89 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadooow]

PDK is total fail, second one is Harper scout then Assassin I guess (bioware implementatio only).

Also Shadow Dancer if the HIPS is removed (or PvM server where all monsters have True Seeing) is useless class.

As for RDD, I think they added it as the Dragon Disciple is in main DnD rules, which isnt the case of second overpowered class Pale Master. When bioware deciced in past that immunity to critical = immunity to sneak this class lost his last weakness.

[Failed.Bard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

PDK is total fail, second one is Harper scout then Assassin I guess (bioware implementatio only).

Also Shadow Dancer if the HIPS is removed (or PvM server where all monsters have True Seeing) is useless class.

As for RDD, I think they added it as the Dragon Disciple is in main DnD rules, which isnt the case of second overpowered class Pale Master. When bioware deciced in past that immunity to critical = immunity to sneak this class lost his last weakness.

  No, they got that one right, actually.  Critical hit immunity is also immunity to sneak attacks, even in PnP.  My only problem with PM in vanilla is their absolute butchering on the prerequisites, both in the spell casting level needed being wrong, and them not needing 8 cross-class ranks in Knowledge: Religion, which makes it 13th level before a pure class arcanist can take it in PnP.

  I don't really have a PrC I loathe as far as the class itself in game, but there are implimentations of them that I do, especially considering how easy it would have been to do it right.

[Xardex]

I agree with everything ShaDoOoW said and add Arcane Archer to the list of overpowered classes.

Everything I can bear but builds that include / SD 1.

[Elhanan]

I dislike PrC's and kits as a rule; would have preferred to have additional Feats and abilities with prereqs.

Have not yet played all the PrC's. Of the ones I have tried, I would say Harper Scout was the most flawed in pre-Epic play; a bit more improved in Epic when exchanging some choices for other Feats.

And I stink at playing Shifters, but I like the concept; simply wish there were more forms and archer choices.

[WhiZard]

All prestige classes have their high points.
PDK- 127DC fear spell that goes through mantles (must have negative strength modifier)
HS- 2 Great Dex feats + stacking cat's grace and eagle's splendor
SD (6-8)- Allows a shadow fiend summon which if invisible can kill high level monsters without them noticing or fighting back.
Assassin- Undispellable improved invisibility.

[Shadooow]

except those things are rather bugs or environment specifics
127dc is bug and fixed in my patch/some more experienced servers already and even if not its only 1x per day and who doesnt have immunity?
HS feats stacking could be also point as bug, but even if not, I havent seen any build where harper would be better than rogue/anything, with HS you are missing UMD and many servers out there let you cap +12ability bonus very easily (just spell gives you +5...)
shadow should appear after attack (bug in AI script) and you also presume that those high lvl monsters wont have true seeing which is especially for high lvl monsters very common boost
assassin ii can be still removed by purge/custom dispell but even if not this feature is not useable in pvm neither in high magic modules where you can craft ii wand, in pvp it might be useable but even at BoW where they have it even unpurgeable and with better conceal nobody builds with assassins as they just sucks.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 06 août 2011 - 06:25 .

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

HS feats stacking could be also point as bug, but even if not, I havent seen any build where harper would be better than rogue/anything, with HS you are missing UMD and many servers out there let you cap +12ability bonus very easily (just spell gives you +5...)

There are builds with both rogue and HS.  I made a rogue 21/HS 5/DwD 14 with epic dodge and SCV and reduction 9/-, and immunity to flanking.  But still, your comments in general point to a high magic environment.  Not all servers will aspire to at least the +5 by level 40 model.

[MrZork]

Note that the DC 127 bug for PDK fear is a broader bug that affects HS sleep and probably BG contagion, too.

I have never found much use for PDKs. They actually get some decent buffing feats, particularly for party play, but the duration limitations (since PDK can only rise to level five) detract from their usefulness. Maybe they might be a fun role-play class to spice up a horse-riding character for the 4 alignments that can take the class and who have the skill points to blow. Meh.

I will say something in regards to the oft-remarked-upon overpowered nature of RDDs. Yes, the class can be used to great advantage and RDDs get lots of feats that there would be no other way to get. But, the ability increases (which are quite nice) are of primary benefit to warrior types, but 1) to get them one has to take not just the RDD class, but either sorcerer or bard, neither of which is a strong compliment to most warrior builds (yeah, yeah, bards get tumble and UMD - fine). So, to get RDD, a base-class warrior is giving up any other third class, which is a big deal, and a prestige-class warrior is signing on for at least 5 levels of sorcerer or bard (neither of which gets any great defensive feats with those levels and both requiring starting CHA of 11+, which is a 5 ability point expense to dwarf and half-orc toons). And, 2) Though there are lots of ability increases, many of them are not ones that the character would likely choose to take. That is, yes a warrior type will benefit a lot from the STR increase and somewhat from the CON, but he wouldn't likely be taking CHA, WIS, or INT if he had his druthers.

So, I am not saying it isn't a strong PrC, because it is. I'm just saying that some of the benefits are marginal and the trade-offs are significant.

Modifié par MrZork, 06 août 2011 - 09:35 .

[Failed.Bard]

Actually, RDD just needs one bard or sorc level, and a 6 charisma half-orc is still quite capable of taking that level in NWN. The only reason you see 28/2/10 splits is so they can get the level 37 tumble dump in, and epic levels progress in AB the same regardless of class taken, so there is no downside to it.

[MrZork]

Failed.Bard wrote...

Actually, RDD just needs one bard or sorc level, and a 6 charisma half-orc is still quite capable of taking that level in NWN.

So, we agree. As I said, a base-class warrior is giving up any other third class and a prestige-class warrior is taking at least 5 levels of bard or sorcerer and needs 11+ CHA.


Lowlander, whether those trade-offs are minor or not, they are significant, which is all I said. Not having access to a third class (e.g. for evasion and uncanny dodge) is significant for many builds. Obviously, since strength builds are the commonest route for warriors, RDDs will still be popular. I haven't seen enough PvP to speak definitively, but I suspect most RDD melee monsters will still go down to IGMS-spamming mages, kiting archers, various shifter builds, etc.

Modifié par MrZork, 06 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[Shadooow]

just few facts to consider about the evasion issue (aka I agree with Lowlander)

- evasion should not work in medium/heavy armor per rules
- there is ring of improved evasion in default NWN palette and some modules can have custom items with this feat
- more than half of the evasion-able spells are fire based, in fact default NWN creatures dont cast any other element
- RDD builds are not the only one who cannot get evasion

But really I almost havent seen situation where the evasion would be sooo needed. Especially at higher lvl servers where characters have 500+hitpoints and DC stays low cos they cannot be get higher without custom content most builders dont know how to use. If we would talk about low levels there would be even more characters without evasion at all especially yours rangers .

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 07 août 2011 - 01:12 .

[WhiZard]

MrZork wrote...

Note that the DC 127 bug for PDK fear is a broader bug that affects HS sleep and probably BG contagion, too.

Slightly off,  HS sleep is limited to creatures of low HD/character level.  BG contagion uses the disease DC rather than its own.  What would benefit is SD shadow daze, but SD requires 13 Dex, so a -4 Dex or immobilization + dex buff needs to come from somewhere to pull it off.   With respect to these, the PDK exploit is a lot more accessible.

[Shadooow]

Yet Imbue arrow is affected as well.

[MrZork]

Regarding red dragon disciples: No offense, folks, but some of this comes across as disagreeing in order to disagree. In case it has slipped by, there is no argument going on here that RRDs aren't overpowered, at least not with me. I never said RDDs aren't powerful - in fact, I very clearly said that they were. I merely commented that RDDs have to fill the third class slot with a class that isn't an especially good compliment to warrior builds in order to get the feats available to RDDs. And, I didn't dispute those who argue RDDs are overpowered - people have made their opinions clear and I'm fine with it. Anyone acting as though I wrote something different... Well, have fun, but I don't see where people get any satisfaction from "winning" an argument that they weren't actually having.

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

just few facts to consider about the evasion issue (aka I agree with Lowlander)

- evasion should not work in medium/heavy armor per rules

Per PnP rules. NWN is not PnP and it has been officialy approved by WotC as is. Hence Evasion in NWN should work with all armors.

[SHOVA]

the palemaster class, in particular the summons that they can spawn are week compared to the standard gear, and class/monster abilities that the summons battle. Maybe it is just me, but I have never found that the summons are as effectual as the elementals of summon 8,9,and 10. The questionable spells per level as well tends to make the class weeker. The touch attacks are also strength based, unless of course one adds the wf feat. Don't get me wrong, I love the class, but it can be a problem to be effectual in MP, when the weeknesses are not adjusted by the builders. Course it could well be my lack of play ability.

[WebShaman]

I disagree that the Palemaster class summons are weak - obviously the Demilich has spells (all levels!). That makes it very, very, VERY powerful IMHO.

The real issue is that one cannot "control" it, as one can one own's character. If one could...

It would be a real powerhouse!

[Shadooow]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Per PnP rules. NWN is not PnP and
it has been officialy approved by WotC as is. Hence Evasion in NWN
should work with all armors.

Yes its per PnP rules and NWN is based on PnP rules of 3.0. Anyway WotC are only interested about money, and Bioware left this game (or they have been broken up or what? dont matter). I think that now what should be and shouldnt be belong to community. But right, community isnt me, neither you.

WebShaman wrote...

I disagree that the Palemaster class
summons are weak - obviously the Demilich has spells (all levels!).
That makes it very, very, VERY powerful IMHO.

The real issue is
that one cannot "control" it, as one can one own's character. If one
could...

It would be a real powerhouse!

Minimum character level for demilich is around 34 where is demilich totally ridiculous. If it would be summon from summon greater undead then ok, but need 30lvl of pale master class just to summon this thats totally silly. Even if you could controll him like familiar the tradeoff are extremely high. PM summons are weak but PM strenght is in immunities/epic spells.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 11 août 2011 - 10:30 .

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Per PnP rules. NWN is not PnP and
it has been officialy approved by WotC as is. Hence Evasion in NWN
should work with all armors.

Yes its per PnP rules and NWN is based on PnP rules of 3.0.

Bolding mine. Based on, aye. That means it's not going to be the same and unless one can prove otherwise a game feature is to be considered wad. Also, one is evidently free to try to reproduce as faithfully as possible the PnP ruleset, but it is nothing special compared to any other set of specific rules one can choose to implement. I don't see the need to keep on bringing PnP rules up when NWN is no PnP; it is only natural that it works on its own rules which may be radically different from PnP ones given the radical difference of the two games.

Anyway WotC are only interested about money, and Bioware left this game (or they have been broken up or what? dont matter).

That WotC (and Atari) screwed things up is something I can potentially agree with. But it's really another subject, ain't it?

I think that now what should be and shouldnt be belong to community. But right, community isnt me, neither you.

But it's also you and me. There's a place for each of us, but I guess we need to estabilish a common reference frame for this discussion. I'd say that vanilla NWN would be a good start, and there evasion in heavy armor is wad.

[WebShaman]

I can't believe someone is saying that the Demilich is weak.

How about Mummy Dust, or Dragon Warrior Epic spell summons? Hmmm?

I consider the Demilich to be among one of the most powerful of all the summons.

And this is definitely environmental dependent, of course.