95 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Interesting. Just goes to show that there are so many ways to interpret things.

Yes, quite possible. Although, Morrigan seemed to suggest it was a one way trip. Which inturn makes me wonder if her son was indeed on the other side.

In any case, the thing with the Eluvians that interests me is that they end up tainted after they transmit the taint from one place to another. I wonder what that could mean.

How many Eluvians do we know are tainted? I'm of the opinion that the Eluvians may have been used to access the Golden/Black City, and as such, were connected to the source of the Taint. If the City was "black" all along, and the magisters then portaled in and portaled out through the Eluvian, the residue of that corruption, that most raw and powerful corruption, infused itself in the mirrors. Maybe the magics were not strong enough to repel it, or by Eluvians showing or moving things in their "true" form, what emerged from the Eluvian post-City-invasion, stained the glass.

If there are only a handful of mirrors used for the invasion to the City, maybe those were the only ones tainted, but the legend of that taint transference still is uttered.

Pure speculation though.

[jlb524]

Marethari was talking out of her ass and thought the eluvians were 'evil/dangerous' just cuz Tamlen/Mahariel got tainted by it. She never studied the things beyond that.

The eluvians seem to be a powerful elven artifact that the ancient elves used often to communicate and teleport to different cities. I think finding one and studying it 'should' be a big deal to any Dalish Keeper but Marethari let fear guide her.

And the humans caused the downfall of the elves.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Well, we know that Marethari feared what Merrill would uncover in her investigation into the mirror. So, perhaps she knows something - not factually perhaps, but something (written, perhaps?) that has been passed down the ages.

So let's think a bit about that transference through Eluvians. Do we know if their usage requires blood magic? If I understand the taint correctly, it is a kind of blood corruption. So, the corruption of the mirrors in turn could be born out of an unholy union of blood magic and corruption. And as you said it could become infused into the mirrors themselves.

I know it is a bit vague, but could it be that?

[jlb524]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Well, we know that Marethari feared what Merrill would uncover in her investigation into the mirror. So, perhaps she knows something - not factually perhaps, but something (written, perhaps?) that has been passed down the ages.

So let's think a bit about that transference through Eluvians. Do we know if their usage requires blood magic? If I understand the taint correctly, it is a kind of blood corruption. So, the corruption of the mirrors in turn could be born out of an unholy union of blood magic and corruption. And as you said it could become infused into the mirrors themselves.

I know it is a bit vague, but could it be that?

I don't think Marethari knows anything about them...she was reluctant to study them.

Perhaps she feared Merrill would find something and steal her glory as Keeper?

[whykikyouwhy]

What if the mirrors work like teleporters in the Star Trek universe? Digitize matter into small elements then reform it on the other side? In which case, it might be that some of the corruption doesn't reform, but stays lodged in the mirror, melding with the mirror. But the amount is so small that it still leaves the traveler tainted (it doesn't cleanse him/her).

[MichaelFinnegan]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't think Marethari knows anything about them...she was reluctant to study them.

Perhaps she feared Merrill would find something and steal her glory as Keeper?

If memory serves me right, the Dalish (the keeper, perhaps?) did have a book about Eluvians, that Morrigan supposedly stole. If that is the case, Marethari could know more. But I'd guess she was of a conservative sort, not willing to take chances as it were. A complete contrast to Merrill's personality, and I should say to the Dalish's intentions to recreate their history.

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What if the mirrors work like teleporters in the Star Trek universe? Digitize matter into small elements then reform it on the other side? In which case, it might be that some of the corruption doesn't reform, but stays lodged in the mirror, melding with the mirror. But the amount is so small that it still leaves the traveler tainted (it doesn't cleanse him/her).

I don't know how they work...but I want to XD

I will only say that they have no connection to the Fade.  If they did, while you were chatting up Morrigan in WH in front of that mirror, demons would have poured out...did they?  No.

The same could be said for the eluvian found in the DE origin...both Tamlen and Mahariel stood there looking at it and no demons poured out...the thing was even active before that and no demons left it to terrorize the clan.

So, I think Marethari's 'claim' that Audacity could escape through one was B.S.  She was played by the pride demon, not Merrill.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What if the mirrors work like teleporters in the Star Trek universe? Digitize matter into small elements then reform it on the other side? In which case, it might be that some of the corruption doesn't reform, but stays lodged in the mirror, melding with the mirror. But the amount is so small that it still leaves the traveler tainted (it doesn't cleanse him/her).

Ah, the transporter. Could be, but I guess we won't probably get such a "scientific" explanation for Eluvians. Yes, but I see your point - the taint perhaps gets into the bloodsteam of the user.

[jlb524]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If memory serves me right, the Dalish (the keeper, perhaps?) did have a book about Eluvians, that Morrigan supposedly stole. If that is the case, Marethari could know more. But I'd guess she was of a conservative sort, not willing to take chances as it were. A complete contrast to Merrill's personality, and I should say to the Dalish's intentions to recreate their history.

That was not Marethari's clan though.  Morrigan stole it from another clan....keep in mind that the Dalish clans only meet every 10 years or so.  'If' that book had been passed to Marethari's clan (and Merrill by extension), Merrill would probably have known how to activate the eluvian...but it wasn't.

[whykikyouwhy]

jlb524 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What if the mirrors work like teleporters in the Star Trek universe? Digitize matter into small elements then reform it on the other side? In which case, it might be that some of the corruption doesn't reform, but stays lodged in the mirror, melding with the mirror. But the amount is so small that it still leaves the traveler tainted (it doesn't cleanse him/her).

I don't know how they work...but I want to XD

I will only say that they have no connection to the Fade.  If they did, while you were chatting up Morrigan in WH in front of that mirror, demons would have poured out...did they?  No.

The same could be said for the eluvian found in the DE origin...both Tamlen and Mahariel stood there looking at it and no demons poured out...the thing was even active before that and no demons left it to terrorize the clan.

So, I think Marethari's 'claim' that Audacity could escape through one was B.S.  She was played by the pride demon, not Merrill.

What if the control is in activation? I don't think the mirrors are always open portals. So Morrigan activated the mirror, stood on one side of it and chatted, but the mirror was on standby - waiting for her to unlock it, or take it off of pause. Maybe?

[MichaelFinnegan]

jlb524 wrote...

That was not Marethari's clan though.  Morrigan stole it from another clan....keep in mind that the Dalish clans only meet every 10 years or so.  'If' that book had been passed to Marethari's clan (and Merrill by extension), Merrill would probably have known how to activate the eluvian...but it wasn't.

Hmm. Could be. But would the keeper really share such information? One of the Keeper's task is to guide the clan, which means basically to guide them as the Keeper sees fit. Knowing Marethari's personality, I'd say she would not. Although, one could argue that Merrill could have insisted on looking at the book, if she was aware of its existence.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What if the control is in activation? I don't think the mirrors are always open portals. So Morrigan activated the mirror, stood on one side of it and chatted, but the mirror was on standby - waiting for her to unlock it, or take it off of pause. Maybe?

That makes me wonder again. Could it require some form of magic to activate? I know this doesn't explain Tamlen's case, but, well...

[whykikyouwhy]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What if the control is in activation? I don't think the mirrors are always open portals. So Morrigan activated the mirror, stood on one side of it and chatted, but the mirror was on standby - waiting for her to unlock it, or take it off of pause. Maybe?

That makes me wonder again. Could it require some form of magic to activate? I know this doesn't explain Tamlen's case, but, well...

Maybe magic to control but not to activate. That could possibly explain Tamlen, although for all I know, Tamlen has some talent as a mage.

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What if the control is in activation? I don't think the mirrors are always open portals. So Morrigan activated the mirror, stood on one side of it and chatted, but the mirror was on standby - waiting for her to unlock it, or take it off of pause. Maybe?

Morrigan did nothing extra to take it from standby though.  Also, why would Morrigan just want to go to the Fade?

She had been there before and refuses to deal with demons (even though she will continue Flemeth's plans regardless of the fact that Flemeth is trying to possess her O_o).

Also, Tamlen and Mahariel did nothing to unlock their eluvian (they aren't even mages)...it was active when they got there and it glowed 'purple' like Morrigan's eluvian. 

[jlb524]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Hmm. Could be. But would the keeper really share such information? One of the Keeper's task is to guide the clan, which means basically to guide them as the Keeper sees fit. Knowing Marethari's personality, I'd say she would not. Although, one could argue that Merrill could have insisted on looking at the book, if she was aware of its existence.

They couldn't have possibly had 'that' book as they had been long gone to Kirkwall by then. 

But, say Marethari saw the book earlier in a big old clan meeting...apparently Morrigan read the book and found something useful out of it...why wouldn't Marethari come to the same conclusion?

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't think the activation is something visible exactly. She just needs to touch it. And that's really all of the animation we see, actually (if memory serves). But maybe to first use it, she did something special...I don't know.

I'm not convinced that every Eluvian goes to the Fade. Maybe goes through, like a tunnel, but not making any pitstops. The City may not be in the Fade - it may exist on a separate plane, or in a pocket within the Fade, etc. Where exactly Morrigan was going, I don't know. (and I don't recall if she actually makes mention - she was so annoyingly vague in that scene! But I forgave her, cuz she hawt.)

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't think the activation is something visible exactly. She just needs to touch it. And that's really all of the animation we see, actually (if memory serves). But maybe to first use it, she did something special...I don't know.

She said she took great measures to find and activate the portal.  But it seems you have to touch the portal to actually go through it (Morrigan and Tamlen both did that) and circly things formed on the surface.  From my impression of Morrigan, the thing was active but you had to touch it in order to go through.  Consider Merrill's dialog in Act 3...she felt 'power' in her mirror but it didn't do anything (or glow purple)...she didn't know how to activate it. 

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I'm not convinced that every Eluvian goes to the Fade. Maybe goes through, like a tunnel, but not making any pitstops. The City may not be in the Fade - it may exist on a separate plane, or in a pocket within the Fade, etc. Where exactly Morrigan was going, I don't know. (and I don't recall if she actually makes mention - she was so annoyingly vague in that scene! But I forgave her, cuz she hawt.)

According to Morrigan, her Eluvian goes beyond the Fade.    She was going some place to find more power in order to fight Flemeth.  The Fade itself wouldn't offer this (Morrigan would know that, traveling in the Fade).

I personally think that none of the Eluvians link to the Fade...why would they?    Any podunk mage can enter the Fade...no biggie.  It has to be something more than that.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 août 2011 - 08:12 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Maybe the activation is the antithesis of being able to fly in Peter Pan. You have to think *unhappy* thoughts, which Morrigan is quite capable of, but Merrill is not.

Any mage can enter the Fade, but can they enter *all* areas of the Fade? Is it possible for there to be a walled off island (or city...???) in the Fade that is not reached by conventional living-world-to-Fade means? Just mulling on planar theory - all of the planes in D&D and the like. While we may not have heard of such things in DA, they might exist.

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Maybe the activation is the antithesis of being able to fly in Peter Pan. You have to think *unhappy* thoughts, which Morrigan is quite capable of, but Merrill is not.

I think Merrill could muster an unhappy thought...especially if rivaled.  If on the friend path, she just has to remember that griffons will never exist again in the world..unhappy

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Any mage can enter the Fade, but can they enter *all* areas of the Fade? Is it possible for there to be a walled off island (or city...???) in the Fade that is not reached by conventional living-world-to-Fade means? Just mulling on planar theory - all of the planes in D&D and the like. While we may not have heard of such things in DA, they might exist.

Like I said, according to Morrigan (if we believe her) there is a world beyond the Fade.  Considering that the DA Fade is a land of ideas, I'm not sure that any of it would be walled off from any mage.

[Esbatty]

For an ancient Elf... Marethari has got it goin' on. Knowwhatimsayin'?

[jlb524]

Filament wrote...

Note that if Eluvians did link to the Fade, and Morrigan literally went through the Eluvian into the Fade with her physical body, that would be way different from what any podunk mage can do.

Not really...you can send Jowan to the Fade with blood magic or a whole bunch o lyrium. 

Thus, it wouldn't be all that cooler/greater than what already happened in Origins. 

[jlb524]

Filament wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Filament wrote...

Note that if Eluvians did link to the Fade, and Morrigan literally went through the Eluvian into the Fade with her physical body, that would be way different from what any podunk mage can do.

Not really...you can send Jowan to the Fade with blood magic or a whole bunch o lyrium. 

Thus, it wouldn't be all that cooler/greater than what already happened in Origins. 

You send Jowan's mind/spirit to the Fade, not Jowan physically. Morrigan physically enters the Eluvian. It's a big difference. A Cardinal Rule of Magic big difference.

Hmm...yes.

Which means Morrigan does not go to the Fade through the Eluvian. 

[Esbatty]

Filament wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Filament wrote...

Note that if Eluvians did link to the Fade, and Morrigan literally went through the Eluvian into the Fade with her physical body, that would be way different from what any podunk mage can do.

Not really...you can send Jowan to the Fade with blood magic or a whole bunch o lyrium. 

Thus, it wouldn't be all that cooler/greater than what already happened in Origins. 

You send Jowan's mind/spirit to the Fade, not Jowan physically. Morrigan physically enters the Eluvian. It's a big difference. A Cardinal Rule of Magic big difference.

And I bet before Dumat whispered sweet nothings into the dreams of Magisters that it was "unpossible" to magic your arse into Heaven.