25 réponses à ce sujet

[ccenger]

 If there is a thread about this, I can't find it, and forgive me if this is in the wrong place because I only check the forums if I'm stuck somewhere.

Also, there are major spoilers below, so please do not read further if you have not finished DA:O, DAII, and DA:Legacy.

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SPOILERS

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I've finished the Legacy DLC a few times and decided to not side with Larius just to switch it up a bit.  When I beat Corypheus, just as in the other times I beat it, the Grey Warden I sided with talks and says they're going to go speak with the Warden Commander.  Larius says, "Thank you for my freedom."  Or something to that effect.  But Janeka said, "I feel like a whole new person."

For some reason, warning bells went off in my head the moment she said that.  They should have gone off when I heard Larius, but I guess I'm not that sensitive to possible foreshadowing.

My foreshadowing question is this:  Corypheus is one of the original darkspawn.  Majorly powerful, just like the Old Gods.  The Old Gods are all but immortal, as Riordan said, and when they are slain, they're essence is said to inhabit the nearest tainted creature.  

I can't help but wonder if my Hawke didn't actually slay Corypheus and instead he inhabited the nearest tainted creature (well, second nearest since I had Anders in my party- he's already possessed tho).

Then going to see the Warden Commander?  Could that perhaps be why the commander is missing? (assuming they didn't die in Origins)

Any thoughts would be great.  Again, forgive me if I'm posting in the wrong forum.

[whykikyouwhy]

I think you're posting this in the right place. There was another thread on this very topic, though it initially covered the possible possession of Larius only.

For the record, I'm in the group of "yes, Corypheus found a new vessel."

[Iosev]

It does seem like the ending of Legacy hints at the possibility of Larius or Janeka being possessed by Corypheus (it's that eery smile that both of them have as they're leaving that makes me think that). Corypheus does say, "If I cannot leave with you, I will leave through you!" or something to that effect.

Finally, during the conversation between Varric and Cassandra, Cassandra tells Varric that the Wardens never mentioned a Larius or Janeka (whichever warden you sided with), further hinting at the possibility that Larius or Janeka never returned to the Wardens after the events of Legacy.

Modifié par arcelonious, 04 août 2011 - 12:38 .

[whykikyouwhy]

It's possible that the new-Corypheus does return to the Wardens and is able to enact some sort of change/shift in power within the Order. There may not be anyone within the Order that can recognize the possession - Corypheus is incredibly powerful, perhaps so much so that he can escape detection in his new body.

So too, the Wardens are, by nature, a secretive lot. They may not feel compelled to confess to Cassandra the fact that a Magister infiltrated the Order, any wrongdoing on their part, or anything at all.

[Darius Vir]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So too, the Wardens are, by nature, a secretive lot. They may not feel compelled to confess to Cassandra the fact that a Magister infiltrated the Order, any wrongdoing on their part, or anything at all.

Yep.  I'd go a lot further than that, too.  They're pathological liars. 

There's something clearly up (read: WRONG) with the Grey Wardens.  I feel like there've been way too many creepy hints in both games from something not to be rotten at Weisshaupt.  

[Firefeng]

Even better is the realization that Flemeth holds the same ability to transfer from body to body, giving a delectable hint about her origin. She appears to be the only other mage that approaches Corypheus's power, that we know of. Was she also one of the original magisters, and sloughed off her darkspawn-y body by switching to a new one?

[Macropodmum]

ccenger wrote...

Then going to see the Warden Commander?  Could that perhaps be why the commander is missing? (assuming they didn't die in Origins)

Timeline wise I doubt this is a possibility, especially being that you can play Legacy anytime throughout the 3 acts, and if you had chosen Alistair to be king and your warden married him then he mentions getting back to her in Act 3, which means that at least by then the warden hadn't yet dissapeared.  I guess it might be a possibility if Cory waited that long to see the Commander, but then he could have been talking about a number of commanders and not just your warden (who if married to Alistair went back to court duties after Awakenings)

Modifié par Macropodmum, 04 août 2011 - 02:21 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Firefeng wrote...

Even better is the realization that Flemeth holds the same ability to transfer from body to body, giving a delectable hint about her origin. She appears to be the only other mage that approaches Corypheus's power, that we know of. Was she also one of the original magisters, and sloughed off her darkspawn-y body by switching to a new one?

This is an interesting theory. If this is the case though, what purpose is she trying to serve by seemingly waiting? She has painted this legend for herself amongst both humans and the elves. She has bargained and ensured her own survival (the Sundermount quest). And she has (supposedly) aided the Warden and Hawke when both were faced with impossible odds. Was all that to continue to stage some coup upon a mythical City?

(Granted, that's probably a question that will just prompt more questions, since we have so little to go on.)

[leggywillow]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Firefeng wrote...
Even better is the realization that Flemeth holds the same ability to transfer from body to body, giving a delectable hint about her origin. She appears to be the only other mage that approaches Corypheus's power, that we know of. Was she also one of the original magisters, and sloughed off her darkspawn-y body by switching to a new one?

This is an interesting theory. If this is the case though, what purpose is she trying to serve by seemingly waiting? She has painted this legend for herself amongst both humans and the elves. She has bargained and ensured her own survival (the Sundermount quest). And she has (supposedly) aided the Warden and Hawke when both were faced with impossible odds. Was all that to continue to stage some coup upon a mythical City?

(Granted, that's probably a question that will just prompt more questions, since we have so little to go on.)

Ooh, that is an interesting theory.  Larius' description of Corypheus seems to parallel Morrigan's description of Flemeth in the Witch Hunt DLC: "not a blood mage, not an abomination and not even truly human".

If that's the case, I would guess that the original magister possessed the original Flemeth, since that would jive with some of the legends about her, the way she pled to spirits for help after Conobar killed her husband or however it goes.

[Sepewrath]

I don't think Cory is a Darkspawn, because the problem with the Archdemon tactic theory is not even the Archdemon can posses a Grey Warden, both souls are destroyed when it tries it. I could imagine that he does something like Flemeth and takes a body, but he couldn't be a Darkspawn if he did that to a Grey Warden.

[Peachz]

 Hmmmm very intresting! I like the idea of Flemeth being an orginal magister, but she seems to lack the physical appearance of the taint? If anything I would say she is much closer to some sort of old god herself (like dumat only untainted ) it would make sense...seeing as how her form of choice is a dragon. Also as I side note, her original goal in origins was to get morrigan knocked up with an old god baby and then posses her. what could should possibly need an old god for? so many questions 
"perhaps I am a dragon?"

[Firefeng]

Peachz wrote...

 Hmmmm very intresting! I like the idea of Flemeth being an orginal magister, but she seems to lack the physical appearance of the taint? If anything I would say she is much closer to some sort of old god herself (like dumat only untainted ) it would make sense...seeing as how her form of choice is a dragon. Also as I side note, her original goal in origins was to get morrigan knocked up with an old god baby and then posses her. what could should possibly need an old god for? so many questions 
"perhaps I am a dragon?"

"Corypheus" appears untainted after the ol' switcheroo, too, so it would still make sense.  With Flemeth, I think it could go either way.

Another thing that's bothering me is that Dumat, presumably slain during the first blight, still appears to hold power in the DA 2 universe, via Corypheus's cries to grant him more power, and also via the shrine of dumat side quest.  Both could be explained away by different things (Cory's obviously gone a bit mad, and the shrine could just be your standard Arcane Magical Device That Spits Stuff Out When You Do Things For It), but I think it opens up interesting possibilities nonetheless.

[Macropodmum]

Flemeth has probably body hopped many times so I doubt the tainted look would even be an issue...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
This is an interesting theory. If this is the case though, what purpose is she trying to serve by seemingly waiting? She has painted this legend for herself amongst both humans and the elves. She has bargained and ensured her own survival (the Sundermount quest). And she has (supposedly) aided the Warden and Hawke when both were faced with impossible odds. Was all that to continue to stage some coup upon a mythical City?

(Granted, that's probably a question that will just prompt more questions, since we have so little to go on.)

She may be waiting for the rest of the magisters to be taken out  as they surface (hence why she assists our heroes)

[Firefeng]

Actually, upon thinking about it, Flemeth is able to possess the bodies of (presumably) non-tainted vessels whereas Cory jumps into one of two entities with the taint (not unlike an Archdemon...), oddly ignoring the superior "vessel" that just kicked the crap out of him.

They're either different or we're gonna see some retcons in the future...

Modifié par Firefeng, 04 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[Sepewrath]

I'm not buying Flemeth as a magister, the idea just doesn't sit right with me.

[HTTP 404]

I think Corypheus can only be slain by a warden much like an archdemon. Hawke is not a warden. what happens when an archdemon is slain by a non-warden? it goes to the nearest tainted being (darkspawn).  Cory has influence over all who have the taint, wardens included.  perhaps Cory can inhabit wardens when he dies.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 04 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[Sepewrath]

Even if that were the case, he would of had to jump to a Darkspawn body, these Archdemon like characters are not suppose to be able to jump into Wardens, regardless of who kills them. The Warden slaying in Archdemon, would obviously be the closest one to it, and would assure it not getting away. But I would think killing an Archdemon in the presence of a Warden would have the same effect, it jumps to the Warden and dies. So unless every Archdemon is out there, living fine, I doubt Cory is a darkspawn.

[HTTP 404]

Sepewrath wrote...

Even if that were the case, he would of had to jump to a Darkspawn body, these Archdemon like characters are not suppose to be able to jump into Wardens, regardless of who kills them. The Warden slaying in Archdemon, would obviously be the closest one to it, and would assure it not getting away. But I would think killing an Archdemon in the presence of a Warden would have the same effect, it jumps to the Warden and dies. So unless every Archdemon is out there, living fine, I doubt Cory is a darkspawn.

we really don't know...too many theory and conjecture.  I am just glad Im not the only one who thought whoever you helped sounded odd after defeating cory.  I suppose I should just leave the why and hows for the future. 

[Rifneno]

It was so obvious that the warden ally gets possessed. Not just the speech, but the journal only says he's dead "For now.", during the scene where Hawke cuts him down all he's doing is staring intently at the warden in the background, who I might add just about has a seizure when Corypheus is slain, ect.

They want it to be obvious because people hate when a dead character suddenly comes back. It's their way of telling us "he's not really dead, so don't hate us when he shows up in DA3 okay?" They did the same thing when the Warden "slew" Flemeth in DAO. Morrigan says about 5,382 times that Flemeth is probably not truly dead, the journal says the same, ect. They're just giving us fair warning because they know we hate that plot twist and often scream "retcon" if it's not heavily foreshadowed.

[whykikyouwhy]

leggywillow wrote...

Ooh, that is an interesting theory.  Larius' description of Corypheus seems to parallel Morrigan's description of Flemeth in the Witch Hunt DLC: "not a blood mage, not an abomination and not even truly human".

If that's the case, I would guess that the original magister possessed the original Flemeth, since that would jive with some of the legends about her, the way she pled to spirits for help after Conobar killed her husband or however it goes.

Quoting the above because it hits upon something I wound up mulling over. Regarding Flemeth being a Magister either originally, or being the vessel of possession from one - would this synch up with what she says to Merrill on Sundermount? After the ritual with the amulet, Merrill bows to Flemeth who says a few words including "The people bend their knee too quickly." I always took this to be somewhat respectful - a tone of chastisement toward Merrill, yes, but respect to the elves in general (maybe the Dalish, specifically). A sort of "your people need not bow, and shouldn't, to anyone."

And this is what doesn't gel for me. The Tevinter Imperium supposedly took down Arlathan. If so, and if Flemeth (or an entity within her) was a magister, that respect may not come forth. She might bear the prejudices of the Imperium.

Not to say that all magisters felt hatred/loathing/jealousy/etc toward the elves.

I'm leaning toward Flemeth being some type of deity - some ultra powerful and very ancient creature who can see the way ahead and is preparing for it. Maybe to align several heroes to her cause (which remains unknown, beyond just sheer survival). She just seems too detached to have been anything truly human, even if that human was a powerful mage.

Just my perspective. For now.

[Matriach]

I was inclined that Flemeth was some kind of higher deity that observes everything that happened in Thedas. But then again, she always has some parts in many legendary heroes in Thedas and ends up making them disappear (albeit it's not her fault).

Back to cory...well yes, I think majority of people here thinks that he possessed tainted warden nears him. I don't think this will be delved fully in the next DLC, but I think this will have its part in the next expansion like Awakening for DA2. My reason is that from how Varric narrate the story, it seems he implied that Cory never meet Hawke anymore after his supposed 'death'. My guess is that if he appears later in the future, it'll be the time where Hawke story was told not from Varric story but from Hawke itself (that is to say, this won't probably happened except in the expansion or DA3 where the story wasn't told from Varric's point of view).

[TEWR]

I wouldn't call Corypheus one of the original Darkspawn. He is one of the original Awakened Darkspawn, but that's not the same thing.

[Matriach]

Does his dialogue over black city doesn't convinced you that he's one of the original darkspawn? Can you explain what you really mean about the original Awakened Darkspawn?

[TEWR]

Avernus' notes mention a connection between the taint and the Black City, but Corypheus implies it was always black, which means it was always tainted.

An Awakened Darkspawn is just that. One that is free from the call of the Old Gods. The Disciples, The Architect, and Corypheus are Awakened Darkspawn.

Also, it doesn't make sense for him to be one of the first Darkspawn, for varying reasons:

1) he can't hear the Old Gods, so he couldn't have sought them out.
2) Dwarves encountered Genlocks long before humanity ever did, possibly before the raid on the supposed Golden City if it ever was Golden.
3) Females of each race become broodmothers through a painful process in terms of both body and spirit that involves more than just being tainted, as Hespith's poem indicates.

And I doubt that Corypheus, or any other awakened Darkspawn, could've known how to make Broodmothers. I'm willing to bet the only way mindless Darkspawn know is due to instinct.

What's also interesting is that in the battle with Meredith, during a certain cutscene you can hear the same whispering you hear in the Joining ritual at Ostagar and when you become a Reaver. Which indicates to me that the lyrium idol is connected to the Darkspawn, and as we know the Old Gods for some reason have something to do with other dragons (since you fight one in the battle of Denerim before fighting the Archdemon)

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 août 2011 - 03:27 .