89 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Pendragon]

And I also think that no one is gonna say that the tradeoff is not worth the trouble, considering the amazing features RDD grants. Or is someone saying that?

[WebShaman]

No-one who has any type of grasp on reason, Kail

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Anybody that says that needing to fill two class slots is not a significant tradeoff is evidently someone lacking basic comprehension skills,

Does it make you feel big and self important attacking someones comprehension skills when he is not using his native language. I'd like to see you debate him in his native language.

I'm not using my native language either so we stand on equal footing. And besides, it's about understanding concepts (basic comprehension skills) not about the subtletities of language...

Your pedantic argument that using a class slot (just for the class itself) is a significant tradeoff, is ridiculous. All classes use a class slot.

RDD uses two. It's called math. It also uses 10 lvls since not all RDD features are forefronted. And in a game with limited class slots, using a class slot is not just a tradeoff but a significant one. If that's beyond your (self)limited reasoning ability, then fine. I figured out the extent of your applied intellect a long time ago. Oh, and it's not just my pedantic argument, there's others agreeing with it... with you there's only ShaDoOow agreeing, which says a lot...

Now the significance of the second qualiying class slot does merit discussion.  But it isn't like this slot is blown, you still get a class, you only get less choice of which one, but  you have the choice of Bard, which has incredible synergy for a Fighter/RDD Build.

In the end you still have 3 classes, you also have three classes that have great synergy, thust the tradeoffs of taking RDD are insignificant, when compared with not taking RDD. 

The significance of a tradeoff is balanced by what you get from. From the size of the reward, the significance of tradeoffs to take RDD are minimimal.

Blah-blah-blah

Now there is a tradeoff and it's not imaginary anymore for you too! Congrats for the consistency first of all!

Is there a tradeoff for the RDD character? Yes
Is it of an absolute significant nature? Yes (two class slots, 11+ levels ina 3 class/40 lvls max environment plus potential alignment restrictions issues, starting ability allotment,  etc.)
Is it worth the tradeoff in some specific builds? Yes
Is it not worth the tradeoff in some specific builds? Yes

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 15 août 2011 - 07:07 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

I'm not using my native language either so we stand on equal footing. And besides, it's about understanding concepts (basic comprehension skills) not about the subtletities of language...

This is quite obviously untrue, he has fluency issue that are apparent, you do not, and you are attacking someone less fluent, at the language in use, over his comprehension skills. That is low.

Low is only your intellectual level ,dude. I'm not attacking anyone on the language, but again how can I expect you to understand something that complex?

Now there is a tradeoff and it's not imaginary anymore for you too! Congrats for the consistency first of all!

The only part I called imaginary was in respect to those making reference to comparision to the non-exsistent construct of a RDD that has no pre-requisites.  Such a thing does not actually exist, it is not a real tradeoff in the game.

So there is a tradeoff to get the equivalent of 16 epic feats plus immunities which consist in 2 class slots and 11+ class levels plus side stuff like potential alignment conflicts, etc. That's real and significant. And worth the trouble in certain builds, not in others and so and so in others still.

[SHOVA]

Just to point out, depending on the mod, everyones opinion could be true. Kail I tried to run a PM build that was not a caster, and the mod, made it pretty week. I did a 3 sorc, 15 cleric, 12 pm, and made it a str build. Sad to say it just did not do that well with the PM abilities in combat. Web, I do not understand how you can get the demi-lich summon, when the game requires you to have so many core class levels before you can take epic PM. Is there some override your using to unlock it?

[Kail Pendragon]

SHOVA wrote...

Just to point out, depending on the mod, everyones opinion could be true

Well said. Generally I tend to base myself on a mid magic environment which is what NWN should be "balanced" around (ok, stop laughing up there in the gallery).

Kail I tried to run a PM build that was not a caster, and the mod, made it pretty week. I did a 3 sorc, 15 cleric, 12 pm, and made it a str build. Sad to say it just did not do that well with the PM abilities in combat. Web, I do not understand how you can get the demi-lich summon, when the game requires you to have so many core class levels before you can take epic PM. Is there some override your using to unlock it?

I was addressing PM as a useful PrC without having to go too deep in it; basically PM is good for crit immunity and stuff by getting 10 lvls in it (which is something feasible for both combat and caster builds) or to get, in addition to that, epic spells without druid/cleric/wiz/sorc by going PM 16ish. Anything beyond that gets diminishing returns, especially in vanilla NWN where PM grants no caster level. Personally, I find a PM 30 build to be a weak one (although one evidently can manage to have fun with it), but that is not enough to turn PM into a weak PrC. Now, PDK, that is a weak PrC (even though one can pull a trick or two out of it) IMO.

[WebShaman]

I don't normally play PMs, SHOVA. I dislike how NWN handles party members, tbh. And that includes things like summons. Thankfully, one can possess their Familiar as a Wizard. Would be AWESOME if one could do the same with the Palemaster summons...but I digress. Would be even better if one could also "pick and choose" the spells for the lesser Demilich, wouldn't it?

Is it possible to get Epic PM? I am pretty sure it is possible. I am not sure on the exact requirements, however.

Of course, one could "unlock" it...not that I have done so.

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander wrote...

I'm not using my native language either so we stand on equal footing. And besides, it's about understanding concepts (basic comprehension skills) not about the subtletities of language...

This is quite obviously untrue, he has fluency issue that are apparent, you do not, and you are attacking someone less fluent, at the language in use, over his comprehension skills. That is low.

I wonder how Shado0ow feels about you describing his language use that way? You are after all claiming that he has expressed himself badly and yet still assuming he agrees with you. How can you know he agrees with you if you have such a low opinion of his language use? IMO Shado0ow does a fine job of expressing himself most times. Certainly, when challenged he does not (usually? ever? I myself have never seen it anyway)  say "it was a language mistake", he sticks to his opinion. (This, incidentally, makes him a lot more consistent in his arguments than you are. You just change your position and pretend it was that all along with no admission of the point of discussion.)

This, to me, looks like you using Shado0ow's non-perfect grammar to attack Kail.  I am also not originally an English speaker, tho it is my best language these days. But as you can see from my posts and as my friends would tell you, I still make mistakes, and I am a qualified English for Speakers of Other Languages teacher. If you didn't know, ALL native speakers OFTEN make mistakes in expression as well. The simple fact is, grammar and other language mistakes or errors do not always impede expression, understanding or communication.

Meaning is a negotiation between the one expressing and the one listening.

The only way to have a reasoned forum discussion is to 'read charitably'. Try to find the best interpretation of what the poster is saying. Constantly inventing strawman positions for other posters so you can argue against them, whether they are native speakers or not shows exaclty your position on language use and comprehension.

Ultimately, the fact you use another's language ability in an attempt to score points in your own forum argument speaks volumes about you.


..................................

On PM's ...

In the module I and friends are building, we changed PM summons to act like the druid high lvl summons, so once the summon you are entitled to is killed, then the next tier down is automatically summoned (for 4 tiers) , mostly to make it a viable summoner class for casters who specialise in PM. Otherwise PM is best used for STR based melee builds imho.

As advertised and implemented, PMs are certainly not a strong prestige class for a caster.

[Kail Pendragon]

Shia Luck wrote...
Otherwise PM is best used for STR based melee builds imho.

My dear, I will bring up, in an attempt to sway your opinion two builds: Rogue 24/Bard 6/PM 10 Dex based halfling with ED and SCV, dual wielding capabilities included and its "cousin" Rogue 20/Bard 4/PM 16 with ED but no SCV but getting epic spells. There's also that Wiz 26/FTR 4/PM 10 EDR III reciprocal damage shield build by the Dwarflord which works out pretty well

[Shia Luck]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...
Otherwise PM is best used for STR based melee builds imho.

My dear, I will bring up, in an attempt to sway your opinion two builds: Rogue 24/Bard 6/PM 10 Dex based halfling with ED and SCV, dual wielding capabilities included and its "cousin" Rogue 20/Bard 4/PM 16 with ED but no SCV but getting epic spells. There's also that Wiz 26/FTR 4/PM 10 EDR III reciprocal damage shield build by the Dwarflord which works out pretty well

1: ED, SCV and crit immunity?  *grin* .. my playstyle is usually to look after defense before anything else but wow! In epic lvls s/he must be unkillable!

2: And epic mage armour on a rogue in the right (limited equipment) environment would be amazing, yes. 

3: (personally I hate reciprocal damage builds, tho I dont have any good argument against their effectiveness) .. I'll just *pout* at that one *grin*

Ok, Soooooooo PM brings more to an STR build than any other a dex?  Can I get away with that? *cheeky grin*

....

WOW that first one really has me thinking now seeing as I usually play dex if not a caster type.

EDIT: and that Dwarflord?  Grrrrrrr far too good a builder for my own good. *cheeky grin* .... I spent an eternity making a (iirc) ftr/bard/pm for a friend only to look it up later on ECB and found that he had a one or two level split difference to mine and his was better! *pout* ..  A wonderful learning experience *grin*

(desperatly hoping I am crediting the right builder! i want the old forums back! Whaaaaaaaa! (  )

Modifié par Shia Luck, 15 août 2011 - 11:43 .

[Krazy Solo]

I can definately say PaleMaster fails at being what it should be. No disrespect to those who like to use It for defense. I see a Pale Master being the tier below Lichdom. If you can call it that. Meaning I would have loved to see the Pale Master given a bonus to caster lvls 1/2 per lvl. Just like the bonus spell slots. This would have made going any Arcane class alot better Multiclassing.

[Shadooow]

Krazy Solo wrote...

I can definately say PaleMaster fails at being what it should be. No disrespect to those who like to use It for defense. I see a Pale Master being the tier below Lichdom. If you can call it that. Meaning I would have loved to see the Pale Master given a bonus to caster lvls 1/2 per lvl. Just like the bonus spell slots. This would have made going any Arcane class alot better Multiclassing.

But they can, I am able to do that and actually I did it in my module for friends. But you probably wont see this at vault as instead of support, some peoples who cant do what I can and who only have big mouth  critique me, voting 1 without any comment and insulting me. Now I totally understand why Ben Harrison left this community and not just him.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 août 2011 - 05:51 .

[WebShaman]

Well, there is a fix for the PM casterlevel problem. It looks like it is an "oversight" by Bioware, anyway, forgetting to do so.

[Kail Pendragon]

Here a "fix" for PM caster levels has been available for a while.

Here there are some modification to BW PM including the above mentioned script, to bring it more in line with PnP.

Here we have a revised PnP like PM touch attack.

Here instead there's an interesting script for spawning undead which is also of interest to PM characters.

I'd say there's indeed stuff on the vault to "fix" the PM PrC.

[Krazy Solo]

Don't get me wrong Mods and stuff are fine if you enjoy them. I'm just not a third party person. I learned my lesson long time ago not to use Mods for games I enjoy. Not only you run the risk of breaking the game you run the risk of corrupting files that cannot be fixed. Just a personal preference. After all If it wasn't implimented then I'm not gonna cry over it. Just changes the concept of what a PaleMaster is in Game vs PnP.

Let me just say I didn't say PaleMaster was bad by any stretch. If I was picking a PrC as being weak I would be choosing a class that doesn't get used in all environments. That class is Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout. Both are gimped versions of PnP rules. More so for PDK. At least HS has a purpose in Epic Levels. PDK just seems to be for show has no real purpose outside of custom mods and environment with mounted options.

When it comes to PrC they all have their uses it a matter when they are being used. Some enjoy power, some love novelty, others efficiency. Topics like this only brings opinions and not facts in most cases. Unlike comparing the basic classes PrC cannot be picked until later in a game. Making them specialized options where basic classes are the foundation of the game.

[Kail Pendragon]

Krazy Solo wrote...

Don't get me wrong Mods and stuff are fine if you enjoy them. I'm just not a third party person. I learned my lesson long time ago not to use Mods for games I enjoy. Not only you run the risk of breaking the game you run the risk of corrupting files that cannot be fixed. Just a personal preference. After all If it wasn't implimented then I'm not gonna cry over it. Just changes the concept of what a PaleMaster is in Game vs PnP.

You mean you don't play SP modules either? Those are 3rd party stuff too after all.

[SHOVA]

Krazy Solo, I believe your confused to the terminology. Mod refers to module, or world the game runs. in the case of my earlier posts, I refered to the module differences making all the impact on whether a PC build was weak, or strong. In other games, (non NWN) Mod refers to files that change the core game. In NWN we call those haks, or overrides. I suggest you dl as many mods from the vault as you can, and try them. Mods are but 1 reason this game has endured as long as it has. I also humbly counter to your last, adding new Modules, or Haks, or overrides has no coruption on NWN. it is usualy removing haks or overrides from a module, that corrupts that module. The base game remains unaffected.

[Krazy Solo]

I'm not confuse what Mod means....

Mod has multiple references. Modification, Modules, Moderator, etc... It is when individuals don't know all the termonologies when confusing sets in. When I was refering to Mods I mean Modifications. I don't use fix or haks when i talk about changing the games. Unless official I don't use em.

[WebShaman]

*blinks*

Well, you are missing out on some of the best content that NWN has to offer, graphical and otherwise.

Whatever.

I personally cannot return to "vanilla" NWN - I have to have the better hands, models, colorable lips, eyes, eyebrows...improved graphics, effects, etc!

And of course, the alternative combat animations.

And on, and on, and on.

[Shia Luck]

Well, If you don;t like to use mods, then I guess you won't, but if the reason is because of them breaking things then I would like to put forth a small argument *grin* .

I mean, I agree that with many games, (Mass Effect for example) most any modding will cause issues (afaik), but NWN came with that wonderful toolset and is designed to be easily moddable. I will say that with the eception of Tony K's AI (which will only have issues with a limited number of community modules), everything in "Add-ons & Tips from the NWN Community" has been tried and tested by an awful lot of people and won;t cause any issues. I would be a lot less effective as a caster without Amytheyst Dragon's coloured spell icons and GUI, I know that much. *grin*

...but to each their own *smiling*

[Krazy Solo]

Its a personal preference. Just as it is everyone elses to use Modifications. Its not an issue for myself one way or another as I play Single Player 90% of all games I play. Exception is games that don't have single player .

[Elhanan]

Krazy Solo wrote...

I'm not confuse what Mod means....

Mod has multiple references. Modification, Modules, Moderator, etc... It is when individuals don't know all the termonologies when confusing sets in. When I was refering to Mods I mean Modifications. I don't use fix or haks when i talk about changing the games. Unless official I don't use em.

 I like the Haks, but being Techless I avoid placing anything into the Overide file, as this is often the first thing I see posted on possible problems.

My suggestion: find some Techie friends, and try a Hak or two. One of the first I noticed was simply allowing waves to break on the shoreline, but it made the opening sequence more enjoyable.

[Shadooow]

Krazy Solo wrote...

Don't get me wrong Mods and stuff are fine if you enjoy them. I'm just not a third party person. I learned my lesson long time ago not to use Mods for games I enjoy. Not only you run the risk of breaking the game you run the risk of corrupting files that cannot be fixed. Just a personal preference. After all If it wasn't implimented then I'm not gonna cry over it. Just changes the concept of what a PaleMaster is in Game vs PnP.

This was a big issue when I played Diablo. Players there considered any kind of modifications as cheating.

So on one side you like the changes we are talking here about like assassin being able to become RDD/AA and on the other side you are afraid of them as it wouldnt be "vanilla" anymore. While players from Diablo were not able to overcome this issue, more advanced communities like Jagged Allience or Gothic did and they made community patches/modifications which become the standard. But this community seems to be retrogressive the same way as Diablo one...

There are no official modifications and wont be because bioware is gone. I tried to make a community patch but support from community is very low actually. I can make soo much things but there isnt need of them or what, most just say, NWN isnt PnP so your "fixes" are not fixes, it should be the way it is. On the other hand the same peoples dream about assassin be able to become RDD. I dont get it...

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 août 2011 - 04:31 .