183 réponses à ce sujet

[Kane Corr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

So you destroy them, never offering them the chance to experience true freedom?

Wat?  They had true freedom when they chose to side with Sovereign.

Destroying them is a consequence of their experience of true freedom.

Kane Corr wrote...

That's where the true debate comes in...

It's a strawman.

But Sovereign...we all know what he was. The Geth were intrigued, because he was the closest thing to them. THOUGH, we all know what the Reapers are capable of. Who knows what kind of lies he spewed at them? I mean, the geth even knew that Sovereign was composed of different "programs"...it's techinically brainwashing on HIS end if you think about it. Sovereign seduced the geth into sticking along for the ride. They didn't know better. They couldn't weigh the "right" and "wrong" of the situation. They were like toddlers.

And now, by re-writing them, they can actually have a true consensus about their experiences, and finally decide what the heck to do. They can see with clarity the destruction and danger that the Reapers impose upon the galaxy. THAT'S what your giving them when you're re-writing...another shot at the Reapers, and for them to do their own thing.

[TobyHasEyes]

Kane Corr wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Geth's are machines in the end. But in the end, we are organic goo. In the end, we are both just a combination of atoms. I don't think you are necessarily close minded, but it would be good if there could be a reason given for why being synthetic rather than organic makes you 'lesser'

Because Organic life would have to advance to a certain stage in order to create robotic life. In the end, the geth are a product of Organic construction. Organics are God in this situation. So, it kinda makes sense...though that's how I view this particular situation anyways.

 I respect that you have that particular view, it just makes me curious as to what the justification for it is

 Taking your point that synthetic's were created by organics, what about that order of existence gives precedence to organic life? As in literally, what about that order grants moral superiority?

 At the end of the day, organic matter is a product of chemical reactions, random matter etc. (obviously it is much more complex than that, but you get my point, organic life isn't the primary element of the universe)

 Yet I would suggest that certain qualities of organic life give them greater value than random matter. Since, as far as we can tell, synthetic life forms share those qualities, I don't see what makes them subordinate or 'lesser'

[upsettingshorts]

Not buying it. Legion describes Sovereign's offer being presented as a choice. A choice some Geth consciously made, whereas most did not.

If it was brainwashing a group of AI toddlers, then I don't see how most or all of them wouldn't have gone along as well.

Legion describes what happened, I'm not basing my decision on anything other than that and Shepard's experience with the Heretics.

[JenAnneMartinson]

I rewrote them because I wanted the loyalty so he would live because i like him. and the only way to keep him was by rewriting them because more geth wanted to rewrite then destroy

[Kane Corr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Geth's are machines in the end. But in the end, we are organic goo. In the end, we are both just a combination of atoms. I don't think you are necessarily close minded, but it would be good if there could be a reason given for why being synthetic rather than organic makes you 'lesser'

Because Organic life would have to advance to a certain stage in order to create robotic life. In the end, the geth are a product of Organic construction. Organics are God in this situation. So, it kinda makes sense...though that's how I view this particular situation anyways.

 I respect that you have that particular view, it just makes me curious as to what the justification for it is

 Taking your point that synthetic's were created by organics, what about that order of existence gives precedence to organic life? As in literally, what about that order grants moral superiority?

 At the end of the day, organic matter is a product of chemical reactions, random matter etc. (obviously it is much more complex than that, but you get my point, organic life isn't the primary element of the universe)

 Yet I would suggest that certain qualities of organic life give them greater value than random matter. Since, as far as we can tell, synthetic life forms share those qualities, I don't see what makes them subordinate or 'lesser'

It's moreso the fact that Organic life =/= Machine. They Geth ARE machine, regardless if they can think for themselves or not. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to enslave them or treat them harshly....I'd treat them like any other person. Just as I do with animals...treat them with kindness. And when I say lesser, I don't think of them as lowly forms of life, what I meant to say was this: there is no correlation between the organic life species, and Geth. They collect data and....ah im not getting into that because it'll take forever, and we all know the differences.

Bottom line (cause I feel like I'm straying now.).  I don't feel bad re-writing the geth. They are not like us. They do not love, hate, they are not happy or sad. I reset them, like most machines can be. It's like when a person in real life messes up...you know, badly. Following the wrong person, ideal, etc. They stray, they're too far gone. And so, one day, they are offered a choice. Stay on the path, or get better. AND usually, the only way they can even see this choice, is because someone helped them out, intervened. In the end, 9 times out of 10 the person who went through that path of destruction is greatful. The other one is someone who went back to the path, and ended up dead.

[Kane Corr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Not buying it. Legion describes Sovereign's offer being presented as a choice. A choice some Geth consciously made, whereas most did not.

If it was brainwashing a group of AI toddlers, then I don't see how most or all of them wouldn't have gone along as well.

Legion describes what happened, I'm not basing my decision on anything other than that and Shepard's experience with the Heretics.

I should have emphasized "seduction"...but, yeah. Sovereign's seductive talents reeled the Geth in. They were trying to understand themselves, and saw Sovereign as their god. Only problem with that, is the fact that they were moreso headed for hell, and the devil. They didn't know better...that's why it's your job to "help" 'em out! .

But anyways....that's my reason for re-writing them...a fresh start. Let them back up from it all and observe what path is RIGHT for them, and what they REALLY want from a neutral perspective. I think that's the best thing you can do for something like the geth. It's the most caring option. Now, we'll see where this decision lead in Mass 3, and hopefully it CAN lead to something nice for the Geth. Either way, both options are tough.

[TobyHasEyes]

I can understand your point that we are not the same, but I wonder what are the key differences between a sentient being that is organic, and a sentient being that is synthetic? 

 There are stark differences between the Geth specifically; they have no commitment to their mobile platforms / bodies, with the exception of Legion (who is unique amongst the Geth) they cannot have the concept of individuality applied to them, and their sentience is only achieved when there is a heavy concentration of different Geth

 To me, they are all things which merit them being treated differently, if only in so far as we would only regard the Geth Collective as a whole (and Legion, being unique) as a sentient being, which means that we have to apply our moral consideration to them in a very different way

 However your opposition seems primarily against the fact that their sentience is synthetic, rather than organic; are you suggesting that synthetics cannot achieve sentience/consciousness? It is certainly a view put forward by some, but I don't see what about their status as 'machines' makes you think that they are lesser than an organic being which displays all the same qualities

[GracefulChicken]

Kane Corr wrote...




It's moreso the fact that Organic life =/= Machine. They Geth ARE machine, regardless if they can think for themselves or not. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to enslave them or treat them harshly....I'd treat them like any other person. Just as I do with animals...treat them with kindness. And when I say lesser, I don't think of them as lowly forms of life, what I meant to say was this: there is no correlation between the organic life species, and Geth. They collect data and....ah im not getting into that because it'll take forever, and we all know the differences.

Bottom line (cause I feel like I'm straying now.).  I don't feel bad re-writing the geth. They are not like us. They do not love, hate, they are not happy or sad. I reset them, like most machines can be. It's like when a person in real life messes up...you know, badly. Following the wrong person, ideal, etc. They stray, they're too far gone. And so, one day, they are offered a choice. Stay on the path, or get better. AND usually, the only way they can even see this choice, is because someone helped them out, intervened. In the end, 9 times out of 10 the person who went through that path of destruction is greatful. The other one is someone who went back to the path, and ended up dead.

I agree with your point, but I want to play devil's advocate, so don't mind me, but whose to say the 1 person who died of their own wrong choices wasn't the happier individual at the end of their life? Because even though they made the "wrong" choices in the eyes of society, it doesn't mean they didn't die true to themselves, doing what they believed to be best for their life? I believe a person should be in control of their own life, and listen to the suggestions of others, but still do what they feel is best for them. In the case of the Geth, we don't know if reaper indoctrination even works on machines. We only know for sure that it works on organics, so whose to say the 'heretic' Geth didnt reach their 'consensus' completely on their own? If it was indeed their own choice, I would think destroying them, as a consequence of their own actions, to be the more noble thing to do. There's a big difference between giving someone a choice and letting them make their own decision and forcing them to think otherwise because you think it's in their best interest. In the latter case, there isn't actually a choice at all.
Assuming the Geth were indoctrinated by the Reapers the same way organics are, then wouldn't re-writing them be no different than what the Reapers did in the first place? Personally, I usually re-write them (unless I'm doing a strictly Renegade meta-gaming playthrough), but I think both decisions have their own merit. This is one of the few decisions in the game that I don't feel really has leverage (morally) one way or the other.

[Kane Corr]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would Sovereign brainwash some of the geth but not all of them?

I meant to say "seduce". My bad, two totally different concepts!

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would Sovereign brainwash some of the geth but not all of them?

Because not all geth think the same, so that slight change in their base codes probably lead to different thought patterns.

[S.A.K]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would Sovereign brainwash some of the geth but not all of them?

Because not all geth think the same, so that slight change in their base codes probably lead to different thought patterns.

^this. Even the geth inside Legion takes time to build consensus.

[upsettingshorts]

JenAnneMartinson wrote...

I rewrote them because I wanted the loyalty so he would live because i like him. and the only way to keep him was by rewriting them because more geth wanted to rewrite then destroy

Who told you that?

[REgentleman]

I suppose it would be rather hard to convince the geth to act more favorably towards your point of view without rewriting them, wouldn't it?

Not to trivialize it, but say you're debating a geth. You state your case to them, appeal to their "senses," aaaand:
"Yeah no, we've done the calculations."

Although, there was that geth platform who assumedly helped cause the rebellions who asked its overseer whether "this unit has a soul." Do the geth do their homework so thoroughly and quickly that for intents and purposes, they can't really be "convinced" of anything? Or is that really not so different from the greater consensus of any non-synthetic society, which I suppose mostly follows majority rule inevitably?

I think I got myself in deeper than I intended to, there. <_> Wasn't even thinking about theconflict between the geth supposedly being one will, despite being made of programs that come to different conclusions. ME3 needs to hurry up and elaborate, damn it.

Modifié par REgentleman, 03 août 2011 - 04:10 .

[Ace Attorney]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

I rewrote them,but to me this was the hardest decision in ME2. Just like with the rachni in ME1.

This.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Kane Corr wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would Sovereign brainwash some of the geth but not all of them?

I meant to say "seduce". My bad, two totally different concepts!

Anyone else picturing a Reaper in a negligee?

[S.A.K]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

JenAnneMartinson wrote...

I rewrote them because I wanted the loyalty so he would live because i like him. and the only way to keep him was by rewriting them because more geth wanted to rewrite then destroy

Who told you that?

I think legion will be loyal either way.

[DarkPsylocke26]

Yes rewriting is good, because you want them on your side not on the reapers size. Also saving the ranchi is a good idea to for the first ME1.

[The Twilight God]

Mesina2 wrote...

Neither choice is morally good.


It's either genocide or brainwashing.

Then everything Shepard does is morally wrong. Killing enemy combatants is not morally wrong in my book.

The Heretics are all combatants who want to see organics dead. There are no medics, chaplains, children, civilians, etc. Destroying them, to me, is the moral choice. Adding them back to the geth collective injects all their experiences and viewpoints into the geth collective. That's gotta alter the geth as a whole because they now have memories that contradict their beliefs. The geth were fine just the way they were. I see no need to stir the pot.

Given Bioware's past treatment of choices there probably is no downside to picking the blue option. But maybe, just maybe, ME2 will favor some renegade choices.

[robarcool]

I rewrite them always. It is right IMO since you are increasing the geth's strangth. They are synthetics, but they are also a race.

[upsettingshorts]

S.A.K wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

JenAnneMartinson wrote...

I rewrote them because I wanted the loyalty so he would live because i like him. and the only way to keep him was by rewriting them because more geth wanted to rewrite then destroy

Who told you that?

I think legion will be loyal either way.

It is a proven fact he will be.

[AtreiyaN7]

I think it is. It will give Legion's Geth insight into the heretics, and the heretics should be successfully integrated into the whole. Maybe the experience will allow them to evolve further. That aside, if all goes well, they'll at least up the numbers on our side in the fight against the Reapers.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 03 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[Sabotin]

I find the rewriting as moraly objectionable as installing a patch.

They're machines, more specifically one machine or actually one program. And the whole issue stems from an equation with two results. Think of it more as curing cancer without cutting anything from the body.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Shepard: If the geth were an organic race it would be a problem, they aren't. Don't apply our morality to them.
Legion: That is logical.
Squadmate: You agree with that?
Legion: All races must be judged on their own merits. To apply ones own morality to other races is recist, even benign anthropomorphism. Both races can be changed.Organic require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is all thats required.

^(Paraphrased)

The fact that legion said the above thew the whole morality aspect of it to the wind for me on my first playthrough. Tougher decision for me than the collector base. I don't even remember what I chose on my canon playthrough. On most of my Shepards I've chosen rewriting since I'm naturally inclined to choose life over death.

I must say it was a good dilemma, and I hope we get more "least of two evils" decisions in ME3.