95 réponses à ce sujet

[Esbatty]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think part of the problem with trying to theorize on the City and the use of the Eluvians is that by using the word "city" we expect an actual location or physical place. It how our brains wrap around an intangible concept. Maybe it was never meant to be something physical - and whatever the Magisters accessed was either not physical, or was not the City they were looking for. Just as we paint heaven to have pearly gates and fluffy clouds in order to make it accessible for our minds, Thedans may be doing the same with the two Cities.

I think Esbatty is on to something though. The wiki states this:
"The Chantry also holds that when a person dies, their spirit passes through the Fade to the afterlife. Those who have turned away from the Maker are doomed to wander the Fade forever as lost souls. Fade spirits such as Justice claim that the dead pass to a realm beyond the Fade but are uncertain where."

So the Fade is a super highway of sorts. In order to seemingly teleport across large distances and planes, you need to merge into the soul traffic and get shuttled along through the Fade. So the Eluvians may link across the Fade, and use the Spirits as conduits or fuel in order to operate - a person using an Eluvian doesn't step into the Fade, but uses its properties. Like the moving walkway in an airport. The Fade would be the gears under the conveyor belt - you step on the belt (through the mirror) and are moving along without actually touching the gears/motor/etc. The City accessible through an Eluvian may be planar in actuality, or just another form of ether (intangible heaven or a bundle of energy/spirit). But that goes into my Twinkie theory, which may be completely wrong...but I think I just like talking about Twinkies.

A tainted Eluvian could be one that opens to the Fade somewhat instead of passing over it - a fissure of crack allows some of the actual Fade to seep in and touch the user. Which could explain how a demon could pass through the Eluvian, or can be seen through the Eluvian.

For once I'm not being accused of simply being "on something", so thats much appreciated. I"m not a bundle of awkwardness and innuendo.

...

A tainted Eluvian might accelerate the "Blighting Process". Since Tamlen and Mahariel, by just being exposed to its presence for a brief time were tainted. For all we know the Magisters used a series of Eluvians to go all at once to the Golden City.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I do think that the Fade is much more than a super highway - it has many uses/roles. But I think that maybe the powers residing within it were harnessed for said highway. I would venture to say that the common understanding of the soul is that it's the lifeforce, that which makes us unique in how we think and feel - that spirit essence that embodies the workings of the heart and mind. With all of the supposed souls and spirits moving around and through the Fade, there is bound to be energy created (though this then applies the laws of physics to the ethereal). So maybe the Elves knew how to tap into this energy, and thus the conduits and circuits for the Eluvian were born.

But isn't this more or less how magic in general is supposed to work? That the energies (debatably from or of the spirits) of the Fade are channeled by mages to do magic? Regarding the Eluvian using the Fade's energies and also working as a conduit/highway to the beyond, who can say at the moment? Maybe it is exactly as you describe.

And here is where I scratch my head and then shrug some more.

Yep, this game is ripe for speculation. Leading to head scratching. And shrugging. And leading me more or less to frustration in the end. I suppose in the end it's all in good fun.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I'm beginning to think that there are actually two kinds of mutually antagonistic "powers" active. Both of which may be trying to gain footholds into Thedas.

I was always a bit stuck on the notion that there were two salient metaphysical threats to Thedas- The demons of various kinds, and then the Taint/Darkspawn.

Ah, I forgot the demons. Perhaps there are now three different threats to Thedas from the beyond, of varying degree.

Let me name the two I meant: the darkspawn taint, and the "evil" idol we discover in the Primeval Thaig. To me the threats from these two far exclipse the threat from demons, because there seems to be some purpose, some driving motive to wreak the greatest havoc, to gain the greatest power, which an unorganized "demon force" seem to lack. An abomination or two could take out entire villages, but darkspawn could end everything.

I've had a thought about the lyrium idol. I'm not sure if someone didn't already discuss it in these forums. It has to do with what Bartrand and his steward say during the quest, Family Matters.

Bartrand's stewart (Heugen?) says this:
"Bartrand was making the guards eat lyrium. He was cutting pieces [of flesh] off the servants. He wanted to make 'them' hear the song."
Note the emphasis on "them." It isn't exactly clear whom he meant - Bartrand's guards, his servants, or both.

Later, Bartrand himself says:
"Not a statue, an idol."
"Stop saying that! I know I shouldn't have sold it to that woman! I know it was a mistake! A mistake!"
"It wants to be worshipped! It wants me! It wants me back!"
"She will not feed it - not like I did."

My interpretation:
I think Bartrand's steward meant the guards by "them." And Bartrand meant he was feeding the idol with pieces of flesh cut off his servants. This means that Bartrand was making his guards eat lyrium to hear the song from the idol, and he was doing some form of sacrifical ritual to feed the idol with his servants' flesh. And he was sure that Meredith won't carry out this sacrifical ritual, making perhaps the idol mad that he'd sold it to her. The apparent monologue he had with himself, was perhaps some sort of communication with the idol, which having ended up in Meredith's hands knew that its purpose was thwarted. Hence it had forced Bartrand to come back to Kirkwall.

If this is true, then the idol had a purpose. It wanted to have worshippers, and it wanted sacrifices. Why? Perhaps to grow in power? To raise an army perhaps? It was mad that Bartrand had sold it to Meredith and so it probably knew that such a growth in its power would be hampered, its purpose even lost.

It almost looks as if the idol, or more precisely what was within it, was waiting for someone to pick it up and bring it to power. This is why I said there are apparently now two kinds of threats to Thedas - the darkspawn and this idol, whatever it represents.

If anyone is interested in the exact converations:
conversation with steward
converation with Bartrand

I can't help thinking of Avernus's findings.  The Taint was something alien to the demons.

Yes. And there is in some codex mentiond that even the most powerful demons don't go to the supposedly corrupted Black City we see in the Fade. Reasons unknown.

[whykikyouwhy]

I touched upon this in other threads (and maybe here too...I should go back and check), but I think the feeding of the idol to the guards and servants was an echo of what may have happened in the history of the Primeval Thaig. There's a codex entry on the Profanes that makes reference to the writer's people dying of hunger and in turn, eating gods. Perhaps the idol compelled them to feast upon it (or whatever it was in past times - clearly it was a larger object) and thus, the Profanes were born from the intake. Bartrand may have been doing the same thing - bending to the will of the idol, to whatever is housed within it, in order to recreate the past - or try to improve upon it.

Why would the idol want to be consumed? Maybe the entity (??) within in wanted freedom (if it was trapped in that idol-state - by its own means or by being imprisoned) - if the right vessel was procured, the intake/consumption of idol pieces would allow the idol to be reborn again, after a fashion. Or, idol consumption would possibly change the feasters into something grand and great - some hybrid creature. The Profanes may or may not have been the desired end result. Perhaps the people that became the Profanes did not have the required physique or soul to properly handle the magics.

As for the taint and demons - maybe demons can't cross that threshold, or demons cannot be tainted based on their very nature and make up. There's are archdemons, sure, but are they demons in the standard sense, or is that just a moniker tagged on to imply "big bad evil thing?"

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I touched upon this in other threads (and maybe here too...I should go back and check), but I think the feeding of the idol to the guards and servants was an echo of what may have happened in the history of the Primeval Thaig.

I see where you might be right about how what is happening now could have similarly happened (to greater or lesser success on the part of the idol) in the past. But, if you go through the conversations I gave links to, it is very specifically mentioned that the idol was fed with flesh (we can take that to mean blood, too) from the servants, and the guards were fed lyrium (it is unclear which type of lyrium is meant, however). The "craziness" of the guards could just as well have been caused by the regular variety.

There's a codex entry on the Profanes that makes reference to the writer's people dying of hunger and in turn, eating gods. Perhaps the idol compelled them to feast upon it (or whatever it was in past times - clearly it was a larger object) and thus, the Profanes were born from the intake. Bartrand may have been doing the same thing - bending to the will of the idol, to whatever is housed within it, in order to recreate the past - or try to improve upon it.

Yes, though, the one difference I notice is that there is no mention of sacrifices in that codex. It is about some injustice done to those who were imprisoned, and how to survive they consumed their gods (which can be taken to mean that red lyrium, too). Not sure what to make of that, but it isn't exactly identical to what happened with Bartrand. In the case of Bartrand, as I noted earlier, I think he may just have been feeding regular lyrium to his guards, assuming that he could make them hear the song - I'm not entirely sure if this was actually the idol's doing, but it could be.

Why would the idol want to be consumed? Maybe the entity (??) within in wanted freedom (if it was trapped in that idol-state - by its own means or by being imprisoned) - if the right vessel was procured, the intake/consumption of idol pieces would allow the idol to be reborn again, after a fashion. Or, idol consumption would possibly change the feasters into something grand and great - some hybrid creature. The Profanes may or may not have been the desired end result. Perhaps the people that became the Profanes did not have the required physique or soul to properly handle the magics.

I think we need to be a bit careful in interpreting the consumption of "which" lyrium in each case, simply because it is quite unclear if Bartrand's steward actually meant that same red variety of lyrium was fed to the guards, or even that he meant the idol itself was fed to the guards.

The really odd thing though is Bartrand didn't have that idol when he was doing all this. Was he perhaps referring to that fragment of it? What do you make of that?

As for the taint and demons - maybe demons can't cross that threshold, or demons cannot be tainted based on their very nature and make up. There's are archdemons, sure, but are they demons in the standard sense, or is that just a moniker tagged on to imply "big bad evil thing?"

I somehow interpreted the demons not going thing to mean that they're somehow frightened of the corruption. The why of it is quite unclear, just that they seem to be. And they also don't appear to have anything to do with the origins of the taint. They seem to be completely separate from it.

Archdemons - just a tag, I'm guessing. Not necessarily a demon in a literal sense. Or... wait. Let me just say, I don't know.

EDIT: Clearing up the meanings of a few sentences.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 07 août 2011 - 02:14 .

[Darius Vir]

MichaelFinnegan, this is a bit of a secondary point (at best)...but I'm confused that the demons/spirits would even have the OPTION of going near the Black City.  I also remember the codex you're referring to, which said that powerful demons avoided the city. 

I was under the impression that the Black City is always equidistant from every other part of the Fade.  So, a mage visiting the Fade- Magisters and whatever stunt they pulled excepted- couldn't really get closer or farther from the city.  Would the same rule not apply to a demon?  I'm getting the impression that the Black City, whatever it is, is visible from the Fade but is actually in some realm beyond, and probably always was. 

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

MichaelFinnegan, this is a bit of a secondary point (at best)...but I'm confused that the demons/spirits would even have the OPTION of going near the Black City.  I also remember the codex you're referring to, which said that powerful demons avoided the city. 

I was under the impression that the Black City is always equidistant from every other part of the Fade.  So, a mage visiting the Fade- Magisters and whatever stunt they pulled excepted- couldn't really get closer or farther from the city.  Would the same rule not apply to a demon?  I'm getting the impression that the Black City, whatever it is, is visible from the Fade but is actually in some realm beyond, and probably always was.

It does appear to be. Since both the things - Black City being seemingly unreachable from the Fade and the mention that powerful demons seem to avoid the place - are in the same codex, perhaps the enchanter who wrote this didn't find it contradictory. I agree though it is a confusing matter, especially regarding the demons.

We do have a story (from the codex: The Maker's First Children) that the spirits of the Fade once were inhabitants of the Golden City and that the Maker, seeing their lack of creative abilities, cast them out into the Fade. This indicates that perhaps the Golden City was once a part of the Fade. And later that connection was perhaps severed when He turned fom His first children - the spirits. Much of it is hyperbole, I'm sure, and hard to explain because of that.

I think the link between the Fade and the mortal realm, and exactly what these spirits are are some of the hardest things to grasp. There are a couple of things I found interesting, though:
1. The Maker apparently made the spirits exactly like Him, except from His ability to create. (From: Maker's First Children, again)
2. The Maker took from the Fade a measure of its living flesh and placed it apart from the spirits... (From: The Maker)

#1 suggests that each and every spirit has much of the abilities of the Maker, except the spark of the "divine." And #2 suggests that something was separated from the Fade and formed anew as the mortal realm, that something being "the living flesh."

Now, I do not know what this means and how much of it is actually what the Chantry belives to be true. But whatever be the case, I can imagine a time when, as the world was formed, or let's just say a time now forgotten perhaps, its inhabitants would have needed to "struggle" to survive. I think this was a time when the mortals did not have the ability to do magic. They would just go to the Fade as they dreamed. The Veil then perhaps was strong enough. Later, somehow, this started changing - maybe because the spirits started to "see" the mortals when they entered the Fade. Whatever the reason, means were devised to cross the Veil - both sides perhaps eager to know what the other was about. And knowledge of the magic that perhaps the spirits knew started becoming available to the mortals. And still later on, the mortals  (perhaps the magisters) learnt the existence of the Golden City and started to find ways to breach that second Veil that existed between the Fade and the Golden City.

One of the grander mysteries to me is actually this mysterious substance lyrium. Where did it come from? Was it the one substance that altered the way of things? Was it the one that started giving mortals the ability to do magic?

I think I might have gone wayyy off topic. Sorry for that. Just trying to see the bigger picture.

[whykikyouwhy]

A small pondering re: lyrium (and do note, I have had only one cup of coffee) - perhaps at some point in time, pieces of the Fade crumbled off and fell into the mortal world. Became deposits deep in the earth. Or, if the Fade and the mortal realm were more physically connected once, the lyrium deposits could be residual from that connection - the Fade was cut off, severed harshly, but the veins of the ore still run deep, and are insidiously threaded through the world.

Again, I point out my disclaimer regarding coffee.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

A small pondering re: lyrium (and do note, I have had only one cup of coffee) - perhaps at some point in time, pieces of the Fade crumbled off and fell into the mortal world. Became deposits deep in the earth.

You're suggesting here that the two realms were once separate, the Veil always existed, and sometime later, somehow  "matter" from the Fade moved into the mortal realm. How about its converse? Did matter from the mortal realm move into the Fade? Now what would that mean? Could we hypothesize that as matter moves from the first realm to the second, an equal amount must move back to the first realm?

Do we have any evidence of matter moving from the mortal realm to the Fade, though? Well, the fiasco of the magisters could count - but at the moment I don't think we really know if they went physically into the Fade. Spirits, demons all seem to be happily able to move from the Fade into the mortal realm - the "summoning sciences" for instance.

Or, if the Fade and the mortal realm were more physically connected once, the lyrium deposits could be residual from that connection - the Fade was cut off, severed harshly, but the veins of the ore still run deep, and are insidiously threaded through the world.

Here you say, as an alternate explanation perhaps,  that the two realms were never really separate, but were made separate at one time by a metaphysical barrier - aka the Veil. This is what perhaps could be interpreted from the Chantry's version. If one looks at the codex entry, The Maker, it specifically says that the mortal realm was crafted by taking matter (the "fleshy" portion) out of the Fade.

A very big assumption is that lyrium is of/from the Fade. What if that is not true? In any case, I'm a bit interested in its specific properties:
1. A mage can use it to enter the Fade in a conscious state
2. It is quite dangerous to mine it, in its raw state, to anyone except for those who are cut off from the Fade (the dwarves, although I do not know this should be true of the tranquil also)

It almost looks as if all that lyrium was put there (deep?) underground and it was given some properties that would make it difficult to use for anyone who was connected with the Fade - which going by what Chantry thinks would be just about everyone in the mortal realm at the start.

What if (very, very big assumption) the purpose why that was done was simply to power the Veil? As in, what if raw lyrium is the substance/fuel/whatever that manifests the Veil - the metaphysical barrier? What if, that is its chief property - one that we don't know of, yet?

EDIT: Correcting one sentence.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 09 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Having a sort of balance system in place would be interesting - a point for point of what enters the fade must then push something into the mortal realm and vice versa. (If this is indeed what you mean - I may have muddled it horribly.)

Looking at demons and spirits and such - their presence is often explained away by the Veil being weak, so they slip through the cracks, in essence. But what if for every mage walking the fade or every dreamer taking a midnight romp, a spirit/demon gets to dwell in the mortal world? The only problem with this would be staying power - the mage leaves the fade, but the demon/spirit remains amongst mortals. Hmm...maybe *that* causes a thinning of the veil?

I don't have any proof of matter (like lyrium) entering the mortal realm, or matter from the mortal realm entering the fade. Just more hazy speculation on my part.

Lyrium powering the veil...possibly. But in what manner? There doesn't seem to be any conscious factory work being done. The fueling would come just from mages doing their thing day after day, so then it almost has an organic operative quality. Like an oxygen to CO2 relationship between people and plants. When magic is being used, the veil maintains, but when magic is not used or weak, the veil shifts? I wonder.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Having a sort of balance system in place would be interesting - a point for point of what enters the fade must then push something into the mortal realm and vice versa. (If this is indeed what you mean - I may have muddled it horribly.)

Yep, this is what I meant.

Looking at demons and spirits and such - their presence is often explained away by the Veil being weak, so they slip through the cracks, in essence. But what if for every mage walking the fade or every dreamer taking a midnight romp, a spirit/demon gets to dwell in the mortal world? The only problem with this would be staying power - the mage leaves the fade, but the demon/spirit remains amongst mortals. Hmm...maybe *that* causes a thinning of the veil?

Yes, that would be interesting, now, wouldn't it? The shifting of the balance causing the thinning of the Veil. What if it is not necessarily the case of your previous paragraph, but that if something upsets this balance, the Veil thins. So all those jolly demons waltzing across may actually be thinning the Veil more and more. It is an interesting thought on your part, certainly!

I don't have any proof of matter (like lyrium) entering the mortal realm, or matter from the mortal realm entering the fade. Just more hazy speculation on my part.

Let's not worry about proof. Let's see if it fits/contradicts anything we observe.

Lyrium powering the veil...possibly. But in what manner? There doesn't seem to be any conscious factory work being done.

I was actually thinking of something else when I wrote this. It is generally assumed that using a lot of blood magic thins the Veil, somehow. But what if that is not really true, or only partly true. What if using up all that lyrium causes the "power that sustains the Veil" to reduce more and more. What if Tevinter magisters used up nearly 1/3rd of the lyrium in all of Thedas just to tear through the Veil, just knowing this fact?

If this is the case, it would proably explain the gradual progression of things. The Veil being very strong (full potential) at the start of events on Thedas. Eventually someone "discovers" something about lyrium that causes magic to happen, and goes ahead and discovers how to mine it (probably the dwarves). The more one uses lyrium, the thinner the Veil gets.

It is a wild theory to be sure, but I was just wondering why all that lyrium, if the Maker's (or whoever's) plan was to keep the two worlds separate. This seemed like a plausible explanation.

The fueling would come just from mages doing their thing day after day, so then it almost has an organic operative quality. Like an oxygen to CO2 relationship between people and plants. When magic is being used,
the veil maintains, but when magic is not used or weak, the veil shifts?I wonder.

My theory is just the reverse of that. Don't do any magic - the Veil is rock solid. Do any kind of magic, the Veil thins.

Do note though. This doesn't explain why blood magic might be causing tears in the Veil - in great amounts, too, by the looks of things. Perhaps it is the summoning of the demons that might be causing this - the more likely that seems to happen with the use of blood magic.

Another thought just occurred, though unrelated to what we're discussing. Why do demons know about blood magic? I mean creatures without blood seem to have the deepest understanding of blood magic somehow. Seems rather odd to me. We can speculate - how did blood magic originate?

EDIT: Gah! This editor cannot understand formatting information cut/copied from itself.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 09 août 2011 - 03:17 .

[esper]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Having a sort of balance system in place would be interesting - a point for point of what enters the fade must then push something into the mortal realm and vice versa. (If this is indeed what you mean - I may have muddled it horribly.)

Yep, this is what I meant.

Looking at demons and spirits and such - their presence is often explained away by the Veil being weak, so they slip through the cracks, in essence. But what if for every mage walking the fade or every dreamer taking a midnight romp, a spirit/demon gets to dwell in the mortal world? The only problem with this would be staying power - the mage leaves the fade, but the demon/spirit remains amongst mortals. Hmm...maybe *that* causes a thinning of the veil?

Yes, that would be interesting, now, wouldn't it? The shifting of the balance causing the thinning of the Veil. What if it is not necessarily the case of your previous paragraph, but that if something upsets this balance, the Veil thins. So all those jolly demons waltzing across may actually be thinning the Veil more and more. It is an interesting thought on your part, certainly!

I don't have any proof of matter (like lyrium) entering the mortal realm, or matter from the mortal realm entering the fade. Just more hazy speculation on my part.

Let's not worry about proof. Let's see if it fits/contradicts anything we observe.

Lyrium powering the veil...possibly. But in what manner? There doesn't seem to be any conscious factory work being done.

I was actually thinking of something else when I wrote this. It is generally assumed that using a lot of blood magic thins the Veil, somehow. But what if that is not really true, or only partly true. What if using up all that lyrium causes the "power that sustains the Veil" to reduce more and more. What if Tevinter magisters used up nearly 1/3rd of the lyrium in all of Thedas just to tear through the Veil, just knowing this fact?

If this is the case, it would proably explain the gradual progression of things. The Veil being very strong (full potential) at the start of events on Thedas. Eventually someone "discovers" something about lyrium that causes magic to happen, and goes ahead and discovers how to mine it (probably the dwarves). The more one uses lyrium, the thinner the Veil gets.

It is a wild theory to be sure, but I was just wondering why all that lyrium, if the Maker's (or whoever's) plan was to keep the two worlds separate. This seemed like a plausible explanation.

The fueling would come just from mages doing their thing day after day, so then it almost has an organic operative quality. Like an oxygen to CO2 relationship between people and plants. When magic is being used,
the veil maintains, but when magic is not used or weak, the veil shifts?I wonder.

My theory is just the reverse of that. Don't do any magic - the Veil is rock solid. Do any kind of magic, the Veil thins.

Do note though. This doesn't explain why blood magic might be causing tears in the Veil - in great amounts, too, by the looks of things. Perhaps it is the summoning of the demons that might be causing this - the more likely that seems to happen with the use of blood magic.

Another thought just occurred, though unrelated to what we're discussing. Why do demons know about blood magic? I mean creatures without blood seem to have the deepest understanding of blood magic somehow. Seems rather odd to me. We can speculate - how did blood magic originate?

EDIT: Gah! This editor cannot understand formatting information cut/copied from itself.

This was very interesting to read. My theory is that with every death the veil thins and every birth thickens the veil. So in normal places were the birth and death rate is normal the veil stays in balance, but in all the places we have been to with a thin veil or rifts in the veil something horrible with a lot of death happened so in those places the death rate is much higher in the birth rate the veil thinnes. That would also explain how blood magic destroy the veil since draining people from blood is draining them for life,

[whykikyouwhy]

There is madness down this road, surely. I have more musings. :/

I wonder if the key to any theory regarding balance is Fen'Harel - the one known entity who could walk amongst the creators (did I get that right) and the Forgotten Ones. Hmmm.

What if lyrium was always intended as a means to access the fade and cross thru the veil - that it was melded with the earth as a resource for this function, and the first people(s) could use it at will for that purpose. (For the sake of this tangent, I am leaving the Maker out of equation - I'm not sold on his role in all of this, though he is a convenient entity to attribute it all to, since there is chantry lore.)

So at some point, the fade splits from the mortal realm, or at least becomes harder to reach/access. Lyrium could still be used but the union of mortals to magic has changed. Blood magic is introduced and can mimic the functionality of lyrium. But it was never the *intended* manner to cross the veil. It's like a key with a different groove - it fits the tumbler but causes damage to it. It forces the door open, so to speak.

As for blood magic and its origins...I don't know. Maybe it first came about when the relationship between mortals and the fade was stronger. Maybe demons know about it because they were part and party to its use or witnesses in close proximity. They saw the first use, they felt the veil shift in a unique way, they grew uneasy or maybe excited at the prospect of uncontrolled access to the mortal realm.

A long shot, certainly.

[MichaelFinnegan]

esper wrote...

This was very interesting to read. My theory is that with every death the veil thins and every birth thickens the veil. So in normal places were the birth and death rate is normal the veil stays in balance, but in all the places we have been to with a thin veil or rifts in the veil something horrible with a lot of death happened so in those places the death rate is much higher in the birth rate the veil thinnes.

That is quite interesting. Let me ask you. Do you think a horrible death could involve a person's spirit ending up in the Fade?

I have my doubts about your theory, though. If the strength of the Veil at a place was indeed determined by the balance between the number of deaths and births, then it would stand to reason that at every place of conflict, whether or not it involved use of magic, the Veil should be necessarily thin, at least comparatively. And at places involving wholesale war, like the Fifth Blight, the final battle of which was at Denerim, the Veil must have been very thin, again comparatively. A thin Veil would have involved demons being able to get through. But I don't think I heard about any such thing in DA2, at least not that I know of.

That would also explain how blood magic destroy the veil since draining people from blood is draining them for life,

Draining of blood could be a major factor, though, whether it involved a death or not, I'd imagine. That is because, like lyrium, blood makes magic spells more powerful, considerably more so, depending on the skill of the one weilding those spells. And, as I noted in my previous post, I think use of any kind of magic (let me qualify that now with use of lyrium/blood - now I'm not sure whether that also includes "normal" magic, which uses neither substance for power, and which did not figure in my original point about the use of lyrium) might thin the Veil, to a lesser or greater degree.

And, as as a counter to what I said above, as we see at Soldier's Peak, the Veil was very much thin or even torn. That mainly involved the summoning of demons - if memory serves me right. And this might have something to do with whykikyouwhy's notion of thinning of the Veil, because the demons crossed over and the balance between the two worlds was affected.

So, there are apparently two possibilities that seem likely to me. (Of course there are perhaps several others that I'm not aware of.)

EDIT: A missed quote added.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 09 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

There is madness down this road, surely. I have more musings. :/

I wonder if the key to any theory regarding balance is Fen'Harel - the one known entity who could walk amongst the creators (did I get that right) and the Forgotten Ones. Hmmm.

What if lyrium was always intended as a means to access the fade and cross thru the veil - that it was melded with the earth as a resource for this function, and the first people(s) could use it at will for that purpose. (For the sake of this tangent, I am leaving the Maker out of equation - I'm not sold on his role in all of this, though he is a convenient entity to attribute it all to, since there is chantry lore.)

My question though is, will we ever know if Fen'Harel is/was real? Will we ever see him/her? My gut feeling is that we won't. Neither humanity's Maker, nor the deities of the elven lore. Every race has its Maker; as an explanation to how things began, how major events happened, etc. These will  perhaps remain a mystery, forever. My personal take on it, though.

So at some point, the fade splits from the mortal realm, or at least becomes harder to reach/access. Lyrium could still be used but the union of mortals to magic has changed. Blood magic is introduced and can mimic the functionality of lyrium. But it was never the *intended* manner to cross the veil. It's like a key with a different groove - it fits the tumbler but causes damage to it. It forces the door open, so to speak.

Yes, I won't deny the possibility. But, in that case, why make lyrium dangerous to mine? Why only by the dwarves of the underground, who are cut off from the Fade? And let's not forget raw lyrium drives people strongly connected with the Fade mad, it disfigures them, it makes them hardly human.

The only reason it seems that its use, and therefore the effects of it that we can see, is limited is because of the Chantry - the Chantry controls majority of the flow of lyrium on the surface, and dwarves anyway don't use it. We've not seen the use of lyrium on the scale that blood magic is used.

I'm merely challenging the somewhat popular notion that blood magic is the culprit, that it is somehow a "blasphemy" on the sanctity of magic. Lyrium meanwhile gets overlooked.

In any case, I think the Veil was never intended to be crossed, either consciously or physically. At least not with the use of lyrium or blood magic.

As for blood magic and its origins...I don't know. Maybe it first came about when the relationship between mortals and the fade was stronger. Maybe demons know about it because they were part and party to its use or witnesses in close proximity. They saw the first use, they felt the veil shift in a unique way, they grew uneasy or maybe excited at the prospect of uncontrolled access to the mortal realm.

I somewhat tend to think of blood magic as the counterpart of Fade magic (lyrium magic perhaps). As the Chantry thinks of lyrium as the "Waters of the Fade," so perhaps blood is the "Waters of the mortal realm." And just as mortals seem to know of the use of the Fade and lyrium for magic, so too could demons know of the use of blood for magic. And how do we interpret magic and demons? Well, the "flesh" is one manner in which they can enter and know about the mortal realm. Just as mortals can mortals can use lyrium and enter the Fade, so too could the creatures of the Fade enter the "flesh" of mortals to enter the mortal realm.

I know that seems a bit vague, and probably even bad as far as reasonings go. For it doen't explain how the mortals can use both forms of magic. But I suppose I was thinking more about the knowing of blood magic by the demons.

[whykikyouwhy]

I want to touch upon a few points, but I probably won't be able to give this a proper and thorough response until later.

Re: gods and their actuality - you're probably right, though I'd like to think we'll be given some clue to make the case for their existence a bit stronger.

Re: lyrium mining -If not the dwarves, then who? Perhaps the dwarves were the intended and designated keepers of lyrium - the true children of the stone who have mastery over all things within the earth. That doesn't explain how, but then why are elves endowed with certain gifts, and what trick of DNA makes a mage a mage? So the first dwarves were put upon the world as guardians after a fashion, forever disconnected from the fade so as to be solidly of the earth and therefore able to handle something that while physical, almost exists within the abstract. That might be reaching though...

Re: demons and blood magic - I believe Dumat is attributed to bringing blood magic to the world, to teaching the tevinters how to tap into it. Perhaps he was attempting to awaken potential. I think you may be onto something with your "waters" theory though - I just need to let it settle a bit.

I find that I keep getting hung up on dumat's moniker of "god of silence" - that is has deeper a implication than just the battle of the silent fields. By teaching blood magic was he hoping to give a counter, a silencer, to the song of lyrium? I don't think blood magic is the culprit of the taint, no...but what role did it play in these early days? Maybe to open the threshold to the city, or something more?

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I want to touch upon a few points, but I probably won't be able to give this a proper and thorough response until later.

I shall wait for it, then.

Re: gods and their actuality - you're probably right, though I'd like to think we'll be given some clue to make the case for their existence a bit stronger.

Remember, what I said was based on my own worldview. I might be mistaken. In the end it might have been Fen'Harel all along.

Re: lyrium mining -If not the dwarves, then who? Perhaps the dwarves were the intended and designated keepers of lyrium - the true children of the stone who have mastery over all things within the earth. That doesn't explain how, but then why are elves endowed with certain gifts, and what trick of DNA makes a mage a mage? So the first dwarves were put upon the world as guardians after a fashion, forever disconnected from the fade so as to be solidly of the earth and therefore able to handle something that while physical, almost exists within the abstract. That might be reaching though...

Quite possible. Dwarves could be so by "design." Although, Primeval Thaig seemed to add a whole new dimension to our perception of ancient dwarves. And I believe they were at some point cut off from the Fade. I guess, we'll just have to wait and see on this one, if we get to know at all.

Re: demons and blood magic - I believe Dumat is attributed to bringing blood magic to the world, to teaching the tevinters how to tap into it. Perhaps he was attempting to awaken potential. I think you may be onto something with your "waters" theory though - I just need to let it settle a bit.

Magisters received knowledge about blood magic from Dumat or elves. I don't know where I read that, but I'll try to find the source.

I find that I keep getting hung up on dumat's moniker of "god of silence" - that is has deeper a implication than just the battle of the silent fields. By teaching blood magic was he hoping to give a counter, a silencer, to the song of lyrium? I don't think blood magic is the culprit of the taint, no...but what role did it play in these early days? Maybe to open the threshold to the city, or something more?

If we resort to Brother Genitivi regarding the matter: "Dumat was the most powerful of the Old Gods, known as the Dragon of Silence for the vows of silence undertaken by his acolytes."

Although, why they took vows of silence is anybody's guess. God, I hope we get a game in Tevinter someday. I'm not sure Genitivi's had any access to their library.

In any case, it must have been the Tevinter devotees who gave these gods their names. Who knows for what reason. I certainly don't see any pattern: God of Silence, Chaos, Fire, Slaves, Beauty, Mystery, and Night.

I find it a bit odd that they had a God of Slaves. I wonder what that god was whispering to them.

EDIT: Adding a quote.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 09 août 2011 - 07:33 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I may have lost whatever possibly-pithy train of thought I had earlier, so forgive me if this doesn't make the most sense. But at this point, with so much speculation, I'm surprised I can still tie my own shoes.

I suspect that we'll get a bigger clue regarding the gods in the games to come, which is rather disappointing and maddening - the having to wait. But the gods are too integral for them to be cast aside to just the random codex entry or decrepit shrine. Now, how that clue manifests itself, I don't know. Could be something with Flemeth, could be something with the OGB. So many possibilities. I still think that the Maker is an older (if not "old") god repackaged - but that what the Chantry relates as "of or by" the Maker is really a lot of fluff, and the true actions of the old-entity-turned-Maker will wind up being something different. Well...this is what I hope.

The dwarves are yet another enigma - we know just enough to be left with even more questions. Thank you Primeval Thaig. I think we can safely (I use that word lightly) say that the idol may not be of dwarven design, or at the very least, does not depict dwarves. The figures are lean, almost emaciated. They seem to represent humans or elves. So does the idol perhaps show some superior entities that dictated the mining of lyrium? Was there some type of hierarchy of man to dwarf, or vice versa? Maybe the idol depicts what happens to man when lyrium is ingested/absorbed/etc. I hesitate to bring the idol back into this but it is an isidious thing. Pesky.

This wiki entry talks about blood magic coming from Dumat and the elves. The vital bit:

"Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas. According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of the Tevinter Imperium, by Dumat, the Old God of Silence. Historians argue on this point, suggesting the Imperium's mages may have learned it from the elves of Arlathan." 

So it's possible that both sources are correct - Archon may have learned it as did the elves, or the elves through Dumat. Again, more conjecture. But another interesting bit in the wiki is:

"The ancient magister lords ruled the Imperium in the Circles of Magi (before their modern incarnation as ), maintaining a tight hold over its people through the power to infiltrate their dreams using blood magic. Though blood magic is now banned in the Imperium, some mages are quietly acknowledged as the most proficient dream-walkers and diviners."

We could have a whole separate topic on blood magic's involvement in the City mythos alone.

I often wonder how much poetic license Genitivi took. The God of Slaves though...maybe some connection with Kirkwall? To the magisters that delighted in the suffering of their slaves? or a connection to the 1000's of slaves sacrificed to open the way into the Golden-Black City? Although that god was part of the Fourth Blight, there may be some overlap there.

But, back to Dumat and the vows of silence. That is indeed a mystery. Was it something like Fight Club? The first rule is to not talk about Dumat? The History of the Chantry states this:

" Dumat, the Old God once known as the Dragon of Silence, had risen to silence the world, and despite the frenzied pleas for help, the other Old Gods did nothing. The people of the Imperium began to question their faith, murdering priests and burning temples to punish their gods for not returning to help."

So maybe silence was literal...maybe there were some words of power that were being supressed. Either vocal or text, I'm not sure. Maybe Dumat was meant to purge magic from the world even though he supposedly brought it to man. Or, looking at the above quote, he intended to shift the words of faith - to silence the prayers of the people so that they would hold no power, and provide no power to the other gods.

My disclaimer is that this may all be from left field.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I may have lost whatever possibly-pithy train of thought I had earlier, so forgive me if this doesn't make the most sense. But at this point, with so much speculation, I'm surprised I can still tie my own shoes.

It happens. For instance, what were we discussing about just one or two posts back? The purpose of all that lyrium? What happened to it? The train of thought was for the "waters" theory, I think.  :happy:

I suspect that we'll get a bigger clue regarding the gods in the games to come, which is rather disappointing and maddening - the having to wait. But the gods are too integral for them to be cast aside to just the random codex entry or decrepit shrine. Now, how that clue manifests itself, I don't know. Could be something with Flemeth, could be something with the OGB. So many possibilities. I still think that the Maker is an older (if not "old") god repackaged - but that what the Chantry relates as "of or by" the Maker is really a lot of fluff, and the true actions of the old-entity-turned-Maker will wind up being something different. Well...this is what I hope.

Somehow I got an impression that BioWare was trying to mimic the complexity we encounter in real life in DA. DA presents such an opportunity because the franchise is supposedly open-ended. Assuming that as being the case, I further assumed that we'd not see any deities for real. I could be wrong, though. Have been many times before.

I think this whole thing about Old Gods might be different though, different than say the Maker or the elven gods, the quality of which being the ability to create - life, worlds, and so on. Nothing such has been attributed to the Old Gods as such. All that we know of is that they taught things like magic to the magisters of old, promised them great power of some sort. Things very much real within the context of what we know of and experience first-hand in DA games.

The dwarves are yet another enigma - we know just enough to be left with even more questions. Thank you Primeval Thaig. I think we can safely (I use that word lightly) say that the idol may not be of dwarven design, or at the very least, does not depict dwarves. The figures are lean, almost emaciated. They seem to represent humans or elves. So does the idol perhaps show some superior entities that dictated the mining of lyrium? Was there some type of hierarchy of man to dwarf, or vice versa? Maybe the idol depicts what happens to man when lyrium is ingested/absorbed/etc. I hesitate to bring the idol back into this but it is an isidious thing. Pesky.

Ah, the lyrium idol. Where would we be now without it? Wait a minute, where would we be really if it didn't exist? Thinking more on that, I have no sense of direction where these games are taking me. Initially I thought, well, the blight, the taint. We'd be hunting for sources of that. Now we're told (I heard this somewhere) that there won't be any more blights - so forget about the last two ever happening. Are we going to stop them from happening? Who knows? Are we going to discover the source of the taint? Again, who knows? DA2 took us in a whole new direction, showing us two different conflicts on the horizon - one with the qunari and one between mages and templars.

And then this mysterious Primeval Thaig and something sinister within it (I'm looking at you - you pesky little... idol!).

Now we've seen one country (Ferelden), various parts of it like Amaranthine, one city in the Free Marches (Kirkwall). We've seen two different events shaping each, respectively. And the possibility of going, possibly simultaneously (by which I mean in the same timeframe as the events we've just seen and experienced) to different regions of Thedas, which I suppose are many - Orlais, Antiva, Nevarra, Tevinter, etc. We're now somewhere close to the 40th year of the Dragon Age. So, we have some 60 more years to see something that is supposed to happen, or we make happen. I mean we are in the Dragon Age for a reason, no?

I mean, what is the general sense you get from this? Where do you suppose we're headed?

Anyway, back on track. You mean to ask if men ruled over dwarves or vice versa? I suppose not. Dwarves seem to be more trade-oriented, forming ties to other races to further that end. Maybe the Primeval Thaig was different - maybe that was the whole different aspect of it.

Back to the idol know. Well, one of the properties of lyrium (the normal blue kind, I suppose) is that it can store memories. So, what if, this special variety can do more. It can store a soul of a being? As the being is about to perish or something, as a last resort, it can end up as an idol or inside an idol? And another property of the lyrium being the "singing," whatever is trapped there can broadcast itself to whoever is tuned to it. More guesswork.

This wiki entry talks about blood magic coming from Dumat and the elves. The vital bit:

"Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas. According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of the Tevinter Imperium, by Dumat, the Old God of Silence. Historians argue on this point, suggesting the Imperium's mages may have learned it from the elves of Arlathan." 

So it's possible that both sources are correct - Archon may have learned it as did the elves, or the elves through Dumat.

I have a bigger question. Was magic really alien to humankind when they first arrived at Thedas? Were they not connected to the Fade at all? Is there any Fade at all for those outside Thedas? I think looking at the qunari we cannot really answer that question - because, well, even though they have mages now, and it is not clear if those mages came after the qunari stepped on Thedas soil. But if the qunari did have mages, why didn't the humans, too?

Yes. Even if those magisters learnt blood magic from elven captives, those elves must have learnt it from somewhere. More questions.

Again, more conjecture. But another interesting bit in the wiki is:

"The ancient magister lords ruled the Imperium in the Circles of Magi (before their modern incarnation as ), maintaining a tight hold over its people through the power to infiltrate their dreams using blood magic. Though blood magic is now banned in the Imperium, some mages are quietly acknowledged as the most proficient dream-walkers and diviners."

We could have a whole separate topic on blood magic's involvement in the City mythos alone.

Yes. I suppose mind control (achievable via blood magic) would be a very effective tool in gaining more power - which supposedly was what those Imperial magisters were all about. I can imagine a terrible struggle for power - fierce competition among magisters themselves to eclipse each other in attaining more and more power. At least that is how the Imperium of old is now portrayed.

But which City do you mean? Kirkwall? Minrathous?

I often wonder how much poetic license Genitivi took.

Well, I sort of like him. As a scholar, although he must be under the influence of Chantry's dogma to some degree, he seems to interpret events for what they are, not trying to fit events to favor explanations. It is still better to rely on multiple sources, but lacking that his seems like a reasonable research I can rely on, at least in some cases.

Regarding interpreting his explanation for the God of Silence, I'll get to that.

The God of Slaves though...maybe some connection with Kirkwall? To the magisters that delighted in the suffering of their slaves? or a connection to the 1000's of slaves sacrificed to open the way into the Golden-Black City? Although that god was part of the Fourth Blight, there may be some overlap there.

I was more thinking, why have a god for slaves at all? What would one pray for? A constant stream of slaves - Keep 'em coming, Lord! I don't know if that was the idea. Or perhaps it is some property of the god, like the one for Chaos, for instance. That god is perhaps named so because he revels in destroying order.

But, back to Dumat and the vows of silence. That is indeed a mystery. Was it something like Fight Club? The first rule is to not talk about Dumat? The History of the Chantry states this:

" Dumat, the Old God once known as the Dragon of Silence, had risen to silence the world, and despite the frenzied pleas for help, the other Old Gods did nothing. The people of the Imperium began to question their faith, murdering priests and burning temples to punish their gods for not returning to help."

So maybe silence was literal...maybe there were some words of power that were being supressed. Either vocal or text, I'm not sure. Maybe Dumat was meant to purge magic from the world even though he supposedly brought it to man. Or, looking at the above quote, he intended to shift the words of faith - to silence the prayers of the people so that they would hold no power, and provide no power to the other gods.

I think that depends on when these gods were named - after or before they stopped whispering to the magisters. If it was after, then what you said makes sense. But, if it was before, why would the magisters have even worshipped Dumat, if supposedly he was meant to end all magic. I am somewhat inclined to believing that the magisters gave these titles, not the Chantry folk who came later.

I think maybe those acolytes (I think by this is meant the magisters - his devotees themselves) took vows of silence because of the nature of things that Dumat whispered to them - that was supposedly not to be let out. He was after all promising them great power, so that those magisters could rule over others. Now that is not something that Dumat or even the magisters would want to be made known universally. His followers were therefore bound to vows of silence. Was Dumat plotting against the other Old Gods? I don't know.

My disclaimer is that this may all be from left field.

I'd think this thread is now somewhat free flowing; it hardly relates to what I had initially planned on discussing. So, yeah, you can say that. Not that I mind, though. :happy:

[whykikyouwhy]

So much to touch upon...but I'll limit myself to a few things that came to mind when reading your post.

I think magic may have always existed. Separating any divine power involved with creation, perhaps it was part of the cosmic dust - just another energy form like light or heat or what have you. It always was present and at some point man learned to harness it. Maybe he was taught or maybe evolution took over. Maybe something happened akin to lightning striking a tree and setting it ablaze and the mortal mind put two and two together.

I wonder if the god of slaves was less named for physical slaves and for that which enslves - the powers to coerce, make someone a thrall. Dominion over another, that sort of thing. But I fear I am reaching since I don't know enough.

I do think your theory regarding Dumat's acolytes is quite sound.

Regardin lyrium - I have long suspected that the red stuff could be embued with an essence, and that the idol either has a presence lodged within it, or carries the energies of someone/something that touched I. Maybe residue of intent. Part of the owner's power may be merged with it, or its memory - which then might mean that the things happening from exposure to or possession of the idol are echoes of the past - history repeating and stuck in a loop. Maybe replaying an event as a warning or an indication of what may occur again.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think magic may have always existed. Separating any divine power involved with creation, perhaps it was part of the cosmic dust - just another energy form like light or heat or what have you. It always was present and at some point man learned to harness it. Maybe he was taught or maybe evolution took over. Maybe something happened akin to lightning striking a tree and setting it ablaze and the mortal mind put two and two together.

I was more specifically thinking about Thedas. Some indications seem to be that man learnt magic after he got to Thedas:
1. The first "human" dreamers learnt the use of lyrium from elven captives and became the first magisters of Tevinter.
2. Man learnt blood blood magic from elves or Dumat.

On the other hand ancient elves are portrayed as having known magic forever. So I was wondering if magic was alien to continents outside Thedas at some point, and whether the Fade extends everywhere.

I wonder if the god of slaves was less named for physical slaves and for that which enslves - the powers to coerce, make someone a thrall. Dominion over another, that sort of thing. But I fear I am reaching since I don't know enough.

You're implying a god of mind control? Hmm. Could be.

Regardin lyrium - I have long suspected that the red stuff could be embued with an essence, and that the idol either has a presence lodged within it, or carries the energies of someone/something that touched I. Maybe residue of intent. Part of the owner's power may be merged with it, or its memory - which then might mean that the things happening from exposure to or possession of the idol are echoes of the past - history repeating and stuck in a loop. Maybe replaying an event as a warning or an indication of what may occur again.

Whatever that red lyrium is, I think it has properties of blue lyrium + <something>. <something> being a placeholder. I think we can probably say the following based on what we've observed:
1. Like the taint is a source of nourishment to darkspawn and sustains them, so too this red lyrium sustains profanes (dwarves, elves, men, who knows?)
2. An idol made of it seemed to have some kind of "being" trapped inside it. That being wanted to be worshipped. It wanted sacrifices and it wanted to create thralls. And it was probably operating by transmitting an enticing song of some sort. My guess is it was using the properties of this red lyrium to do all this.
3. It seems to have extraordinary powers - to animate things, etc. Although, it is not clear if it is the lyrium itself or something from the idol. My guess is again it was the lyrium at work.
4. The idol or the lyrium seems to trap whoever wields it in the form of another idol when the wielder is near death. What this means is anyone's guess.
5. And, yes, this lyrium is found deeper underground than the normal variety mined by dwarves.

Whatever that red lyrium stuff is, we can safely say it is markedly different from (or shall we say, it is much more than?) the blue variety that we were used to, till now.

Whatever you said is speculation and you could be right. Beyond that, well, it's anyone's guess.