95 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

A few things we (at least I) don't seem to know about the elves:

It is supposed that, before humans came to Thedas, elves had spread throughout Thedas. And Arlathan was regarded the center of their world - not the only part of their world. So, even if Tevinter Imperium destroyed Arlathan, what happened to the rest of elven lands, cities, etc? I think humans and elves shared some 2000 years of history before the sacking of Arlathan. During this time, did the rest of the elves die or were enslaved at the hands of humans? I think unlikely, otherwise some history would probably have recorded it. So what exactly  happened to the rest of the elven lands?

Marethari seemed to think that the history of the ancient elves, particularly regarding the Eluvian I think, was better  left forgotten. I wonder why that was. The Dalish have been trying to recreate their ancient history, in the hope some day to regain their lost glory, immortality, etc. But if that is the case why fear the particular history of the Eluvians? Maybe she knows something that we don't. Or it could just be that she knows the taint can be spread  through the Eluvian.

In all likelihood, ancient elves and dwarves shared a common (perhaps pre-human) history. Why? It is said that the first dreamers learnt the use of lyrium to enter the Fade from the elven captives, and these dreamers became the first of the Imperium's ruling magisters. So, unless the ancient elves knew of a way to mine and refine raw lyrium without falling prey to its detrimental effects, they must have traded with the dwarves before the humans started doing so. We seem to know next to nothing about this shared history.

My objective behind these questions is to see what could have caused the downfall of the elves, other than the fall of Arlathan, which we already seem to know something about. Maybe these have been speculated upon before,  but I don't recall seeing any threads that discussed these topics in particular.

EDIT: Fixing some paragraph formatting issues.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 03 août 2011 - 12:17 .

[t0mm06]

Well keep in mind that there are some ruins that could have been elven that were underground. so theres a connection to dwarves or lyrium there maybe?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Marethari seemed to think that the history of the ancient elves, particularly regarding the Eluvian I think, was better  left forgotten. I wonder why that was. The Dalish have been trying to recreate their ancient history, in the hope some day to regain their lost glory, immortality, etc. But if that is the case why fear the particular history of the Eluvians? Maybe she knows something that we don't. Or it could just be that she knows the taint can be spread  through the Eluvian.

And she is probably right. The more bits I learn about the ancient elves, the more I wonder. It is often suggested in DAO that the elves played a part in the downfall of Arlathan, and I don't think it was from being too "peaceful".

For starters, I'm pretty sure the elves used blood magic for their "immortality". I also wonder if it wasn't the Eluvians somehow were heavily involved in the beginning of the taint. The taint seems to be a very alien phenomenon, even demons are wary and find it offensive. The Eluvian in the Dalish Origin was corrupted, the black city seen by Tamlen.

I don't know much about the elves in general, but I honestly do not think they were 100% innocent in the creation of their troubles.

[MichaelFinnegan]

t0mm06 wrote...

Well keep in mind that there are some
ruins that could have been elven that were underground. so theres a
connection to dwarves or lyrium there maybe?

The Primeval Thaig? I don't entirely buy into the theory that Arlathan was actually "sunk," so I go with the notion that the thaig probably shows elves and dwarves had previous interactions, maybe even lived together.

The ancient dwarves were probably very different from the ones we see today, so maybe, just maybe, as they dug deeper into the underground to mine for lyrium, they discovered something and that something led them to seal off the thaig, and wipe all records of it from memory.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

And she is probably right. The more bits I learn about the ancient elves, the more I wonder. It is often suggested in DAO that the elves played a part in the downfall of Arlathan, and I don't think it was from being too "peaceful".

For starters, I'm pretty sure the elves used blood magic for their "immortality". I also wonder if it wasn't the Eluvians somehow were heavily involved in the beginning of the taint. The taint seems to be a very alien phenomenon, even demons are wary and find it offensive. The Eluvian in the Dalish Origin was corrupted, the black city seen by Tamlen.

I don't know much about the elves in general, but I honestly do not think they were 100% innocent in the creation of their troubles.

I think that is a good point. The codexs seem to suggest that all was rosy and comfy in the lands of elves. But that is what the Dalish believe how the ancient elves were, which may just be a fairy tale of sorts. It does not explain why their civilzation was crumbling even before Arlathan was destroyed, so there could be more to it.

The suggestion that they probably used blood magic for their immortality - may be true. We do know from DA2 how they could revive/resurrect Flemeth from the part of her stored in the amulet, even when she was killed. And the arcane warrior spirt in DAO hid himself (or his spirit) in a phylactery to escape some terrible presence that was destroying elves and humans alike, maybe with the hope of being resurrected at some point in the future. Maybe these are forms of blood magic, and this is how elves achieved their immortality.

Personally, I'm a bit unsure about the Eluvians. I'm not entirely sure whether the ancient elves restricted themselves to using them as communication devices, to interact across their various cities. They must have known the full potential of those Eluvians and I find it hard to believe they didn't use them the same way that Morrigan probably used it - to teleport to somewhere beyond Thedas, the Fade even. Perhaps it is this knowledge that Marethari actually fears - fears to learn what lies in that beyond. Perhaps fears that their people were somehow connected with the origins of the taint even.

EDIT: Resurrecting people (like Flemeth) is not how elves would have achieved immortality. Because this is a magic they know of at present, and knowledge of immortality is something they've obviously lost. Please ignore that I even mentioned it. As to the nature of their earlier immortality - anyone's guess.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 03 août 2011 - 04:20 .

[Rifneno]

Remember that after the Dalish PC and Tamlen find the Eluvian, not only did they contract the blight disease from it but the area was suddenly teeming with darkspawn. It was like they flipped a switch. There's any number of explanations but the most obvious is that wherever that Eluvian's twin was (they worked in pairs, right?) the other side still had functional teleportation and was using it to go to the one Tamlen's dumb ass activated. Or at least the general proximity.

So, who wants to help Merrill fix her portal to the heart of evil itself?

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

Remember that after the Dalish PC and Tamlen find the Eluvian, not only did they contract the blight disease from it but the area was suddenly teeming with darkspawn. It was like they flipped a switch. There's any number of explanations but the most obvious is that wherever that Eluvian's twin was (they worked in pairs, right?) the other side still had functional teleportation and was using it to go to the one Tamlen's dumb ass activated. Or at least the general proximity.

So, who wants to help Merrill fix her portal to the heart of evil itself?

Yes, I suppose that is true. I didn't give much thought to it earlier, but it could be that Eluvians work in pairs. So that would mean that, if Morrigan used one to travel beyond Thedas and the Fade, then wherever she went must have had another one. Although, I'm not entirely sure why she said it was a one way trip.

I wonder though. If the magisters didn't actually corrupt the Golden City (or wherever they actually went), then who did? Is it possible that ancient elves had a hand at that, and somehow tried to seal access to that place? I know it is a bit wild, but if we admit that magisters weren't the cause, then someone else must have been. (I know I'm ignoring all that the Chantry and the elven lore says, but I'd like to think their gods weren't actually involved with the creation of the taint. That it is something more tangible.)

[Rifneno]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Yes, I suppose that is true. I didn't give much thought to it earlier, but it could be that Eluvians work in pairs. So that would mean that, if Morrigan used one to travel beyond Thedas and the Fade, then wherever she went must have had another one. Although, I'm not entirely sure why she said it was a one way trip.

I wonder though. If the magisters didn't actually corrupt the Golden City (or wherever they actually went), then who did? Is it possible that ancient elves had a hand at that, and somehow tried to seal access to that place? I know it is a bit wild, but if we admit that magisters weren't the cause, then someone else must have been. (I know I'm ignoring all that the Chantry and the elven lore says, but I'd like to think their gods weren't actually involved with the creation of the taint. That it is something more tangible.)

My theory is that it has something to due with the elven immortality. The elves were immortal in that they didn't age. They lost this power for reasons that are completely unexplained. We have several darkspawn confirmed to be thousands of years old, and Gaider confirmed in a post that darkspawn do not age and in fact don't even need to eat. There's got to be a connection there. I have no idea what, but...

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

My theory is that it has something to due with the elven immortality. The elves were immortal in that they didn't age. They lost this power for reasons that are completely unexplained. We have several darkspawn confirmed to be thousands of years old, and Gaider confirmed in a post that darkspawn do not age and in fact don't even need to eat. There's got to be a connection there. I have no idea what, but...

I think you may be defintely on to something here.

It is quite possible that the Golden City was a reference to wherever the elves went (physically via Eluvians? Or metaphysically, through dreams? who knows...), and they probably got their immortality from there. This probably was true for a long time. Then somehow, sometime they lost this connection - perhaps because the Golden City turned Black because of their own doing, someone else's doing (again, who knows). This may also have been the reason why they lost their connection with their gods, in that the gods stopped answering to their calls/prayers (I remember this is mentioned somewhere). And perhaps this coincided with the time when humans started appearing in Thedas. So the elves might have attributed their loss of immortality incorrectly to their physical interactions with humans - to disease, quickening of blood, etc.)

As time goes on Tevinter destroys Arlathan (the last of their grand cities?). They could have heard about elven immortality. Now the Old Gods whispering to these magisters tell them something about it. Tell them how to get it for themselves. But unknown to all, the City has become corrupt. As the magisters enter the City physically, they encounter this corrupted power, and unwittingly bring it back to Thedas. Thus this power has moved into the mortal realm. The corrupted version creating the "immortal" darkspawn - with abandon, to boot. They get what they wanted in the end, but not in the way they wanted to.

Perhaps it is all a load of hogwash, but it does have a ring to it.

[Pistolized]

Consider this. There are three base religions in Thedas:
Elven - a small pantheon of good(Creators) and bad gods(Forgotten Ones), with Fen'Harel/DreadWolf/Trickster masquerading as both
Imperial - The Old Gods-a single caste of deities
Andrastian - The Maker and spirits/demons

Then we must realise that none of these are exactly correct, and all of them are partially correct.  

So, following the timeline: (Elvhen and Andrastian being about the creation of the world, while Tevinter lore is more of an actual history)
Elvhen - Lived long, peaceful, yet uneventful lives closely with the gods until Fen'Harel trapped them in their respective lands: Heaven/Abyss.  At the same time, humans arrive and the elves lose their powers/prosperity and ability to communicate with their gods.
Andrastian -  Spirits had eternal lives and godlike power, yet did not use them to their full potential, then the Maker created the mortal world, then men and spirits lived separately.

Elvhen (Forgotten Ones) + Imperium (Old Gods) = both groups of evil gods

I've thought about this alot now, and for all the correlations I see, each separate conclusion is as thin as the next.  There are just too many possibilities.  Although my personal belief is that elves were never immortal.  You must remember that there civilization was destroyed twice: ancient Arlathan and the Dales, so of course they believe their ancestors to be perfect.

[Gervaise]

There is a strong connection between people with magic and the Fade. In the Fade are spirits that embody (may be not the right word) various emotions both positive and negative. The Keeper tells us in DA2 that Dreamers used to be more common and that also few now survive beyond childhood because of falling prey to demons. Dreamers can enter the fade without the need of lyrium or blood magic. May be the ancient elves lived a long time because they all had a little magic and connected with spirits in the fade that were positive to longevity, such as serenity, endurance, contentment, etc. When they came into contact with humans, other emotions came to the fore and this severed their connection with the life giving spirits, thus seemingly causing their loss of immortality. In addition to disease and aging, possibly for the first time elves fell prey to abomination as well. There also seemed a loss of general magical ability, perhaps a subconscious defence against the negative emotions. May be elven dreamers also were involved in some way, entering the Fade to try and prevent the bad effects. May be they were also trying to reach the Golden City, which they saw as the home of their gods/good spirits. The Tevinter Magisters perceived what they were trying to do and saw this as a threat to their own power, so set about destroying the elven civilisation, after which they tried to enter the Golden City themselves. So may be the elven mages succeeded but caused a taint or may be the stories are true and it was the magisters who did this but either way, the elves could no longer experience the contact they had with their gods/good spirits.
That is my theory thus far but no doubt will be proved totally wrong in the future.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Pistolized wrote...

Consider this. There are three base religions in Thedas:
Elven - a small pantheon of good(Creators) and bad gods(Forgotten Ones), with Fen'Harel/DreadWolf/Trickster masquerading as both
Imperial - The Old Gods-a single caste of deities
Andrastian - The Maker and spirits/demons

Yes. I suppose. The qunari could be added there, too, since they've gained a sort of foothold into Thedas.

Then we must realise that none of these are exactly correct, and all of them are partially correct.

Religious explanations I think are meant to fill a vacuum, where none such explanations existed before. It is in a way an attempt to make sense of the world. What they lack though is proof, being more doctrinaire in nature. And yes history and events inevitably get added as part of that. I look mainly at those events and history - generally ignoring other parts of it.

So, following the timeline: (Elvhen and Andrastian being about the creation of the world, while Tevinter lore is more of an actual history)

It is true perhaps that elven and andrastian (more Chantry, I'd say) lores are about creation, but I'd not say they are entirely about creation. But I see what you mean. The magisters of Tevinter perhaps never really focused on anything but power - theirs was not to explain creation, but to harness power. But I'd say history is embedded everywhere. Only the explanations, and even allegded facts, we'd need to carefully interpret.

Elvhen - Lived long, peaceful, yet uneventful lives closely with the gods until Fen'Harel trapped them in their respective lands: Heaven/Abyss.  At the same time, humans arrive and the elves lose their powers/prosperity and ability to communicate with their gods.
Andrastian -  Spirits had eternal lives and godlike power, yet did not use them to their full potential, then the Maker created the mortal world, then men and spirits lived separately.

Elvhen (Forgotten Ones) + Imperium (Old Gods) = both groups of evil gods

Yes. True, I suppose.

I've thought about this alot now, and for all the correlations I see, each separate conclusion is as thin as the next.  There are just too many possibilities.  Although my personal belief is that elves were never immortal.  You must remember that there civilization was destroyed twice: ancient Arlathan and the Dales, so of course they believe their ancestors to be perfect.

Well, if our intention is to actually form a theory about everything, then necessarily we'd end up in trouble. It is not just that we don't know many things, but also that the things we know about have multiple interpretations - especially those that involve multiple races with their multiple intervoven histories explained by their separate belief systems.

About the modern elves a case could be made that their belief about their ancestors' immortality is probably false. But, if the objection against that is simply that such immortality is inconceivable, then we have contrary evidence. The darkspawn are technically immortal - they don't need to eat as the taint sustains them indefintely. This does not mean however that they are any more immune to the striking of a blade than the rest of the races on Thedas. We could go back and investigate the history of ancient elves (as held by the Dalish no doubt) and see whether there is any parallel to the darkspawn type of immortality. But otherwise I admit it is taking the elves for their word.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gervaise wrote...

There is a strong connection between people with magic and the Fade.

We can actually be more precise about it, I think. Everyone (except dwarves and tranquil) enter the Fade when they dream. Mages have an ability to enter it consciously by the use of lyrium, besides having a stronger connection to the Fade because of their ability to channel its energies to do magic. And finally the dreamers who can consciously enter the Fade without lyrium. Dreamers have the strongest connection - it is almost as if they exist both in Thedas and the Fade at all times. (Or perhaps these dreamers are fully consicous in the Fade when they dream in Thedas. I'm unsuare.)

In the Fade are spirits that embody (may be not the right word) various emotions both positive and negative. The Keeper tells us in DA2 that Dreamers used to be more common and that also few now survive beyond childhood because of falling prey to demons. Dreamers can enter the fade without the need of lyrium or blood magic.

Agreed. Although Merrill (an elf) believed that all the spirits, not just demons, can actually be dangerous. So, interpreted one way, it just perhaps mean that all spirits have some amount of both good and evil in them. But having looked at the demons we've seen thus far, one would have to wonder whatever she was talking about.

May be the ancient elves lived a long time because they all had a little magic and connected with spirits in the fade that were positive to longevity, such as serenity, endurance, contentment, etc.

You are relating longevity of life with positive emotions reflected off from the spirits in the Fade. Interesting. And quite possible. But personally I think there is more to it than that. For instance, if demons did exist at the times of ancient elves, one wonders how the elves were able to counter their temptations.

When they came into contact with humans, other emotions came to the fore and this severed their connection with the life giving spirits, thus seemingly causing their loss of immortality.

It is mentioned that the first human "dreamers" learnt of the use of lyrium from elven captives, and these dreamers became the first magisters of the Imperium. There are actually two possible interpretations for this:

"Dreamer" could be meant in a generic sense (not to be confused with those with natural abilities to enter the Fade consciously) - meaning humans were not naturally acquainted with the Fade as the elves were, but somehow gained the connection to the Fade as they dreamt in Thedas. Or...

The very first dreamers (with the ability to enter the Fade at will) actually learnt the ability to enter the Fade physically from elven captives. These then became the first magisters of Tevinter.

[EDIT 2] However, if it is the case that dreamers are those who enter the Fade consciously when the dream, then it would stand to reason that the first magisters needed to learn the use of lyrium to enter the Fade when not dreaming. This makes more sense than what I said above. Other than that, the reason why we see human dreamers was perhaps because of a mixing of races - meaning that the first magisters, like Feynriel, were probably born to elven and human parents.

In any case, coming back to what you said, I wonder coincident to the coming of humans to Thedas, demons started appearing in the Fade. An intriguing thought.

In addition to disease and aging, possibly for the first time elves fell prey to abomination as well. There also seemed a loss of general magical ability, perhaps a subconscious defence against the negative emotions. May be elven dreamers also were involved in some way, entering the Fade to try and prevent the bad effects. May be they were also trying to reach the Golden City, which they saw as the home of their gods/good spirits. The Tevinter Magisters perceived what they were trying to do and saw this as a threat to their own power, so set about destroying the elven civilisation, after which they tried to enter the Golden City themselves. So may be the elven mages succeeded but caused a taint or may be the stories are true and it was the magisters who did this but either way, the elves could no longer experience the contact they had with their gods/good spirits.

What you seemed to imply above, that the elves perhaps tried to cut access for the humans to the Fade, and hence the magisters retaliated by destroying Arlathan is an interesting explanation for the magisters' motivation to destroy Arlathan. If we remember, the exact reasons for such aggression is actually unknown.

That is my theory thus far but no doubt will be proved totally wrong in the future.

I think we needn't worry too much with our theories being wildly off. It could all be in good fun.

All in all, some very good theories. Thanks for sharing.

EDIT: Somehow I'm very good at frequently missing quotes.

EDIT 2: Some additions and corrections.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 04 août 2011 - 02:11 .

[Huntress]

Mm I thought Arlathan was destroyed 2 times with exalted march one by tevinter mages the other by the Chantry because The elves didn't want the Human's or their (god*) could be dragon's second march took place after Andraste death and named as been the wife to the Maker (new god?))

The mirrors were used to comunicate but the tavinters magisters used as a form of travel, God Dumat tricked Tavinter magister to the fade "probably" using a mirror it is said they were in "flesh" when they enter the fade.. no?.

After the exalted march the elves were taken as slaves, they lost the land, tongue and culture, living with humans for so many years the elves start losing the "immortality" ( "I suppose it mean natural resistance to sickness"), thats why Shartan unite with Andrastes trying to regain what was lost, elves got a land and after that the elves again went apart from humans and the human religion, another exalted march took place in the name of The Maker.
Elves Dreamers could sleep for many years without becoming an abomination, I suppose Humans have more trouble with their emotions thats why they are fool so easily.

This is what I think it happen more or less. I don't think elves were immortal and lived for 1000's years, they just didn't get sick or died from illness, I think they died very old like 90 or more years old. remember in the old times people were old at the age of 40 and adult were of age 13-14.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Huntress wrote...

Mm I thought Arlathan was destroyed 2 times with exalted march one by tevinter mages the other by the Chantry because The elves didn't want the Human's or their (god*) could be dragon's second march took place after Andraste death and named as been the wife to the Maker (new god?))

The details: Arlathan was destroyed once, by Tevinter, by all accounts. The elves were then held captive and made into slaves. Then Shartan (the leader of the elven slaves) joined ranks with Andraste's forces to rise up against the Imperium and their combined forced succeeded in defeating them. And in reward for that the elves were granted lands - the Dales. The dalish were thus born. Over time, relations between the dalish elves and humans deteriorated. I think there is a contention whether the Chantry tried to convert the elves, regarding them as heretics, or whether the dalish actually instigated something. In any case, because of some event involving the occupation of some human land by the dalish, the Chantry found a reason, (an excuse?) to launch an Exalted March against the Dalish. Then, for the second time in their history, the elves were driven from their homeland.

The mirrors were used to comunicate but the tavinters magisters used as a form of travel, God Dumat tricked Tavinter magister to the fade "probably" using a mirror it is said they were in "flesh" when they enter the fade.. no?

I'm not entirely convinced by that theory, actually. It is not known how the magisters entered the Golden/Black City. Certainly, Eluvians could have been one way. But then why the references to so many slaves being sacrificed or so much lyrium being used? There is more to it.

And regarding Dumat tricking the magisters, well, I don't know. It almost looked to me like even Dumat didn't know about the state of the City, so the Old God perhaps was tricked themselves.

After the exalted march the elves were taken as slaves, they lost the land, tongue and culture, living with humans for so many years the elves start losing the "immortality" ( "I suppose it mean natural resistance to sickness"), thats why Shartan unite with Andrastes trying to regain what was lost, elves got a land and after that the elves again went apart from humans and the human religion, another exalted march took place in the name of The Maker.

Hmm. I see Shartan's efforts as merely being one of trying to free elven slaves from the clutches of the Imperium. The Dalish after gaining their lands have been ever since trying to recreate their lost history, perhaps even to regain their lost glory, their immortality, lost magic, and so on and so forth. And even to preserve their heritage.

Elves Dreamers could sleep for many years without becoming an abomination, I suppose Humans have more trouble with their emotions thats why they are fool so easily.

I agree. It makes sense to think of the ancient elves as being dreamers. And also one could think of the elves having easily resisted demons. But, I think to reach that conclusion, we still have a ways to go.

This is what I think it happen more or less. I don't think elves were immortal and lived for 1000's years, they just didn't get sick or died from illness, I think they died very old like 90 or more years old. remember in the old times people were old at the age of 40 and adult were of age 13-14.

Well, there are a few references to the "length" of their lives (Codex - Arlathan: Part One):
"They felt no need to rush when life was endless. They worshipped their gods for months at a time. Decisions came after decades of debate, and an introduction could last for years. From time to time, our ancestors would drift into centuries-long slumber, but this was not death, for we know they wandered the Fade in dreams."

Now that is a reference to a very long life. One could say all of that was untrue, that they were merely immune to sickness but did not live for more than a hundred years, of course. But, I simply see immortality as meaning living forever. So, in that sense, they were either immortal or they were not.

[Copyright Theft]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Gervaise wrote...
In the Fade are spirits that embody (may be not the right word) various emotions both positive and negative. The Keeper tells us in DA2 that Dreamers used to be more common and that also few now survive beyond childhood because of falling prey to demons. Dreamers can enter the fade without the need of lyrium or blood magic.

Agreed. Although Merrill (an elf) believed that all the spirits, not just demons, can actually be dangerous. So, interpreted one way, it just perhaps mean that all spirits have some amount of both good and evil in them. But having looked at the demons we've seen thus far, one would have to wonder whatever she was talking about.

I always took this to mean that spirits can be good or evil but still embody the same emotions, we've just only seen the negative versions which we call 'demons'. For example Wynne is possessed by a spirit of Faith, perhaps a similar spirit causing harm would be known as a demon of Fanaticism. Alternatively, a desire demon would be the same as a spirit of love/compassion.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Copyright Theft wrote...

I always took this to mean that spirits can be good or evil but still embody the same emotions, we've just only seen the negative versions which we call 'demons'. For example Wynne is possessed by a spirit of Faith, perhaps a similar spirit causing harm would be known as a demon of Fanaticism. Alternatively, a desire demon would be the same as a spirit of love/compassion.

I was more thinking whether one spirit could embody multiple emotions, good and bad, which doesn't seem to be the case. In any case, I think Merrill says, "all spirits are dangerous." So perhaps she didn't mean that they had both good and bad sides to them, just that one had to be careful when dealing with them.

[Giltspur]

I think that the fall of Arlathan is tied to the loss of Elven immortaility.  Why?  Baldur's Gate II.  Bioware has probably changed things up enough to where a knucklehead like me can't piece it all together though.

So in BGII, Jon Irenicus tries to become as powerful as a god by stealing the spirit of the world tree in Suldanesselar, an ancient elven city.  Doing this threatens the elves' connection to nature.  And further they're ashamed to even talk about what happened.  It's like they want to forget.  Also later Irenicus hides Suldanesselar.

Well, let's imagine DA has a Jon Irenicus that succeeds in taking Venedahl's (Arlathan's tree) and in so doing destroyed elven immortality (and possibly created the taint).  And let's imagine that the elves didn't keep records because of shame over the event and that instead of the truth being recorded, we got elves blaming humans for corrupting them.  And maybe instead of Suldanesselar being hidden by a spell, something caused Arlathan to "sink" whatever that means. 

Something like that for elves maybe.

Now what about dwarves?  Let's look to KOTOR's "secret race".  The race that built a super weapon that unleashed a taint on the galaxy that nearly killed their race. (Is that the elves or the dwarves in DA...or both?).  At any rate the secret race use to have a connection to the Force.  But they were exposed to the Force so much that they lost their force sensitivity.  And so they have no Jedi.  This reminds me of Dwarves being cut off from the Fade.  They must have had Dwarven mages in the past but some abuse severed their connection to the Fade.  Maybe it was exposure to lyrium or maybe it was proximity to red lyrium.  Or maybe it had to do with golem creation.  I don't know.  But I assume they lost connection to the fade because of some event.

The thing about looking at old stories is they're not a map to what's going to happen.  They're a tease.  Bioware's going to twist their old ideas around in new ways.  And that part is hard to predict. 

For example, who's Irenicus in Dragon Age?  Is there an Elven Irenicus we'll find out about later?  Is it Flemeth?  Is it the one we call the Maker, who's a rebel god that's broken off from the other gods and just sort of sulks now?  Did Irenicus get turned into "a group of magisters" in the DA version of his story?  Or is there no connection at all to that element in BGII?  I don't know.  I find it interesting to think about...and fail to figure out to my satisfaction.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Giltspur wrote...

I think that the fall of Arlathan is tied to the loss of Elven immortaility.  Why?  Baldur's Gate II.  Bioware has probably changed things up enough to where a knucklehead like me can't piece it all together though.

Similarly, I speculate, of course. I think references to Golden City and Black City could be more to do with "pureness" and "corruption." Elven immortality being the pure one, and the darkspawn one being the corrupt one.

So in BGII, Jon Irenicus tries to become as powerful as a god by stealing the spirit of the world tree in Suldanesselar, an ancient elven city.  Doing this threatens the elves' connection to nature.  And further they're ashamed to even talk about what happened.  It's like they want to forget.  Also later Irenicus hides Suldanesselar.

I haven't played BG2, but interesting! It does have a familiar note to it.

Well, let's imagine DA has a Jon Irenicus that succeeds in taking Venedahl's (Arlathan's tree) and in so doing destroyed elven immortality (and possibly created the taint).  And let's imagine that the elves didn't keep records because of shame over the event and that instead of the truth being recorded, we got elves blaming humans for corrupting them.  And maybe instead of Suldanesselar being hidden by a spell, something caused Arlathan to "sink" whatever that means. 

Something like that for elves maybe.

Great analogy, it looks like. And I wonder if they'd really recycle a story this way. But it is the first time I'm hearing this possiblity, and you never know.

Now what about dwarves?  Let's look to KOTOR's "secret race".  The race that built a super weapon that unleashed a taint on the galaxy that nearly killed their race. (Is that the elves or the dwarves in DA...or both?).

The ancient elves or dwarves, sure. I wouldn't put it past the dwarves to build a super weapon - I'm thinking particularly about golems.

At any rate the secret race use to have a connection to the Force.  But they were exposed to the Force so much that they lost their force sensitivity.  And so they have no Jedi.

That's interesting, to say the least.

This reminds me of Dwarves being cut off from the Fade.  They must have had Dwarven mages in the past but some abuse severed their connection to the Fade.  Maybe it was exposure to lyrium or maybe it was proximity to red lyrium.  Or maybe it had to do with golem creation.  I don't know.  But I assume they lost connection to the fade because of some event.

Well, David Gaider has said that the reason why dwarves are cut off from the Fade is unknown, or not yet revealed, or will likely never be revealed. Take your pick. It doesn't appear to be exposure to lyrium, though. Will they ever change their mind and make it overexposure to lyrium or that particular type of lyrium found down there? Who knows?

In any case, there could be a link between the dwarven shaperate memory abruptly ending with some "first" thaig and their connection to the Fade being cut off. I find it weird that although there appears to be a rough estimate for when Arlathan was supposedly founded by elves, there is no such mention of the time when the "first" thaig was founded by dwarves. I believe this is intentionally done. And, what before the first thaig? Where were the dwarves then, if not underground? They had to have settlements somewhere. Surely, they just didn't "spring whole from the Stone."

The thing about looking at old stories is they're not a map to what's going to happen.  They're a tease.  Bioware's going to twist their old ideas around in new ways.  And that part is hard to predict.

That makes me wonder. Are we ever going to find out the actual cause of the taint? Finding it would mean several things. We'd know what the whole deal with the Black/Golden City is. It would expose Chantry as either right/wrong. If it is going to put the finger on either the dwarves or elves, it would put their beliefs to the test. It is going to change things big time. I don't even know if that is the whole point behind DA.

For example, who's Irenicus in Dragon Age?  Is there an Elven Irenicus we'll find out about later?  Is it Flemeth?  Is it the one we call the Maker, who's a rebel god that's broken off from the other gods and just sort of sulks now?  Did Irenicus get turned into "a group of magisters" in the DA version of his story?  Or is there no connection at all to that element in BGII?  I don't know.  I find it interesting to think about...and fail to figure out to my satisfaction.

But somehow I doubt we'll ever find anything about any of the deities. Flemeth, yes, surely.

You've put some interesting perspectives in my mind, for sure.

[dragonflight288]

Agreed. Although Merrill (an elf) believed that all the spirits, not just demons, can actually be dangerous. So, interpreted one way, it just perhaps mean that all spirits have some amount of both good and evil in them. But having looked at the demons we've seen thus far, one would have to wonder whatever she was talking about.

I would actually interpret that to mean that every spirit is not necessarily evil but dangerous because of what they represent. Most spirits aren't even concerned with mortals and care nothing for them. They find ideals in the mortals dreams that they find appealing and strive to be everything it symbolizes.

We have Justice who does all he can to see justice is done, first for the villagers wronged by the baroness, then Christoff, and finally the mages. But if you take the ideal of 'justice', it is not benevolent and charitable. Justice is cold and hard, blind to the pleas for mercy from the guily and cannot ignore any injustice in the world. Atonement and retribution must be equal to the crime.

If you have too much justice, there will never be any room for mercy. A man steals an loaf of bread because his family is starving, and is thus branded as a thief for the rest of his life and sentenced to years in prison. Is it justice to the man who only wanted to feed his family? Anders and Justice have already proven that the true ideal of Justice simply doesn't work outside the Fade because people see shades of grey in everything. There is no black and white.

Now if we were to take an attribute like valor and courage, brought down to its most ideal form, then we would have a bunch of reckless idiots charging hither and thither about seeking glory with no concern for the safety of themselves or those around them. Many would be harmed by this constant need for battle.

And if you take Mercy at its most ideal form you suddenly have every last criminal getting off the hook, without a need for reformation whatsoever.

[MichaelFinnegan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I would actually interpret that to mean that every spirit is not necessarily evil but dangerous because of what they represent. Most spirits aren't even concerned with mortals and care nothing for them. They find ideals in the mortals dreams that they find appealing and strive to be everything it symbolizes.

We have Justice who does all he can to see justice is done, first for the villagers wronged by the baroness, then Christoff, and finally the mages. But if you take the ideal of 'justice', it is not benevolent and charitable. Justice is cold and hard, blind to the pleas for mercy from the guily and cannot ignore any injustice in the world. Atonement and retribution must be equal to the crime.

If you have too much justice, there will never be any room for mercy. A man steals an loaf of bread because his family is starving, and is thus branded as a thief for the rest of his life and sentenced to years in prison. Is it justice to the man who only wanted to feed his family? Anders and Justice have already proven that the true ideal of Justice simply doesn't work outside the Fade because people see shades of grey in everything. There is no black and white.

Now if we were to take an attribute like valor and courage, brought down to its most ideal form, then we would have a bunch of reckless idiots charging hither and thither about seeking glory with no concern for the safety of themselves or those around them. Many would be harmed by this constant need for battle.

And if you take Mercy at its most ideal form you suddenly have every last criminal getting off the hook, without a need for reformation whatsoever.

I agree with you. That makes a great deal of sense. And very well put.

[dragonflight288]

Why thank you. *bows*

[Rifneno]

Giltspur wrote...

I think that the fall of Arlathan is tied to the loss of Elven immortaility.  Why?  Baldur's Gate II.  Bioware has probably changed things up enough to where a knucklehead like me can't piece it all together though.

So in BGII, Jon Irenicus tries to become as powerful as a god by stealing the spirit of the world tree in Suldanesselar, an ancient elven city.  Doing this threatens the elves' connection to nature.  And further they're ashamed to even talk about what happened.  It's like they want to forget.  Also later Irenicus hides Suldanesselar.

BG2 was such an awesome game. I wish the Eluvian led to the Forgotten Realms so we could yank Irenicus over to Thedas. Imagine how many templars it would take to bring down Irenicus.<3

Well, let's imagine DA has a Jon Irenicus that succeeds in taking Venedahl's (Arlathan's tree) and in so doing destroyed elven immortality (and possibly created the taint).  And let's imagine that the elves didn't keep records because of shame over the event and that instead of the truth being recorded, we got elves blaming humans for corrupting them.  And maybe instead of Suldanesselar being hidden by a spell, something caused Arlathan to "sink" whatever that means.

My theory if you haven't read it already.

At least on Arlathan. But I think you're right about the darkspawn taint connection too. When I first heard that David Gaider confirmed darkspawn don't suffer from aging or even hunger (and very likely disease) it set off some deafening alarm bells in my head. We also know that the taint originated in the Fade, and the immortal elven elders would spend centuries at a time in the Fade before humans douched everything up. Whether the elves did it intentionally, or the source of their immortality decayed without connection to them, all non-religious (i.e. Chantry) signs point to elven roots in the taint. Perhaps a MAD plan (and that, BTW, is the most appropriate acronym ever).

The thing about looking at old stories is they're not a map to what's going to happen.  They're a tease.  Bioware's going to twist their old ideas around in new ways.  And that part is hard to predict.

To be fair, a genuinely new idea is pretty much impossible. Everything is similar to something else. Whenever I used to read the ME forums and saw "A cosmic alien horror lying in wait way out there? Where have I heard that before? LOL." I'd wonder if Shakespeare ever had to listen to "A story where two people fall in love when they really shouldn't? Where I have I heard that before? LOL." after writing Romeo & Juliet.

This reminds me of Dwarves being cut off from the Fade. They must have had Dwarven mages in the past but some abuse severed their connection to the Fade. Maybe it was exposure to lyrium or maybe it was proximity to red lyrium. Or maybe it had to do with golem creation

I don't think it's the last two. David Gaider told us that the red lyrium of the Primeval Thaig is indeed very different from regular lyrium. And I believe that lyrium is only found either in the PT itself, or in the surrounding area (Kirkwall, ect.). As for golems, dwarves sometimes capture elves to make into unwilling golems. Branka sure as hell does if she's let to live and Harrowmont given the throne (he makes a ruling that dwarves shall no longer be made golems, but he can't stop her from illegally kidnapping other races).

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I haven't played BG2, but interesting! It does have a familiar note to it.

! My God, man! What are you waiting for! Get yourself a $10 calculator at Wal-Mart, install Windows 0.3beta on it, and find out how Bioware got the reputation it had for RPGs. I think they invented Game of the Year awards because they weren't satisfied with just building statues to BG2.

That makes me wonder. Are we ever going to find out the actual cause of the taint? Finding it would mean several things. We'd know what the whole deal with the Black/Golden City is. It would expose Chantry as either right/wrong. If it is going to put the finger on either the dwarves or elves, it would put their beliefs to the test. It is going to change things big time. I don't even know if that is the whole point behind DA.

I believe we will. I think they do have the major story arcs planned out. For instance, I recall asking in a thread where people were asking the devs questions, two questions. One was whether Orsino was a harvester as we know them from GoA or is he a model recycle... the other was how big are the Circles population wise. He answered the former and didn't even quote the other being asked. Now, I'm not complaining, he doesn't owe me an answer and I am grateful for the one I did get. What I mean is I think it was because they already had it all decided about the harvesters, but an estimate of the Circle population is a fine point thing that they hadn't hammered out behind the scenes. The fact he told us that darkspawn can be sustained forever by the taint indicates to me that they have in fact decided what the taint is.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I haven't played BG2, but interesting! It does have a familiar note to it.

! My God, man! What are you waiting for! Get yourself a $10 calculator at Wal-Mart, install Windows 0.3beta on it, and find out how Bioware got the reputation it had for RPGs. I think they invented Game of the Year awards because they weren't satisfied with just building statues to BG2.

I know, I know. I even bought the game from GOG a few weeks ago for less than $10. I haven't yet started to play for lack of time...

That makes me wonder. Are we ever going to find out the actual cause of the taint? Finding it would mean several things. We'd know what the whole deal with the Black/Golden City is. It would expose Chantry as either right/wrong. If it is going to put the finger on either the dwarves or elves, it would put their beliefs to the test. It is going to change things big time. I don't even know if that is the whole point behind DA.

I believe we will. I think they do have the major story arcs planned out. For instance, I recall asking in a thread where people were asking the devs questions, two questions. One was whether Orsino was a harvester as we know them from GoA or is he a model recycle... the other was how big are the Circles population wise. He answered the former and didn't even quote the other being asked. Now, I'm not complaining, he doesn't owe me an answer and I am grateful for the one I did get. What I mean is I think it was because they already had it all decided about the harvesters, but an estimate of the Circle population is a fine point thing that they hadn't hammered out behind the scenes. The fact he told us that darkspawn can be sustained forever by the taint indicates to me that they have in fact decided what the taint is.

I hope you're right about us finding out about the taint. But I'm not sure they're actually going to tell us. It's just a weird feeling I have.

I have a question to you though. I'm trying to find out where Gaider mentined about darkspawn being immortal (not aging). I only found that the taint nourishes them just as food nourishes others, but no explicit reference to their not aging. I'm not sure whether he talked about it rather than write in the forums - there is even no mention about it in the Wiki. I think it is a subtle point that needs attention. Otherwise, we could be making a very big assumption.

[Cody]

Rifneno wrote...

Remember that after the Dalish PC and Tamlen find the Eluvian, not only did they contract the blight disease from it but the area was suddenly teeming with darkspawn. It was like they flipped a switch. There's any number of explanations but the most obvious is that wherever that Eluvian's twin was (they worked in pairs, right?) the other side still had functional teleportation and was using it to go to the one Tamlen's dumb ass activated. Or at least the general proximity.

So, who wants to help Merrill fix her portal to the heart of evil itself?

Do not forget that there was an Eluvian in the nest that the brood mother was living in. The Darkspawn could have been there for a long time. Tamlen may have turned it on and then the Darkspawn noticed it and went in to investigate. Thus all hell broke loose in the cave.

As it is the save Eluvian that was at the nest and used by Morrigan seemed to be reletivly safe. Morrigan even hinted of going in and out of it since her child was inside the portal. So I do not think that the mirror that Merrill is working on would let the blight in. It only did the first time because one Eluvian was literaly behind the broodmother.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 05 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

CodyMelch wrote...

Do not forget that there was an Eluvian in the nest that the brood mother was living in. The Darkspawn could have been there for a long time. Tamlen may have turned it on and then the Darkspawn noticed it and went in to investigate. Thus all hell broke loose in the cave.

As it is the save Eluvian that was at the nest and used by Morrigan seemed to be reletivly safe. Morrigan even hinted of going in and out of it since her child was inside the portal. So I do not think that the mirror that Merrill is working on would let the blight in. It only did the first time because one Eluvian was literaly behind the broodmother.

Interesting. Just goes to show that there are so many ways to interpret things.

Yes, quite possible. Although, Morrigan seemed to suggest it was a one way trip. Which inturn makes me wonder if her son was indeed on the other side.

In any case, the thing with the Eluvians that interests me is that they end up tainted after they transmit the taint from one place to another. I wonder what that could mean. [EDIT: On second thoughts, if Eluvians work in pairs, then it would make sense if the taint was already on the other side.]

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 06 août 2011 - 05:57 .