183 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

The problem with this decision--and by default, the problem with any decision in ME--is the paragon and renegade system. Because the game doles out karma points for this action, the devs have told us which option is "right" and which one is "wrong." We can argue semantics and alternate interpretations all we want, but the bottom line is that a consensus (at least inside the game's universe) has already been reached.

That's the same problem I had with killing or sparing the Rachni queen in the first game. It could have been a very meaningful choice: do you spare something that was once responsible for the near destruction of the universe, or do you kill her even though she specifically wasn't a part of the aborted genocide? It's a pivotal moment, the kind that could define a character, but it's cheapened by allotting one action "good guy" points and the other "bad guy" points.

I think the games would be so much stronger without the paragon or renegade system. I know I personally (especially in the second game where persuasion was tied directly to consistency in your choices) wouldn't have felt compelled to spam paragon choices for paragon points regardless of what I actually felt was the right decision. I would have put more thought into each choice, lost myself in the character a bit more. Morality meters take you out of the decision-making process to some degree. They tell you there's a "winning" and "losing" choice. So if you're playing a good guy, why not take the "good" choice?

In a game that proclaims to be morally grey at times, it's a surprisingly black-and-white mechanic.

[SafetyShattered]

I rewrote them, but only for that fact that I wanted another group to help me fight the reapers. Considering what they did in ME1 they can definately do a lot of damage. Otherwise I would have destroyed it.

[Unpleasant Implications]

I believed re-writing the Heretics would give me more information on the Reapers and their goals because they would share memories with the True Geth. With the True Geth and the Quarian's possibly coming together for peace, the reward seemed worth the risk. Is either choice morally right? Not really. Either way you kill them, but re-writing makes them useful, killing them just ends the threat

[Agamo45]

It makes no sense how that is the "paragon" option. You're basically brainwashing them and there is a possibility that they could come to the same conclusion again. The safest and most ethical option is to wipe them out.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

I don't care if it's right or wrong... I do it for a bigger army for an ally and potential info about the reapers!

[Wynne]

Agamo45 wrote...

It makes no sense how that is the "paragon" option. You're basically brainwashing them and there is a possibility that they could come to the same conclusion again. The safest and most ethical option is to wipe them out.

Oh, but it does make sense. Same as with the Rachni, essentially, the geth which followed the Old Machines have been enslaved and indoctrinated. At best, they were mistaken, and thus taken advantage of in their 'naivete.' In any case, they are no longer able to choose anything other than the Old Machines, even if they wanted to. Is it wrong to save them from that?

Remember Talitha from the Colonist background? She suffered from Stockholm Syndrome--so much so that when other humans killed the batarians who raped and enslaved her, she tried to put their guts back in them because she was scared they would be angry at her. Afterward, she felt hopeless and wanted to die. Is it right in that mission to just say, "Okay, well, you want to die; maybe that's for the best because it's your choice"? Of course not. She doesn't know what's good for her; hasn't seen what else life has to offer besides what she's known. Get her through this time, get that idea of suicide out of her head, and she can be free again--she doesn't know that she's still in chains.

Same with the heretics. Get the idea of being the Reapers' little slaves out of their heads, and they can be free again.

The heretics were going to rewrite the other geth--obviously, Legion's segment of the geth know well enough how wrong that is on some level, but the heretics have 'forgotten'--they have become like Saren and other Reaper tools, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong. They are not willing to coexist, they intended to force, to brainwash, to destroy, to kill for their Reaper masters. On that level, the heretics either deserved to be given a dose of their own medicine, or more likely, needed to be rescued from what the Reapers had done to them and shown another way.

That's why I think it's a paragon choice. Rewriting them may be dangerous in ways, and on shaky ground ethically if you view it strictly as brainwashing without taking themes like indoctrination or abuse into account, but killing them over something they didn't have a choice about--it's a senseless waste of intelligence. The other geth perspective is valuable, and destroying it over one error in their processing that you have the power to fix right in your hands? That doesn't exactly encourage diversity.

Legion said it was not an error--that doesn't mean he's right. Serving the Reapers is one of the biggest mistakes a person or AI could ever make. They don't realize they're being used and will be discarded the moment they are no longer useful. They deserve the chance to become aware of their mistake. Killing them ensures that will never be possible.

[Medhia Nox]

"Burke: Okay, I know this is an emotional moment for all of us. I know that. But let's not make snap judgments, please. This is clearly an important species we're dealing with and I don't think that you or I, or *anybody*, has the right to arbitrarily exterminate them."

"Ripley: Wrong."

"Vasquez: Yeah, watch us"

- Aliens

[Agamo45]

Wynne wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

It makes no sense how that is the "paragon" option. You're basically brainwashing them and there is a possibility that they could come to the same conclusion again. The safest and most ethical option is to wipe them out.

Oh, but it does make sense. Same as with the Rachni, essentially, the geth which followed the Old Machines have been enslaved and indoctrinated. At best, they were mistaken, and thus taken advantage of in their 'naivete.' In any case, they are no longer able to choose anything other than the Old Machines, even if they wanted to. Is it wrong to save them from that?

Remember Talitha from the Colonist background? She suffered from Stockholm Syndrome--so much so that when other humans killed the batarians who raped and enslaved her, she tried to put their guts back in them because she was scared they would be angry at her. Afterward, she felt hopeless and wanted to die. Is it right in that mission to just say, "Okay, well, you want to die; maybe that's for the best because it's your choice"? Of course not. She doesn't know what's good for her; hasn't seen what else life has to offer besides what she's known. Get her through this time, get that idea of suicide out of her head, and she can be free again--she doesn't know that she's still in chains.

Same with the heretics. Get the idea of being the Reapers' little slaves out of their heads, and they can be free again.

The heretics were going to rewrite the other geth--obviously, Legion's segment of the geth know well enough how wrong that is on some level, but the heretics have 'forgotten'--they have become like Saren and other Reaper tools, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong. They are not willing to coexist, they intended to force, to brainwash, to destroy, to kill for their Reaper masters. On that level, the heretics either deserved to be given a dose of their own medicine, or more likely, needed to be rescued from what the Reapers had done to them and shown another way.

That's why I think it's a paragon choice. Rewriting them may be dangerous in ways, and on shaky ground ethically if you view it strictly as brainwashing without taking themes like indoctrination or abuse into account, but killing them over something they didn't have a choice about--it's a senseless waste of intelligence. The other geth perspective is valuable, and destroying it over one error in their processing that you have the power to fix right in your hands? That doesn't exactly encourage diversity.

Legion said it was not an error--that doesn't mean he's right. Serving the Reapers is one of the biggest mistakes a person or AI could ever make. They don't realize they're being used and will be discarded the moment they are no longer useful. They deserve the chance to become aware of their mistake. Killing them ensures that will never be possible.

Machines can't be indoctrinated. The heretic Geth chose their path, they wanted to wipe out all organic life in the galaxy which is why they joined up with Sovereign. They were also responsible for the attacks on Eden Prime and the Citadel. They deserved to be destroyed, nothing more.

[Nightdragon8]

I picked my choice based on the majority of what Legion was saying that more of his programs where in favor or rewrite.

Also if you think about it rewrite makes sure that any geth outside will be rewriten also, and that you wont still have rogue geth still trying to kill you.

[xXRevan0515Xx]

I tend to base the decisions on whatever my moral code favors...I'm one of those annoying Paragons so I figured rewrite the geth, Legion helps Shepard establish communication between the geth and the council-species, and Tali will serve as the link to progress between the Geth and the Quarians. So, in my path of guestimations, rewriting the geth leads to the strengthened/unified Geth and the Quarians assisting the effort against the Reapers.

[goofyomnivore]

I hate this choice. I usually destroy the Heretics. I don't think either is more right than wrong.

If I choose "rewrite", the fact that they still have freedom to choose their own path/math still exists, so they can still compute pi and think Reapers are cool. Helps me deal with the "brainwash" part of it. However for now they are absorbing the data/virus Legion gave them, and at the worst are not an immediate threat or at best a valuable ally with unique insight.

Modifié par strive, 04 août 2011 - 02:06 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The geth could very well have fallen to a cybernetic form of indoctrination. If that is the case, killing them would be quite morally reprehensible and rewriting them returns them to their natural state.

Even if that's not the case, the fact that it is a possible outcome tips the scales to have the heretics re-written every time for me.

[Inquisitor Recon]

My love of explosions won out in the end. I didn't feel the need to reinforce the "loyal" geth either.

[elfdwarf]

no right or wrong answer in mission
take thief on mission next time
alway negative and positive for each choice you make in mass effect world

[Quething]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

I picked my choice based on the majority of what Legion was saying that more of his programs where in favor or rewrite.

Also if you think about it rewrite makes sure that any geth outside will be rewriten also, and that you wont still have rogue geth still trying to kill you.

They do, though. It's not like doing Legion's loyalty preempts any of the other geth sidequests, there are still active Heretics everywhere. Any Heretics who don't or can't access the network are still going to be hanging around killing organics.

I can't go by Legion's internal vote for a couple reasons. One, they themselves don't seem to think that a majority that slim is decisive; they need a much stronger consensus before they're willing to make a decision, and if we're going with that "benign anthropomorphism is bad" crap Legion spouts earlier then I have to respect their perspective on the lack of definitiveness of a three-vote majority. Two, and more important, there's no context for that vote. Okay, there's three in favor now. Maybe twenty minutes ago there was a forty-vote disparity in favor of rewrite, and if I wait another twenty there'll be a sixty-vote disparity against. Maybe there are six programs that keep changing their minds and everyone else is set on their decision and trying to convince the swings. Maybe half of those that favor destruction over rewrite are only slightly in favor of it, while seventy percent of the rewrite crowd is vehemently sound in their conviction. There just isn't enough data in Legion's statement to make any kind of conclusive resolution about the actual opinion of the group.

[didymos1120]

Quething wrote...
They do, though. It's not like doing Legion's loyalty preempts any of the other geth sidequests, there are still active Heretics everywhere.

"Everywhere" actually being 2 N7 assignments, 5 Firewalker assignments (only in 2 of which you encounter actual geth, and in one of them it's nothing but rocket drones), and Overlord, which doesn't really count because those geth were cut off from the galactic network (because if they weren't, they'd have long since been retrieved or just transmitted themselves back home). Oh, and if for some reason you left it undone, Tali's recruitment, which leads to her loyaltly mission, where reasoning similar to Overlord applies.

Any Heretics who don't or can't access the network are still going to be hanging around killing organics.

And Bioware saw that was possible and made sure to justify the existence of those still-hostile geth, just like they did for the "blow 'em all up" option:

Legion: We are networked via FTL comm buoys. Most would change within a day. Isolated platforms would remain unaffected until they rejoined the network.

Thus, the fact remains that all the Heretics, barring a freak accident or someone's conscious interference that cuts them off from the Heretics' network (the notion that they, for some reason, just won't connect for very long periods of time really isn't worth consideration, since doing so is as natural and fundamental to geth as breathing), will get the update within a fairly short timeframe. 

Not to mention, the whole internal timeline of ME2 is rather vague, so it's hard to say when exactly all these assignments and missions take place "officially".  Especially if we're talking post-game, where acknowledgements of the SM having been completed or your current relationship w/ TIM and Cerberus (much less your choice re: the Heretics) are few, far-between, and not all that consistent with other dialogue and text (sometimes not even within a single assignment/mission).

And I highly doubt the devs will bother tracking when you actually did most or even all of the Heretic-related stuff come ME3 anyway.  They'll just assume whatever makes things the most consistent. Hell, most of them will be lucky to even get acknowledged, even in passing.

Shorter me: that's a very dubious basis for extrapolation you've picked, especially as the writers' intentions on the subject are pretty clear.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 août 2011 - 04:28 .

[rt604]

You aren't brainwashing an entire race, just half of the Geth are heretics. But I brainwashed them, don't need the conflict.

[Quething]

didymos1120 wrote...

Shorter me: that's a very dubious basis for extrapolation you've picked, especially as the writers' intentions on the subject are pretty clear.

What extrapolation? Rewriting the Heretics at Daratar doesn't prevent Heretics from remaining a problem in other areas. This is simple fact. I'm not saying it matters. Just that it's true.

[Weskerr]

Wynne wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

It makes no sense how that is the "paragon" option. You're basically brainwashing them and there is a possibility that they could come to the same conclusion again. The safest and most ethical option is to wipe them out.

Oh, but it does make sense. Same as with the Rachni, essentially, the geth which followed the Old Machines have been enslaved and indoctrinated. At best, they were mistaken, and thus taken advantage of in their 'naivete.' In any case, they are no longer able to choose anything other than the Old Machines, even if they wanted to. Is it wrong to save them from that?

  The Heretics weren't indoctrinated or enslaved. Even if they were taken advantage of because of naivete, it's not any less true that they decided to join the Reapers. You can't save someone who neither wants nor thinks they need to be saved. That's the beauty of free choice - believing your decisions are right even if others think they are wrong. Brainwashing them is no more the right thing to do if they really are wrong than it is to do if they really are right. Either way, you're depriving them of their right to think as they wish. As Legion said, they concluded differently from the majority of the Geth when Saren and Sovereign approached them with an offer, and the True Geth, understanding their reasoning but not agreeing with their conclusions, let them go without a fight.

Wynne wrote...
Remember Talitha from the Colonist background? She suffered from Stockholm Syndrome--so much so that when other humans killed the batarians who raped and enslaved her, she tried to put their guts back in them because she was scared they would be angry at her. Afterward, she felt hopeless and wanted to die. Is it right in that mission to just say, "Okay, well, you want to die; maybe that's for the best because it's your choice"? Of course not. She doesn't know what's good for her; hasn't seen what else life has to offer besides what she's known. Get her through this time, get that idea of suicide out of her head, and she can be free again--she doesn't know that she's still in chains.

Same with the heretics. Get the idea of being the Reapers' little slaves out of their heads, and they can be free again.

I haven't played that mission with Talitha, but from how you describe it, she was tramautized, which is not the same thing as being brainwashed. She must have been in some state of confusion that the Batarians caused through her rape and enslavement - tramautizing experiences can cause a person to act irrationally - when trying to put their guts back inside them. Her emotions took over and her common sense left her. The Heretics were not tramautized and thus not confused when making their decision to side with Sovereign and the Reapers. So comparing her choice to wanting to commit suicide and the Heretics choice in following the Reapers as being the same idea is wrong.

Wynne wrote...
The heretics were going to rewrite the other geth--obviously, Legion's segment of the geth know well enough how wrong that is on some level, but the heretics have 'forgotten'--they have become like Saren and other Reaper tools, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong. They are not willing to coexist, they intended to force, to brainwash, to destroy, to kill for their Reaper masters. On that level, the heretics either deserved to be given a dose of their own medicine, or more likely, needed to be rescued from what the Reapers had done to them and shown another way.

Not quite. The ratio of programs within Legion that favored rewrite of the Heretics to those who favored destruction is nearly 1:1. That is, half the programs favored rewrite and half the programs favored destruction. Simply put, Legion couldn't decide what to do. This suggests a few possibilities:
1. The True Geth don't know the difference between right and wrong. OR
2. The True Geth do know the difference, but can't agree on whether to follow the morally right path (destruction) or the pragmatically right path (rewrite). AND
3.The True Geth are not willing to co-exist with the Heretics anymore (Whether they destroy or rewrite, either way the Heretics will cease to exist). I think "2" and "3" are true.
From the Heretic's perspective, since they feel they are in the right, they also think that either destruction or rewriting of the True Geth is necessary, but since they cannot destroy a force so much larger than their own, rewriting the True Geth is their only option to achieve their goal (assistance from the Reapers to develop and evolve themselves).

Wynne wrote...
That's why I think it's a paragon choice. Rewriting them may be dangerous in ways, and on shaky ground ethically if you view it strictly as brainwashing without taking themes like indoctrination or abuse into account, but killing them over something they didn't have a choice about--it's a senseless waste of intelligence. The other geth perspective is valuable, and destroying it over one error in their processing that you have the power to fix right in your hands? That doesn't exactly encourage diversity.

It should be viewed as strictly brainwashing because the Heretics were neither indoctrinated nor abused. They did have a choice. I agree that the Heretic Geth's experiences and memories could be valuable intelligence, but I do so from a practicle point of view. There was no error in their processing and so there is nothing to fix.

Wynne wrote...
Legion said it was not an error--that doesn't mean he's right. Serving the Reapers is one of the biggest mistakes a person or AI could ever make. They don't realize they're being used and will be discarded the moment they are no longer useful. They deserve the chance to become aware of their mistake. Killing them ensures that will never be possible.

You're right that just because someone says something is true doesn't mean it is true. However, if one program is no better or worse than any other program within the Geth, and each program shares all of its thoughts and experiences with every other program, then Legion must be right that the Heretic's conlcusions aren't errors, but differences of belief. The Heretic's don't think that serving the Reapers is a mistake. They think that not serving the Reapers is a mistake. The Heretics and True Geth have a fundamental disagreement over this - that is the Heretics believe that serving the Reapers best serves their interests for developing and evolving as a species while the True Geth believe that developing and evolving as a species is best achieved on their own. Also, since it was the Heretic's choice to join the Reapers, whether or not they're aware that the Reapers are using them has no bearing on the fact that they chose to side with them.

[AK47 Total WAR]

rt604 wrote...

You aren't brainwashing an entire race, just half of the Geth are heretics. But I brainwashed them, don't need the conflict.

Incorrect.  Only 5% of the Geth population are Heretics.

Anyway, I always destroy the Heretics.  Their choice to splinter away, their choice to worship the Reapers, their choice to attack organics, and now they have to deal with the consequences of their actions.  Besides, even Legion admits that rewriting them runs the risk of the Geth coming to the same conclusions again and worshipping the Reapers, and I'm not willing to take that chance.

Modifié par AK47 Total WAR, 04 août 2011 - 07:37 .

[Pockles]

Renegade shep said it best, I think. The Geth are radically different from the organic races, applying our morality to them wouldn't make sense. They're constantly exchanging thoughts and memories to the point that the only difference between two Geth is what they happen to be looking at. The concept of organic individuality doesn't seem to be relevant to their society. I see it as more of an issue of pragmatism, no point in wasting the opportunity for a bigger Geth army. Can't afford to be picky with the reapers closing in.

[StellarMagic]

Moreover from the conversations you have with legion it seems that while the heretics initially left under their own free will, their subsequent actions suggest a form of indoctrination was then applied afterwards.

[didymos1120]

StellarMagic wrote...

Moreover from the conversations you have with legion it seems that while the heretics initially left under their own free will, their subsequent actions suggest a form of indoctrination was then applied afterwards.

Uh, how do you figure? All I see is that they met their side of the deal with Sovereign: make war on the organics, help the Reapers return, get some kewl tech.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 août 2011 - 08:06 .

[S.A.K]

I have to say. If BW didn't make one paragon and one renegade, this choice would have been much harder. Both should be renegade choices because both are ethically wrong.

[S.A.K]

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