevinter had to use that much power to send 5 people in, I can't fathom the amount of power required to banish an entire city. Then again, the same could be said for the power that created the corruption. ... God, it's like I have ADD. Back to the city being empty. If the Chantry's version was true, why wasn't it full of souls? And if it was, what happened to them?

Things are more than a little off with the Chantry's version.  I'm not sure why some people are saying (not in this thread) that Legacy "confirms" the majority of what the Chantry says.  But, we really just get that the Magisters went in and didn't come out twice as nice.  I actually had never really doubted that part of the story, or even that they were in some form involved with the first Darkspawn. 

I don't know.  During the scene with Corypheus, I got the vibe of a very different world that existed in his time. Compared to the current Dragon Age setting obviously, but more importantly to what the Chantry even SAYS was going on back then.  

Modifié par Darius Vir, 03 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Rifneno]

Darius Vir wrote...

Things are more than a little off with the Chantry's version.  I'm not sure why some people are saying (not in this thread) that Legacy "confirms" the majority of what the Chantry says.

It's a little baffling indeed.  Not as much as the fact a lot of people don't believe the Architect was also a tainted magister now, but that's another thread.

But, we really just get that the Magisters went in and didn't come out twice as nice.  I actually had never really doubted that part of the story, or even that they were in some form involved with the first Darkspawn.  

I don't know.  During the scene with Corypheus, I got the vibe of a very different world that existed in his time. Compared to the current Dragon Age setting obviously, but more importantly to what the Chantry even SAYS was going on back then.

I didn't think it was true TBH, was shocked when I found out Corypheus was a magister.  And I wanted to slap the taste out of Anders' mouth when he acted like this means the Chantry may be justified.

You know, something else I've long wondered about...  People thought after the third Blight that the darkspawn were wiped out.  There's a few mentions of it early in DAO but it's quickly forgotten.  It never seemed to serve any purpose.  What if it was true?  What if they really did kill off all the darkspawn and new ones just started popping up because despite killing the zerg force they hadn't destroyed the true source of the taint?  The only hole in it is that the dwarves surely would've taken back some of their lost thaigs during that short bit of peace and fiercely defended them when the spawn reappeared.  Even if they were eventually pushed back to Orzammar, I'd expect some mention of the brief reclaiming of dwarven lands even if it was 400 years ago.

[Ginkeh]

 I have a feeling the taint originates from when the humans first started interacting with the elves.The elves were infected with human diseases and started dying of natural causes, and they started aging.
According to the wiki, the elves " rather than fight, the elves chose to flee and that with magic, demons, and even dragons at their behest, the Tevinter magisters used their great destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole, destroying eons of collected knowledge, culture, and art."
I believe sometime during this chaos and cruelness, the taint emerged somehow (see bolded part above), maybe when Arlathan was destroyed.

[whykikyouwhy]

This thread is like a bonfire, and I am but a lowly moth...

Rifneno wrote...
You know, something else I've long wondered about... People thought after the third Blight that the darkspawn were wiped out. There's a few mentions of it early in DAO but it's quickly forgotten. It never seemed to serve any purpose. What if it was true? What if they really did kill off all the darkspawn and new ones just started popping up because despite killing the zerg force they hadn't destroyed the true source of the taint? The only hole in it is that the dwarves surely would've taken back some of their lost thaigs during that short bit of peace and fiercely defended them when the spawn reappeared. Even if they were eventually pushed back to Orzammar, I'd expect some mention of the brief reclaiming of dwarven lands even if it was 400 years ago.

What if the dwarves didn't want to reclaim the lands though? What if they were believed to be so cursed and so spoiled that they were essentially sealed off, and all records were wiped out (or buried so deep in the memories as to not be immediately found)? From what I remember of The Calling, the party stumbles upon a sealed chamber littered with dwarven corpses/skeletons. Horrible things had occured there, but it was forgotten - left to rot away and hopefully dissolve out of known time and recollection. It's possible that the physical world's source of the Taint is much like that.

Ginkeh wrote...

 I have a feeling the taint originates from when the humans first started interacting with the elves.The elves were infected with human diseases and started dying of natural causes, and they started aging.
According to the wiki, the elves " rather than fight, the elves chose to flee and that with magic, demons, and even dragons at their behest, the Tevinter magisters used their great destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole, destroying eons of collected knowledge, culture, and art."
I believe sometime during this chaos and cruelness, the taint emerged somehow (see bolded part above), maybe when Arlathan was destroyed.

Arlathan is a possibility as an origin point. I can't shake the feeling that there may be multiple entry points into the City, and that Arlathan was one, or the center on a map if you make pinpoint markers for the other doorways. (And of course, Kirkwall is a Hellmouth...) I don't know what to think of Arlathan, and how it's involved in all of this. Maybe something was taken from the Elves and that's what made them more vulnerable to have their civilization wiped out and their capital torn asunder and buried. Maybe it was in humans' attempt to use that something that the Taint was born.

Maybe it is human disease. A literal and spiritual taint.

(And now I'm going to be mulling on this all day!)

[whykikyouwhy]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Arlathan is a possibility as an origin point. I can't shake the feeling that there may be multiple entry points into the City, and that Arlathan was one, or the center on a map if you make pinpoint markers for the other doorways. (And of course, Kirkwall is a Hellmouth...) I don't know what to think of Arlathan, and how it's involved in all of this. Maybe something was taken from the Elves and that's what made them more vulnerable to have their civilization wiped out and their capital torn asunder and buried. Maybe it was in humans' attempt to use that something that the Taint was born.

Maybe it is human disease. A literal and spiritual taint.

(And now I'm going to be mulling on this all day!)

You know, for a long time I actually thought Arlathan did play quite a big role in spreading the taint. Arlathan, with its Eluvian, was sunken into the ground. Do you remember what Duncan said about the mirrors in the Dalish origin? He said that, over time, they "break" and get filled with the same sort of taint that the Darkspawn carry. It could mean that the mirrors are still connected to the Eluvian in the remains of Arlathan, which is might have been blighted along with the Deep Roads and spread the taint that way - or that the mirrors all can connect to the source of the taint itself and that the Eluvian in Arlathan started spreading the taint and the darkspawn into the Deep Roads.

Well, per the wiki, the Eluvian can transmit the Blight disease, which may mean that someone using the Eluvian can carry the disease across, or the mirror projects the disease outward.

Merrill has the mirror from the Dalish elf origin and is able to cleanse it of its taint (albeit with a demon's assistance). So how did that mirror become tainted? Was it 'broken' first and then tainted? Maybe the mirrors are broken when the Blight is carried through them - so while the disease will remain intact on someone/something using the Eluvian as a portal, maybe some Blight residue clings to the mirror, eventually corrupting it.

Then again, maybe the mirrors are very literal. They reflect what faces them and project an image outward. If something tainted/vile/corrupt looked into one, maybe the magics bounced the "image" of that vileness outward, and thus the Taint was brought to the lands.

[tanarri23]

It's possible that the darkspawn stumbled upon an Eluvian or two that ended up underground (there must have been quite a few in Arlathan) and tainted them like they taint everything else. And if those were still somewhat functional at the time, one tainted Eluvian could infect all others it was connected to...

[Rifneno]

Ginkeh wrote...

 I have a feeling the taint originates from when the humans first started interacting with the elves.The elves were infected with human diseases and started dying of natural causes, and they started aging.
According to the wiki, the elves " rather than fight, the elves chose to flee and that with magic, demons, and even dragons at their behest, the Tevinter magisters used their great destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole, destroying eons of collected knowledge, culture, and art."
I believe sometime during this chaos and cruelness, the taint emerged somehow (see bolded part above), maybe when Arlathan was destroyed.

I don't know... Thedas may not know how diseases work but we (and more importantly, the Bioware writers) do. Viruses and bacteria are everywhere. Some rare diseases are regional but there's no way elves wouldn't have come in contact with human disease whether they met humans or not.

I still wonder what became of Arlathan... Perhaps the Primeval Thaig is actually part of--holy ****! I was going to mention that ring in the Primeval Thaig, "Carved Ring of the Vhenadahl" and how it sounded elven. I figured I'd check around to see if there was any other mention of "Vhenadahl." There is; it's a symbol of Arlathan. Now remember Bartrand talking about how the Thaig was completely unlike any dwarven thaig. Also that the thaig was beneath, not in, the Deep Roads. Now let's remember the codex on the Profane.

We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard.
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane.

If the Primeval Thaig was actually Arlathan, this makes perfect sense. The injustice forced upon them was the Tevinter Magisters sinking their city deep into the Earth. And why would dwarves be going hungry in a thaig? Their cities should be self-sufficient underground, but not Arlathan. This even explains what the Tevinters were doing in Kirkwall. They weren't entering the Fade to get to the golden city there, they were amassing the incredible energy it would take to sink the (relatively) nearby Arlathan.

:o:o:o:o

Modifié par Rifneno, 03 août 2011 - 11:53 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Rifneno - I think you and I were talking about the profane and the lyrium idol on another thread - the whole connection between the profane having feasted upon the gods and how Bartrand made his servants eat chunks of the idol. It all comes back to that pesky idol. Which begs questions like 'is the red lyrium actually a tainted form?' and 'is the red lyrium holding the essence of something?' Old god? Older than old god? Was it a channeling object for the powers/magics used to breach the Golden City?

My only hesitation regarding the thaig being Arlathan is that it doesn't have 'enough' elven architecture/decor/etc within it. It still looks very dwarven, though alien in some way. Maybe it was a dwarven-Elven hybrid. Which isn't to say it's not a valid theory - I just remain full of (more) questions.