183 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Oh nice this thread again. Repost:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

What happened is what Legion described, I'm not sure an analogy can do more than cloud the issue.

Sovereign and the Geth came into contact. Most Geth did not want anything to do with it. Some Geth did. Up until this point, Geth had the same perspective but different though processes. The Heretic group separated from the collective to further the interests of Sovereign, their new leader. Over the course of their service and separation from the Orthodox Geth, both groups retained their different thought process but also gained different perspectives. For example, the Orthodox Geth had never met Shepard until the derelict Reaper encounter, whereas the Heretics had fought him numerous times. In pursuit of Sovereign's goals, they made war on the Citadel races and eventually planned to deploy a virus that would alter the thought process of the Orthodox Geth into joining their cause.

So eventually Legion presents Shepard with an opportunity to rewrite the Heretic Geth thought process and return them to the Orthodox collective. What the virus cannot change is the unique perspective the Heretic Geth have gained through their separation, thus making them inherently and irreversibly different than the Orthodox Geth regardless of how reprogrammed their thought process attempts to make them homogeneous.

Legion states that while the Heretic Geth would come around to the idea that being in Sovereign's service was wrong, he can't predict much else about their future behavior and due to a lack of consensus, defers to Shepard - whose perspective is sharper than the Orthodox Geth given Shepard's significant contact with the Heretics.

The above is more or less, the complete description of the scenario we're presented with. I'd argue it doesn't fit cleanly into any human analogy - so using them is problematic.

Based on the information above, I destroyed the Heretic base to preserve the Orthodox Geth as Legion has explained them to me - especially their adherence to self-determination. The introduction of the Heretics would in my estimation prove to be a destabilizing element that I could not afford to risk given the stakes - both the impending Reaper Invasion and any hope for peace with the Quarians.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 août 2011 - 01:31 .

[CroGamer002]

marshalleck wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.


It's either genocide 

People really need to stop casually throwing this word around. It has a very specific definition which is not appropriate for the heretic geth base decision. By casually and inappropriately invoking this term you debase it and rob it of its veracity in instances of real crimes against humanity.

Elaborate.

[KyreneZA]

Not that it matters much, but even Tali thinks the re-writing is wrong. Legion states that pockets of heretics will 'live' even after Shepard blows up the base. Shepard therefore blows up the base to get rid of most of the heretics (an act of war, sure, but because of the survivors not an act of genocide), but allow the remainder to still self-determine, even if they are enemies. It's an act of mercy, rather than righting the Reaper's wrong with yet another mass indoctronation.

[Someone With Mass]

Technically, it is genocide, if the heretics were a couple of millions in numbers.

[Barquiel]

Rewriting means Shep could have more allies against the reapers...that's why I "brainwashed" them.

[upsettingshorts]

Kyrene wrote...

Not that it matters much, but even Tali thinks the re-writing is wrong.

Like I value her or almost any other Quarians' input on ethics.  

Someone With Mass wrote...

Technically, it is genocide, if the heretics were a couple of millions in numbers.

Genocide does not equal "action that causes a lot of death." 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 août 2011 - 02:00 .

[Someone With Mass]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Genocide does not equal "action that causes a lot of death." 

gen·o·cide:

The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

I think the heretics fits into that.

[Masquerade_Assassin]

I figured the rewrite was better, so I could demonstrate neutrality amongst the quarian race and geth race. Legion (so other geth too) know that you have a quarian on board and the Migrant Fleet. You helped Tali stay a member by recapturing the lost freighter. You support the Quarians. If you rewrote the geth your supporting them by increasing numbers.

Also Shepard said to Liara in your cabin, that humanity deserves a second chance or something like that. It's a bit hypocritical to say that and not offer the geth a second chance.

[upsettingshorts]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think the heretics fits into that.

Nope, you're killing them because they're actively engaged in hostilities with you and their position rules out co-existence.

It is a military decision to destroy your enemy.  Geth do not have civilians.

Applying organic ethics to the Geth decision is illogical, Legion even says so. 

Also, that definition is uselessly vague.  Not to mention that rewriting them could also fall under - in spirit - the United Nations' definition of genocide as well.  So it doesn't even matter.

( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Obviously the latter two apply more seamlessly to humans, but since no future Heretics would be "born" and all programs would essentially cease to be Heretic and become Orthodox, the nature of the change is - in spirit - the same, because it causes said "group" to cease to exist.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 août 2011 - 02:10 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Genocide does not equal "action that causes a lot of death." 

gen·o·cide:

The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

I think the heretics fits into that.

 They fit the description of an ethnic group or nation? They are a small percentage of a race, who are united only in their absolute shared commitment to wiping out organic life (which they are acting upon)

 As I say, were there such a human organisation existing in the world, flipping a killswitch on them would not be an act of genocide

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 03 août 2011 - 02:11 .

[spanbob1]

I rewote them and legion said the geth is buliding a base in space so i think the new geth they have will help build the base before the quarian geth war which will end in both geth and quarians helping shepard defeat the reapers:innocent:

[Nero Narmeril]

I destroyed the heretics. Legion said, that is little chance (but always chance), that Reapers can again turned heretics against rest of geths. So, I definitely fixed the problem with them.

But seriously, I had to toss-up, and the coin pointed on destroying them.

[eye basher]

legion says so himself morals are an organic concept that doen't aply to the geth because there not alive.

[KyreneZA]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Not that it matters much, but even Tali thinks the re-writing is wrong.

Like I value her or almost any other Quarians' input on ethics.  

Therefore the "Not that it matters much". It is interesting to note that Legion, who has the best insight into the matter, thinks it's better (by 2 votes; something far less than a quarter of one percent) to re-write.

[Kane Corr]

Weskerr wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

To me, the geth aren't comparable to human morality and code. It's not the same "brainwashing" as is doing it to a human. The geth were created...they learn in their own way. That does NOT make them human. Not one bit. So, I rewrote them. Saw the benefit in having many troops on our side......seeing as their are sentient machines coming who overpower us in every way...

The more allies you have, better of you'll be.

The OP isn't asking about practicality, but about right vs. wrong. Sure, rewriting the Geth will give you an advantage, but it is nothing less than brainwashing. They made the choice to side with the Reapers.

Being human or machine is irrelevant. What matters is sentience. The Asari, Quarians, Krogan, Salarians etc... are not human, but they all have sentience.

But since I said before that, "It's not the same brainwashing as is doing it to a human," then the whole, Right vs. Wrong debate is irrelevant. When it comes down to it...the geth are machines. Bottom line. Sure, they can think for themselves...so what? Don't let Legion's moving facial expressions fool you. They aren't like us. The same rules, same code...it can't be applied. They have no emotions. They see no need for it. They are machine. So, no, I didn't feel bad re-writing them.

Because in all essense, you can say the same for my washer and dryer. I program it to do something, it does it for my benefit....end of story. Very rough analogy there that gets to the base of my point, which was in fact that the geth are robots, so the choice in the end isn't wrong.

Humans, aliens...now that's a different story.

[TobyHasEyes]

Kane Corr wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

To me, the geth aren't comparable to human morality and code. It's not the same "brainwashing" as is doing it to a human. The geth were created...they learn in their own way. That does NOT make them human. Not one bit. So, I rewrote them. Saw the benefit in having many troops on our side......seeing as their are sentient machines coming who overpower us in every way...

The more allies you have, better of you'll be.

The OP isn't asking about practicality, but about right vs. wrong. Sure, rewriting the Geth will give you an advantage, but it is nothing less than brainwashing. They made the choice to side with the Reapers.

Being human or machine is irrelevant. What matters is sentience. The Asari, Quarians, Krogan, Salarians etc... are not human, but they all have sentience.

But since I said before that, "It's not the same brainwashing as is doing it to a human," then the whole, Right vs. Wrong debate is irrelevant. When it comes down to it...the geth are machines. Bottom line. Sure, they can think for themselves...so what? Don't let Legion's moving facial expressions fool you. They aren't like us. The same rules, same code...it can't be applied. They have no emotions. They see no need for it. They are machine. So, no, I didn't feel bad re-writing them.

Because in all essense, you can say the same for my washer and dryer. I program it to do something, it does it for my benefit....end of story. Very rough analogy there that gets to the base of my point, which was in fact that the geth are robots, so the choice in the end isn't wrong.

Humans, aliens...now that's a different story.

 See the 'Are the Geth an abomination?' thread. The exact same rules may apply, as they can not be practically understood in terms of individuality etc. but seeing as though they (for all intents and purposes) appear to be as sentient as you and I then do do require moral consideration

[upsettingshorts]

Note that I don't agree with the washer/dryer analogy either.  Geth are clearly sapient. 

Look I have an old post for that too!  (Don't read into the initial hostility of this post as being directed at you, Kane Coor, it was to the original person I was responding to.)

From later in the same thread:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Is a non-sentient machine a slave?  Calling the pre-"awakening" Geth "slaves" would be like calling your computer a slave.

No, but the second they achieved sentience sapience that changed the entire paradigm.  So for that matter if my
computer started asking me - of its own accord - what a soul was and if they had one, I'd have to seriously re-examine my understanding of it. 

It would also mean that pulling out the power cord would have significant philosophical implications.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 août 2011 - 02:48 .

[Kane Corr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

To me, the geth aren't comparable to human morality and code. It's not the same "brainwashing" as is doing it to a human. The geth were created...they learn in their own way. That does NOT make them human. Not one bit. So, I rewrote them. Saw the benefit in having many troops on our side......seeing as their are sentient machines coming who overpower us in every way...

The more allies you have, better of you'll be.

The OP isn't asking about practicality, but about right vs. wrong. Sure, rewriting the Geth will give you an advantage, but it is nothing less than brainwashing. They made the choice to side with the Reapers.

Being human or machine is irrelevant. What matters is sentience. The Asari, Quarians, Krogan, Salarians etc... are not human, but they all have sentience.

But since I said before that, "It's not the same brainwashing as is doing it to a human," then the whole, Right vs. Wrong debate is irrelevant. When it comes down to it...the geth are machines. Bottom line. Sure, they can think for themselves...so what? Don't let Legion's moving facial expressions fool you. They aren't like us. The same rules, same code...it can't be applied. They have no emotions. They see no need for it. They are machine. So, no, I didn't feel bad re-writing them.

Because in all essense, you can say the same for my washer and dryer. I program it to do something, it does it for my benefit....end of story. Very rough analogy there that gets to the base of my point, which was in fact that the geth are robots, so the choice in the end isn't wrong.

Humans, aliens...now that's a different story.

 See the 'Are the Geth an abomination?' thread. The exact same rules may apply, as they can not be practically understood in terms of individuality etc. but seeing as though they (for all intents and purposes) appear to be as sentient as you and I then do do require moral consideration

See but that's where I draw the line. Sure, they have sentience, but really....they are machine in the end. It just comes down tot he fact that we as organic life, are seperate from the geth. I know that comes off as shortsighted or even closed minded...but in all reality...it's just the truth. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not nice to the geth or treat them with kindness. But, that's because I'm that way in real life. And, if you treat something harshly and allow for yourself to act that way, then you're not actually practicing what you preach.

Nevertheless, I don't sweat the whole, "brainwashing thing" because of my belief in the geth being lesser than us.
(And when I say "lesser", think of the toaster, and nothing else. I don't want my post to turn into something of a fiasco)

[Kane Corr]

And if you do believe that re-writing is wrong....then are you really willing to kill off all of those geth? Seriously, I think it's better to re-write and let them start over, than to simply end their lives. In the end, they'll either choose to join the Reapers, or fight against them. It's like a re-wind button...it's not like they are fully brainwashed, just that they are reset to a neutral time period, so another consensus can be gained, and the Geth as a machine race can be united again.

[upsettingshorts]

Kane Corr wrote...

And if you do believe that re-writing is wrong....then are you really willing to kill off all of those geth? Seriously, I think it's better to re-write and let them start over, than to simply end their lives. In the end, they'll either choose to join the Reapers, or fight against them. It's like a re-wind button...it's not like they are fully brainwashed, just that they are reset to a neutral time period, so another consensus can be gained, and the Geth as a machine race can be united again.

You don't rewrite the Heretic Geth's experiences.  They will always be fundamentally different from the Orthodox, and since I can't predict what that will mean - Legion can't either - I destroy the Heretics to preserve the Orthodox as they are.  

[TobyHasEyes]

 Geth's are machines in the end. But in the end, we are organic goo. In the end, we are both just a combination of atoms. I don't think you are necessarily close minded, but it would be good if there could be a reason given for why being synthetic rather than organic makes you 'lesser'

[Kane Corr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

And if you do believe that re-writing is wrong....then are you really willing to kill off all of those geth? Seriously, I think it's better to re-write and let them start over, than to simply end their lives. In the end, they'll either choose to join the Reapers, or fight against them. It's like a re-wind button...it's not like they are fully brainwashed, just that they are reset to a neutral time period, so another consensus can be gained, and the Geth as a machine race can be united again.

You don't rewrite the Heretic Geth's experiences.  They will always be fundamentally different from the Orthodox, and since I can't predict what that will mean - Legion can't either - I destroy the Heretics to preserve the Orthodox as they are.  

So you destroy them, never offering them the chance to experience true freedom? You'd rather have them follow an abomination like Sovereign, than actually have the chance to possibly live a "normal" life for themselves?

That's where the true debate comes in...

[upsettingshorts]

Kane Corr wrote...

So you destroy them, never offering them the chance to experience true freedom?

Wat?  They had true freedom when they chose to side with Sovereign.

Destroying them - or rewriting them - is necessary because of the choices they made.  Neither option has anything to do with freedom, except destroying them respects their choice and delivers unto them the consequences of that decision. 

Kane Corr wrote...

That's where the true debate comes in...

It's a strawman.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[Kane Corr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Geth's are machines in the end. But in the end, we are organic goo. In the end, we are both just a combination of atoms. I don't think you are necessarily close minded, but it would be good if there could be a reason given for why being synthetic rather than organic makes you 'lesser'

Because Organic life would have to advance to a certain stage in order to create robotic life. In the end, the geth are a product of Organic construction. Organics are God in this situation. So, it kinda makes sense...though that's how I view this particular situation anyways.