125 réponses à ce sujet

[ReallyRue]

Thanks for the link to the Idol pic. It's strange how it looks as though the couple are almost climbing desperately out of the green thingy covered in red.

jlb524 wrote...

I just wonder why Cory thought he was in dwarven lands when he first woke up...especially considering how open to the surrounding area/sky his prison was...he had to sense he wasn't underground.

Aren't the Old Gods supposed to be somewhere within the Deep Roads? So maybe he assumed. He also tries to communicate with Dumat when he wakes.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Yes, I think it is a really weird depiction. I definitely couldn't relate it to any of the events. The funny thing though is that neither of the figures appear dwarven in form. They look more human. Which makes it all the more strange. It could mean either that the idol isn't dwarven in origin, or that ancient dwarves for some reason made idols like it. The former seems unlikely because the idol is made of red lyrium - stuff found in that thaig, stuff more importantly none other than the dwarves can safely handle. Neither of which I admit makes any sense in the context of what I know.

[whykikyouwhy]

Maybe its back to the Anne Rice reference - the first vampires, the first darkspawn. This time depicted as as a creation motif - and from their union, the taint was born?

Were the 5 magisters all male btw? Do we even know?

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@jlb524 - aren't there giant dwarf statues in the tower where he awakens? But even if not, it's probably a hint to where he may have been originally vanquished, or where he entered the city from...?

I thought the dwarven statues were outside.  I need to check a pic to make sure.

It might mean nothing, but I thought it to be odd, especially considering he was talking to a bunch of non-dwarves (minus Varric if you've taken him).

[ReallyRue]

I don't think it's mentioned that they are male. The only one we really know about (I think) is Corypheus... and maybe the Architect.

I just noticed on the Wiki about Tevinter, that it says it took a sacrifice of 'thousands of slaves' to send the five Magisters into the Fade. I wonder why so many? Even if it presumably it takes more to transport someone directly to the City, I'm not sure why. Unless it has some kind of defences maybe, to make it harder for people to get in.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Maybe its back to the Anne Rice reference - the first vampires, the first darkspawn. This time depicted as as a creation motif - and from their union, the taint was born?

Were the 5 magisters all male btw? Do we even know?

The first darkspawn? And the origins of the taint? An interesting thought. I'm not entirely sure some union was required for the taint to be born - but you never know.

And till now I was assuming someone created the idol. What if, though, it was somehow formed on its own? Like some event, some picture was forged into the shape of an idol?

I haven't played Legacy to know, but is it said that only 5 magisters entered the Golden/Black City? And I don't think it is anywhere suggested that all magisters were male.

Anyway. I'm off for now. I'll check back in later.

EDIT: Putting the one I replied to in context.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 03 août 2011 - 06:34 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@ReallyRue - blood magic perhaps? A proper blood sacrifice? Unless there is a way to extract lifeforce without physical blood. And since its Tevinter we're talking about, the slaves may have been lyrium-enhanced like Fenris, which would add an extra kick to their power conduit, I would think.

[ReallyRue]

@Queen-of-Stuff, ah, if they need to transport their physical bodies, then I can see why so much power would be necessary. Although that makes me wonder why they'd want to transport their whole bodies when their conciousness would suffice (and presumably be safer). But I suppose that's Tevinters for you - if you're going to do something outlandish, might as well do it with bows and ribbons on.

[Fallstar]

I think its really just philosophical, depending on when you classify something to be a god; if its just a really powerful being, then yes, I think the Old Gods were 'gods'. If you view it as something with the potential to create life - the only real difference between the Old Gods and stories about the Maker - then no, they are not.

I honestly think that the Dragon Age team keep raising questions and plotlines, and very few of them have received any kind of closure. This is either really good news, meaning we are going to get lots more games, or its really going to suck as the last couple of games/game will give us no sense of closure.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So the Maker could have been "a" god, or a powerful entity, and was probably such a being seeking, in his own regard and reason, to undermine the Old Gods.

This kind of touches on some other threads.  But something occurs to me here that didn't before.

The Maker is believed to be a god or godlike being.  You've theorized that he wanted to undermine the old gods, a pretty logical theory.

The dalish worship a being called the Dread Wolf. The DW, in their own spiritual teachings, was on something of a vendetta against anything that exhibited godlike tendencies.

Coincidence?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

[Rez275]

I've always believed that there are in actuality, only a small subset of deific or godlike beings, however with many or all of them having many aliases, which could explain away the inter-pantheon examples conveniently being similar.

I also have a suspicion, that the Maker may very well be a being that is similar in nature to "God" from the Berserk manga if any of you have read or heard of it.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Well, the Tevinters now may not believe in the Maker. I'm not entirely certain, and would need to check.

I think that they do.  The Imperial Chantry is an offshoot of the Andrastian Chantry, with its power centered in Tevinter.

The Imperial Chantry has some differing beliefs with the Andrastians.  For one, the Imperials believe Andraste was not divine, and was only a normal, mortal woman.  They also believe that when the Magisters entered the Golden City, the Maker rewarded Tevinter by creating the Darkspawn to scourge Tevinter's enemies.

On a side note, I can see at least part of the historical inspiration for the two Chantry's.  In the 4th Century AD, the Council of Nicaea met to determine a number of questions of the relatively new Christian faith.  One of the hot button issues was that a small group of church leaders, lead by Arius, denied that Christ was the divine son of God, that He was not the earthly embodiment of the living God.  The Council decided against Arius by a vote of around 300 to 2 (exact number of attendees is disputed; number was between 250 and 318.  It is known that Arius only got two votes).

In Dragon Age, the schism between the Andrastian Chantry and the Tevinter Chantry over the divinity of Andraste is pretty clear.  You can easily compare the Andrastians to the early Roman Catholics, and the Imperials to the faction lead by Arius.  Unlike in real history, however, Arianism never gained a significant foot hold, whereas the Imperial Chantry is a pretty large organized religion in Thedas.

[Bazedragon]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
5. How does Corytheus call to the darkspawn, as the Archdemons do? Corypheus is, at heart, a mage, so he probably can tap into compulsion and coercion magics - probably amplified by the Taint and perhaps traveling like a voice within the Fade. This might be another good wiki check.

All the magister devotees of Dumat were also powerful blood mages (the Old god himself rumoured to have taught them). Blood mages also have the ability to dominate minds. This could be why he is so powerful over Wardens.

[macrocarl]

I'm confused about the Architect. Is he definitely darkspawn and not a Magister as well? Or is he more of a next generation down from Cory and that's why he has intelligence and immunity to blah blah singing or whatever? Sorry I'm so tired right now my brain feels hairy. I tried to wiki him but he's listed as darkspawn, which I thought he was but he looked a lot like Cory. Speaks creepy, asymmetrical face, kind of melty looking etc. Also the Mother? What's her deal? Is the Architect and the Mother like a screwed up Adam and Eve?

[whykikyouwhy]

macrocarl wrote...

I'm confused about the Architect. Is he definitely darkspawn and not a Magister as well? Or is he more of a next generation down from Cory and that's why he has intelligence and immunity to blah blah singing or whatever? Sorry I'm so tired right now my brain feels hairy. I tried to wiki him but he's listed as darkspawn, which I thought he was but he looked a lot like Cory. Speaks creepy, asymmetrical face, kind of melty looking etc. Also the Mother? What's her deal? Is the Architect and the Mother like a screwed up Adam and Eve?

I don't believe that the Architect has been officially declared one thing/entity vs another. The general concensus seems to be that he is a magister, or at least was somehow affiliated with the group that went into the Golden City, but that's all speculation at this point. He relates that he doesn't remember how he came to be - he just was. That may or may not be the truth.

I'd have to look into the Mother more. Interesting that you refer to them as a screwed-up Adam and Eve though - that might hearken in some way to the lyrium idol that MichaelFinnegan was talking about, and the figures visible on it. I think the idol is older than either the Mother or the Architect, but what if they were the progeny of an original pairing that helped spread the Blight?

EDITED to add...

jamesp81 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So the Maker could have been "a" god, or a powerful entity, and was probably such a being seeking, in his own regard and reason, to undermine the Old Gods.

This kind of touches on some other threads.  But something occurs to me here that didn't before.

The Maker is believed to be a god or godlike being.  You've theorized that he wanted to undermine the old gods, a pretty logical theory.

The dalish worship a being called the Dread Wolf. The DW, in their own spiritual teachings, was on something of a vendetta against anything that exhibited godlike tendencies.

Coincidence?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

I'm not sure what thread I have posted this on, but I think that there is some duality going on with the gods, or at the very least, with the Maker. I have a suspicion that the Maker is an older entity that the Chantry has adopted as their own. So maybe the Dread Wolf - give him a new name, a new look, a new persona in order to make way for a new faith. The same core god and powers, but painted a different color and reformed to the Chantry's will. How this diminishes the actual power of a god, I'm not sure, though it can be argued that no god is powerful without worship. So if the way a god is worshipped changes, perhaps so do his/her powers.

Really reaching there and getting a bit philosophical, but... 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 03 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[ReallyRue]

@macrocarl, the Architect as a Magister is becoming quite a popular theory, though I don't think anyone really knows. It's a logical conclusion to reach though, especially when you consider that he might not have been entirely honest with the Warden, or has been in solitude/forgotten over the years. There are striking similarities between his appearance and Corypheus' and the control they both exert over other darkspawn.

Bazedragon wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
5. How does Corytheus call to the darkspawn, as the Archdemons do? Corypheus is, at heart, a mage, so he probably can tap into compulsion and coercion magics - probably amplified by the Taint and perhaps traveling like a voice within the Fade. This might be another good wiki check.

All the magister devotees of Dumat were also powerful blood mages (the Old god himself rumoured to have taught them). Blood mages also have the ability to dominate minds. This could be why he is so powerful over Wardens.

Hmm, is that why his call is more effective on Anders too? Because of his link to the Fade, as a mage (especially a blood mage, they can do into dreams and manipulate them too, yes?), and because Anders' mind is already weakened by Justice.

[TEWR]

macrocarl wrote...

I'm confused about the Architect. Is he definitely darkspawn and not a Magister as well? Or is he more of a next generation down from Cory and that's why he has intelligence and immunity to blah blah singing or whatever? Sorry I'm so tired right now my brain feels hairy. I tried to wiki him but he's listed as darkspawn, which I thought he was but he looked a lot like Cory. Speaks creepy, asymmetrical face, kind of melty looking etc. Also the Mother? What's her deal? Is the Architect and the Mother like a screwed up Adam and Eve?

The Architect seems to be like Corypheus: A Magister who became a Darkspawn.

However that doesn't mean Corypheus and the other Magisters were the first Darkspawn. It wouldn't really make much sense. There wouldn't have been any mindless Darkspawn for them to control, and the women become broodmothers through a very painful process in terms of body and spirit. The process is more than just "oh they're tainted."

I'd also say the whole relationship between the Architect and the Mother is more of a Dr. Frankenstein and Frankenstein's monster type of thing.

[Bazedragon]

ReallyRue wrote...
Hmm, is that why his call is more effective on Anders too? Because of his link to the Fade, as a mage (especially a blood mage, they can do into dreams and manipulate them too, yes?), and because Anders' mind is already weakened by Justice.

Personally, I'd say the taint is a more important factor in what happens with Anders, otherwise I'd suspect we'd get some kind of dialogue from Merril (assuming you do it before act 3), though having not done it with a Warden sibling, I don't know if they are affected at all, so I can't be sure.

[Darius Vir]

The Mother was "just" a broodmother that the Architect detached from the Call of the Old Gods.  IIRC.  I capitalize Call because there's something seriously freaky and important going on with the song of the Old Gods, Idol. and apparently Black City itself. 

Regarding the Maker.... I think it's a matter of degree.  One side is basically the existence of the being that is essentially exactly what the Chantry describes.  The opposite side is that it's completely made up, and there is no such being or anything close to it. 

The identity of the Maker has to be the mystery of all mysteries for the Dragon Age setting.  So while I'm confident that we actually will get some answers to a lot of these questions, a lot of the statements from the devs and Gaider make me consider we won't ever really find out about the Maker.

It seems to me that the most likely answer, given what we know thus far, is that there is some being that the Chantry's Maker is based on, but it isn't quite what a devout Andrastian would expect.  Maybe it's Fen'Harel, maybe it's something else.  And the similarity of said being to the Maker we've heard of could go to a greater or lesser extent. 

Plus, you know.  The fact that the Chantry states that the Chant of Light (and by extension the Chantry itself)just HAS TO be spread to all four corners of the world before the Maker comes back should be setting off warning bells to an epic degree. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 04 août 2011 - 12:56 .

[Iosev]

Corypheus being a Tevinter Magister makes me wonder:

Given his ability to affect the minds of others while he slept, does anyone think that Corypheus may have been a Dreamer like Feynriel? Perhaps dreamers also have the ability of inception (i.e., creating thoughts into others and making them believe that their thoughts and actions are their own).

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

arcelonious wrote...

Corypheus being a Tevinter Magister makes me wonder:

Given his ability to affect the minds of others while he slept, does anyone think that Corypheus may have been a Dreamer like Feynriel? Perhaps dreamers also have the ability of inception (i.e., creating thoughts into others and making them believe that their thoughts and actions are their own).

Yes, I believe Corypheus does have these same abilities and that he is a dreamer.  I'd also assume being a high placed Tevinter Magister you will have more spell knowledge than the average mage.  He clearly states that he is a Magister and Hawke and Company must bow down to him in fealty.  He as good as told us he is a Magister. 

I'd imagine that dreamers and blood magic go hand in hand.  I believe all of the Tevinter Magisters were blood mages and they still are to the current time in DA.

I also just wanted to say per the old gods and dragons.  I'm more inclined to think that the Old Gods have human shapeshifting abilities instead of the other way around.  I'm also inclined to think they will also be able to shapeshift into dwarves, elves, and Qunari. 

Also, per the maker and the fade.  I believe it is said somewhere in the game that when a person dies that they pass through to the fade onto the maker.  The maker is beyond the fade somewhere, which to me speaks of being somewhere else.  Another plane or world or a corresponding city to the fade. 

What if....when the magisters entered the golden city they came up against a black barrier that tainted them somehow?  I see where this is possible.   We saw with Merrill how she gained entry to the graveyard with bloodmagic.  She opened the barrier protecting the dead of the elves. 

I was also under the impression that the taint was caused by the Maker himself.  I know this is the chantry teaching.  The only thing different with the new dlc is that we've discovered Dumat tricked the Magisters.  This is really the only thing that we learned.

Morrigan also said she was going beyond the fade when she walked through the mirror.  Which suggested to me that she was going to find the maker. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 04 août 2011 - 06:27 .

[macrocarl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

I'm confused about the Architect. Is he definitely darkspawn and not a Magister as well? Or is he more of a next generation down from Cory and that's why he has intelligence and immunity to blah blah singing or whatever? Sorry I'm so tired right now my brain feels hairy. I tried to wiki him but he's listed as darkspawn, which I thought he was but he looked a lot like Cory. Speaks creepy, asymmetrical face, kind of melty looking etc. Also the Mother? What's her deal? Is the Architect and the Mother like a screwed up Adam and Eve?

The Architect seems to be like Corypheus: A Magister who became a Darkspawn.

However that doesn't mean Corypheus and the other Magisters were the first Darkspawn. It wouldn't really make much sense. There wouldn't have been any mindless Darkspawn for them to control, and the women become broodmothers through a very painful process in terms of body and spirit. The process is more than just "oh they're tainted."

I'd also say the whole relationship between the Architect and the Mother is more of a Dr. Frankenstein and Frankenstein's monster type of thing.

So the Architect built/ grew/ mutated the Mother? Is that how that went in Awakenings? I can't remember. Also, do we know that the Magisters controlled darkspawn and weren't the first batch? I am weak in DA lore. Sorry if this is a repeat question. Honestly, I wasn't really all that interested until Legacy......... It's now my favorite Lore bit next to What The Hell Is Flemeth. :happy:

[TEWR]

well, The Mother is a human broodmother that the Architect gave his Joining to.


As for the Magisters, we do know they could control Darkspawn. As for being the first Darkspawn, I highly doubt they were the first. Here's what I wrote on another thread:

Avernus' notes mention a connection between the taint and the Black City, but Corypheus implies it was always black, which means it was always tainted.

An Awakened Darkspawn is just that. One that is free from the call of the Old Gods. The Disciples, The Architect, and Corypheus are Awakened Darkspawn.

Also, it doesn't make sense for him to be one of the first Darkspawn, for varying reasons:

1) he can't hear the Old Gods, so he couldn't have sought them out.
2) Dwarves encountered Genlocks long before humanity ever did, possibly before the raid on the supposed Golden City if it ever was Golden.
3) Females of each race become broodmothers through a painful process in terms of both body and spirit that involves more than just being tainted, as Hespith's poem indicates.

And I doubt that Corypheus, or any other awakened Darkspawn, could've known how to make Broodmothers. I'm willing to bet the only way mindless Darkspawn know is due to instinct.

What's also interesting is that in the battle with Meredith, during a certain cutscene you can hear the same whispering you hear in the Joining ritual at Ostagar and when you become a Reaver. Which indicates to me that the lyrium idol is connected to the Darkspawn, and as we know the Old Gods for some reason have something to do with other dragons (since you fight one in the battle of Denerim before fighting the Archdemon)