183 réponses à ce sujet

[Swimming Ferret]

Attempting to force your species view of right and wrong on an alien specie is racist and arrogant, as said by Legion. I re-wrote them, so the geth could be one once again.

[rapscallioness]

I rewrote them, but it was a tough choice. The heretics were poised to brainwash all the other Geth that didn't agree with them. Most likely w/ some nudging from the Reapers. Even if we destroyed only the virus, and blew up the Geth present, there were still other Geth heretics out there. And I'm pretty sure they would have tried to brainwash the others again.

I don't consider it brainwashing...more like an intervention. Bringing them back in to talk it out some more. Rescuing them from a cult...Ha!. But it is a fuzzy choice. They are changing if Legion is any example. He got shot up on Eden Prime, but waited until he found Shepard's armor at the crash site to fix himself. There's some hero worship going on even tho I don't think he understands it, or what could have possibly motivated him to do that.

But they're changing, so even tho I don't want to see it as brainwashing, or reverse brainwashing. Ppl willingly get into things that are bad for them all the time. And Yes, I do think the Reapers would have ended up being bad for them. The Reapers love fiddling w/ stuff. Would they really have just let them go w/ some tasty tech? Or would the Reapers have tried to....assimilate them. Mess around w/ their gears and what not? I think they would have. I think they were being played for fools. The Reapers have no loyalty for anything. They'll throw you under the bus first chance they get, if they can't use you anymore.

In ME1 Saren told you that the Reapers were only using the Geth. They were actually disgusted by them and their adoration.

Mind you, I didn't rewrite them for such noble causes as to help them out the Reaper cult. I'm building an army. If it bites me in the ass, then I'll shoot up some more Geth. But when weighing such a gray choice, I thought about these things.

[Weskerr]

Mesina2 wrote...


You're killing Geth faction called Heretics.

So it's like killing a nation and big part of it.
It's genocide or at least ethnic cleansing, which is just as bad.


Just because it's a good military action, it doesn't mean it's morally good.

A faction is not the same as ethnicity or race. The Geth are totally homogenous sentient robots - all of them. It's not accurate to say that that the Heretics and True Geth are different enthnically or racially. The difference is that the heretic geth have sided with the Reapers and attacked other sentient species in what can safely be called acts of war (the attack on Edin Prime and on the Citadel) while the true geth have not sided with the Reapers and have made no hostile actions or engaged in acts of war against any species ( with the exception of the Quarian/Geth conflict which WAS an attempt at genocide by the Quarians against the Geth and the latter defended themselves).

If you consider the heretics to be like a nation, then you should consider them an aggresive and hostile one who has attacked neighboring nations. Blowing up the heretic station is then like destroying their army and thus ending their capacity to wage war against other nations. Destroying an army is not genocide or ethnic cleansing. Would you consider destroying every last Reaper to be genocide or ethnic cleansing. If you do, is it immoral to do so?

[Goneaviking]

Weskerr wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.


It's either genocide or brainwashing.

Brainwashing, yes. Genocide - not at all. The heretic Geth are a small percentage of the Geth and they have been openly hostile and violant towards other species. So killing them is only killing a small percentage of the Geth as a whole - and therefore not genocide - and is also a response to an act of war. Killing the enemy in a war is not immoral, but a strategically sound objective. And as all the heretic Geth are soldiers, there is no fear of killing innocent civilians.

Actually according to the legal definition genocide doesn't require an effort to kill the entire people, a segment of that peope will meet the criteria that the UN Convention used to define the crime.

So yeah, the choice is genocide or brainwashing.

Whatever you do no amount of scrubbing is going to rub that loyalty mission off of Shepard.

[Bazedragon]

Personally, I'd say that if you accompany "rewriting" the Heretics, and trying to convince the Quarians to not engage in open war, it could be good. Hell, maybe we'll see peace and co-operation.

Purely speculation, though.

[Reptillius]

This choice is meant to be a moral dilemma... While some classify it as between Brainwashing and Genocide...

It can be broken down a little more simply... You can actually look at it from the base moral grounds of giving a second chance vs. complete punishment for their crimes to date.

Do you use the virus to try to reintigrate them in hopes of a better outcome for the rest of the races and more importantly the division between the Geth themselves? Or do you destroy the "heretics" for their violence and behaviors against the other species of the Universe on the behalf of the Reapers?

obviously giving them a second chance is a more forgiving a.k.a. Paragon like choice... Punishing them is more of a hardline a.k.a. renegade choice...

I have honestly done both and will see how they play out. But My Paragon Shepard will certainly consider it mostly an act of giving not just those geth but all geth a chance at redemption.

Something of note to keep in mind... There can be simple correlations drawn between the virus rewriting and our own penal systems attempts at reforming(rewriting) the behavior of criminals.

Modifié par Reptillius, 03 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[marshalleck]

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.


It's either genocide 

People really need to stop casually throwing this word around. It has a very specific definition which is not appropriate for the heretic geth base decision. By casually and inappropriately invoking this term you debase it and rob it of its veracity in instances of real crimes against humanity.

Anyways, I always blow them up. It's said in-game there's no guarantee rewriting them will prevent them from once again coming to a decision to support the Reapers, and I don't want to have to deal with them twice. Blowing up the base is taking out a high value target of opportunity. Any remaining heretic geth will be dealt with as they're encountered.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 août 2011 - 10:45 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Goneaviking wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.


It's either genocide or brainwashing.

Brainwashing, yes. Genocide - not at all. The heretic Geth are a small percentage of the Geth and they have been openly hostile and violant towards other species. So killing them is only killing a small percentage of the Geth as a whole - and therefore not genocide - and is also a response to an act of war. Killing the enemy in a war is not immoral, but a strategically sound objective. And as all the heretic Geth are soldiers, there is no fear of killing innocent civilians.

Actually according to the legal definition genocide doesn't require an effort to kill the entire people, a segment of that peope will meet the criteria that the UN Convention used to define the crime.

So yeah, the choice is genocide or brainwashing.

Whatever you do no amount of scrubbing is going to rub that loyalty mission off of Shepard.

 The UN Convention criteria would still stipulate that that segment of people would be being targeted on racial or ethic grounds; if there was a kill-switch to wipe out all confessed members of Al-Qaeda, that would not be genocide

[LilyasAvalon]

Geth see things from a logical rather than emotional viewpoint. By rewriting them, you gain more support because you gain more Legion-like geth, which I personally think is awesome. By destroying them, you blow a hole in the reapers support.

It's not really indoctrination anyway, it's like changing the data given to a compute and isn't that much different to what the Reapers did in the first place.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 03 août 2011 - 10:35 .

[Clonedzero]

marshalleck wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.


It's either genocide 

People really need to stop casually throwing this word around. It has a very specific definition which is not appropriate for the heretic geth base decision. By casually and inappropriately invoking this term you debase it and rob it of its veracity in instances of real crimes against humanity.

Anyways, I always blow them up. It's said in-game there's no guarantee rewriting them will prevent them from once again coming to a decision to support the Reapers, and I don't want to have to deal with them twice. Blowing up the base is taking out a high value target of opportunity. Any remaining heretic geth will be dealt with as they're encountered.

yeah, it also bugs me when people call killing the rachni queen genocide

[Seboist]

Either choice removes a galactic threat. They're both very moral things to do.

[Goneaviking]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.


It's either genocide or brainwashing.

Brainwashing, yes. Genocide - not at all. The heretic Geth are a small percentage of the Geth and they have been openly hostile and violant towards other species. So killing them is only killing a small percentage of the Geth as a whole - and therefore not genocide - and is also a response to an act of war. Killing the enemy in a war is not immoral, but a strategically sound objective. And as all the heretic Geth are soldiers, there is no fear of killing innocent civilians.

Actually according to the legal definition genocide doesn't require an effort to kill the entire people, a segment of that peope will meet the criteria that the UN Convention used to define the crime.

So yeah, the choice is genocide or brainwashing.

Whatever you do no amount of scrubbing is going to rub that loyalty mission off of Shepard.

 The UN Convention criteria would still stipulate that that segment of people would be being targeted on racial or ethic grounds; if there was a kill-switch to wipe out all confessed members of Al-Qaeda, that would not be genocide

Article 2 begins with: "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts
committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnical, racial or religious group..."

If the geth heretic's separation from the rest of their community was the result of religious conviction as claimed by ME1 then the convention applies. That isn't to say that a reasonable argument can't be made that their extermination is the better choice, whether strategically or morally, than re-writing them but genocide is a big word and should be understood by anyone who makes a call as to when and where it's applicable.

The al-Qaeda analogy is flawed, al-Qaeda is a criminal and terrorist organisation, it doesn't fulfill the criteria of being a national, ethnic, racial or religious body.

[Homebound]

Heres the thing, if you dont re-write the heretic-geth, they WILL end up fighting against the true-geth.
Its a choice of, would you rather let them join the true-geth again, or kill them?

Modifié par Hellbound555, 03 août 2011 - 11:56 .

[sephiroth199127]

Its a interesting moral dilemma which is discussed well in this video

http://www.escapistm...Enriching-Lives

Personally i would kill them since they are given a fighting chance.

EDIT:Beaten to it i see

Modifié par sephiroth199127, 03 août 2011 - 11:58 .

[jshadow]

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.

Only from a human point of view.

Legion once said: "No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own
merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign
anthropomorphism."

In other words, you must look at it from Geth state of mind, think like a freaking machine. In which case, Rewriting is better, destruction is only a waste of valuble data and resources.

Modifié par jshadow, 03 août 2011 - 12:29 .

[CannotCompute]

If you want a bigger Geth army to fight against the Reapers, rewriting is the way to go. It might be brainwashing, yeah, but destroying them would be such a waste.

[Ghost Warrior]

I rewrote them,but to me this was the hardest decision in ME2. Just like with the rachni in ME1.

[Quething]

jshadow wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.

Only from a human point of view.

Legion once said: "No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own
merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign
anthropomorphism."

In other words, you must look at it from Geth state of mind, think like a freaking machine. In which case, Rewriting is better, destruction is only a waste of valuble data and resources.

Except Legion itself says that the highest virtue of geth philosophy is that all sentient life has the right to self-determinate. Removing the Heretics' ability to make their own choices (and thus suffer the consequences, like getting blown up by dead Spectres) is anethema to geth philosophy and the geth's own system of judgement and merit.

[Siven80]

I rewote them

It is not brainwashing as Legion says so and hes the expert on this being a geth himself, human ideals have nothing to do with it.

I believe the rewrite option also allowed all geth to have the memories and info of the heretics available to them also, so some geth may then decide to still break away.

Though personally i see it as an example of illusion of choice. Either way you will still fight Geth heretics, either some geth who werent connected to the station when it was blown up, or geth ho after rewritten still broke away.

The benefits of either decision will be minor at best and probably still available but with more difficulty if you chose the other path.

[TobyHasEyes]

I blew them up. Shepard can ask Legion if there is any guarantee that it will be permanent, and he said there is not. I respect the Geth, but a branch movement that intends to wipe out other forms of life I also respect (the organic races) then they are too dangerous to keep going

[budzai]

Quething wrote...

jshadow wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.

Only from a human point of view.

Legion once said: "No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own
merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign
anthropomorphism."

In other words, you must look at it from Geth state of mind, think like a freaking machine. In which case, Rewriting is better, destruction is only a waste of valuble data and resources.

Except Legion itself says that the highest virtue of geth philosophy is that all sentient life has the right to self-determinate. Removing the Heretics' ability to make their own choices (and thus suffer the consequences, like getting blown up by dead Spectres) is anethema to geth philosophy and the geth's own system of judgement and merit.

Expect the Heretics had lost their self-determinate before that.... They was brain washed by the reapers ^^

[Urazz]

I destroyed them because we have no idea if it will have ramifications on the Geth in some form or if it will be permanent.

Modifié par Urazz, 03 août 2011 - 01:15 .

[didymos1120]

budzai wrote...


Expect the Heretics had lost their self-determinate before that.... They was brain washed by the reapers ^^

No they weren't.  Sovereign made an offer to the geth.  The Heretics were the ones who accepted it.  Think about it: if they'd been brainwashed, then why didn't ALL the geth join Sovvy?  Besides, just listen to the dialogue:

Legion: "The heretics desired to leave. We understood their reasons. We allowed it. There was peace between us."

Or read the Codex:

Conversations with the geth programs dubbed "Legion" have brought to light a profound schism in geth society. When Saren Arterius approached the geth in the dreadnought Sovereign, some of them chose to follow him; most did not. Saren’s followers were allowed to leave geth society, but were dubbed "heretics" by those that remained.