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[Rifneno]

I had started this in another thread, but it was pretty off-topic for that one, and after having spent the day on this I thought it warranted its own thread.

I propose that the Primeval Thaig is part of the remains of Arlathan, which elven legends claim Tevinter made "the ground swallow whole." I know this theory has been brought up before but I've never seen much supporting it beyond "the thaig is old and weird." I did a bit of digging (no pun intended) to find supporting evidence as well as data challenging some of the counterpoints I've seen made against it being Arlathan.

- First and foremost, an item found the thaig that first got me suspicious. "Carved Ring of the Vhenadahl." Vhenadahl is the "tree of the people" that you see in alienages. Like much of elven lore, most of it is forgotten to the world and thus not available to us. All that we're told of the Vhenadahl is that it was said to be a symbol of Arlathan. At the very least, it all but assures us there were elves living in this city.

- Another item you'll find in the thaig is a pair of boots called "Ghillie Brogues." These are a real type of footware. They originated in Scotland and Ireland and made of untanned leather. Their distinguishing feature is that they have holes to drain water out of them after the wearer goes through watery terrain such as a bog. I doubt I need to tell you that there aren't many bogs several miles underground.

- Then there's the infamous lyrium idol itself. Take a good look at it, here if you wish. There are two figures, one a female standing and another of unknown gender only seen from the torso up and only from the back, with his head against her side and a large circular object behind them. The most glaring oddity of the idol is that these figures are not dwarves. There isn't enough detail to know whether they're elven or human but they are far too tall to be dwarves.  Why would the dwarves worship a deity in a human or elven form?

I think it's a good possibility the idol was made to depict an event mentioned in the codex "Elgar'nan: God of Vengeance," which I'll quote for you here:

"Long ago, when time itself was young, the only things in existence were the sun and the land. The sun, curious about the land, bowed his head close to her body, and Elgar'nan was born in the place where they touched."

Elgar'nan is the closest thing the Elven pantheon has to Zeus. In other words, that scene was the origin of their gods. An argument could certainly be made that the lyrium idol is a representation of that important moment. The woman in the picture stands for the land or Earth, the circular object behind her the sun, and the figure appearing only from the torso-up being Elgar'nan halfway through his creation. Of course, with any art it's a matter of interpretation.

- Finally, there may be a clue in the thaig's trash. In the rest of the Deep Roads trash such as "Weathered Dwarven Clan Pin" is common. In the Primeval Thaig there is none to be found. If you look into the game's data files you'll find the typical Deep Roads trash is categorized under "dwv" clearly for "dwarven." Primeval Thaig trash has a different internal label, "prf." While there are a few so-called dwarven items in the prf trash, they're all marked as "odd" or "strange" unlike dwarven items from the normal Deep Roads.

- The Profane's codex.

We who are forgotten, remember,

We clawed at the rock until our fingers bled,

We cried out for justice, but were unheard,

Our children wept in hunger,

And so we feasted upon the gods.

Here we wait, in aeons of silence.

We few, we profane.

The most interesting parallel I want to point out is to "We cried out for justice, but were unheard." Now read the codex "Arlathan: Part Two." Specifically, this line. "The elves called to their ancient gods, but there was no answer." A striking similarity, no?

There are some other ways to interpret some of this as well. "We who are forgotten" may be a reference to how the Arlathan culture was lost (forgotten) after Tevinter's attacks. God knows it's hard to meet an elf who doesn't refer to their culture as forgotten. "We clawed at rock until our fingers bled." This obviously suggests they were trapped underground. Sure, there could be a tunnel collapse that sealed in a dwarven city. But I would think dwarves would be prepared for that; they did create the Deep Roads after all. Besides, crying out for justice indicates that whatever happened was an intentional attack that trapped them underground (and at a time when even primitive explosives weren't discovered). Tevinter sinking the city would certainly qualify as that.

- This would also explain what Tevinter was doing in Kirkwall with all the blood pools for magical energy. They were gathering the ridiculous amount of magical power required to sink Arlathan. I know the response here, "they were doing that to invade the Golden city." Which brings me to counterpoints.

- Quote the Enigma of Kirkwall, "Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else?" This could be taken a few ways, but it certainly seems to imply that whatever Tevinter did in Kirkwall, it happened after they failed to capture the Golden City.

Also this entry, "Access has not been easy, and I fear my disguise will not bear great scrutiny. But I saw the records the templars say do not exist. The blood of countless slaves was spilled beneath the city in sacrifice. Whole buildings were built upon lakes of blood. The sewers have grooves where blood would flow, all leading down. The scale is hard to fathom.

A blood mage can channel great power from a simple cut. At least a thousand unfortunates died here every year for centuries. For what ungodly purpose would one need so much power?"

Compare this to the codex "The Cardinal Rules of Magic" (as well as other sources, but that was the easiest I found), "Similarly, even when you send your mind into the Fade, your body remains behind. Only once has this barrier been overcome, and reputedly the spell required two-thirds of the lyrium in the Tevinter Imperium as well as the lifeblood of several hundred slaves. The results were utterly disastrous." Several hundred slaves. Why would the Chantry lie and claim that Tevinter used several hundred slaves when they actually used perhaps a thousand times that? Unless the interpretation that they already attempted to invade the Golden City was accurate, meaning Tevinter had almost exhausted its vast lyrium reserves on something else so they needed to rely on lakes of blood for this spell.

Lastly regarding the Enigma of Kirkwall, there is this, "The magisters had hundreds of mages deep below Kirkwall. They lived and researched here, far from the scrutiny of common men.

Many ancient cities specialized in arcane research, but why did Kirkwall hide its efforts here? Why go to such great pains to keep it out of sight? Were they a cabal of renegade magisters? Or was this a special project of the archon?" Whatever they were doing here, they were hiding its preparation. Why hide their attempt to enter the Golden City? But if they were planning to destroy an enemy city, it would make perfect sense to hide their efforts lest the enemy discover their evil plans.

- "But Arlathan was located in a forest north of Antiva." There is indeed a forest there called Arlathan Forest. But I ask, is New England next to England? "Arlathan" translates into "This place I love." It's easy to see such a name being reused. In the "Arlathan: Part One" codex it states that "And at the center of the world stood the great city of Arlathan." It could mean a metaphorical center, certainly. But if we look at a map of all Thedas, you'll note that Kirkwall is not far from the center. More importantly, note the Sundermount codex. "Legend says it was the site of the final battle between the Tevinter Imperium of old and the ancient empire of elves that perished with Arlathan." If Arlathan was on the nothern coast, why did they make their final stand at a mountain hundreds of miles south, near Kirkwall? 

I rarely have much confidence in theorycrafting.  But so many things that we didn't understand make sense if this was part of Arlathan...

[Frusciante31]

Wow that is really well thought out and interesting...and although I have a limited knowledge of DA lore, I have a few questions:

1. Do the time lines match up? I mean the Primeval Thaig is OLD...do we know when Arlathan was lost or when the Magisters tried to enter the golden city?

2. I seem to recall dwarven architecture inside the Thaig (e.g. statues and what not). Were there dwarves in Arlathan, or did they come to the ruins later?

3. Your research is really good, so try to take it one step further: There seems to be a connection between the primeval thaig and the red lyrium (e.g. the idol was on a pedestal in an Important Room ™)...do you have a theory on what that connection is, or how it was formed?

overall though, very impressive!

Modifié par Frusciante31, 04 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Ginkeh]

 You`re right that New England isn`t a part of England, but the forrest isn`t named New Arlathan either. 

Very interesting and well written, and thought out post though, but I still don`t believe the Primeval Thaig is a part of Arlathan, mostly because of the geography. "Center of the world" doesnt have to mean center of Thedas.

The elven items and references in the thaig probably comes from trade and/or dwarves and elves interaction in ancient times, as we knor they did.

[Rifneno]

Frusciante31 wrote...

Wow that is really well thought out and interesting...and although I have a limited knowledge of DA lore, I have a few questions:

1. Do the time lines match up? I mean the Primeval Thaig is OLD...do we know when Arlathan was lost or when the Magisters tried to enter the golden city?

2. I seem to recall dwarven architecture inside the Thaig (e.g. statues and what not). Were there dwarves in Arlathan, or did they come to the ruins later?

3. Your research is really good, so try to take it one step further: There seems to be a connection between the primeval thaig and the red lyrium (e.g. the idol was on a pedestal in an Important Room ™)...do you have a theory on what that connection is, or how it was formed?

overall though, very impressive!

Thank ye.

1. (Legacy Spoilers BTW) Sadly, we don't have a good timeline of most of the ancient events. And the ones we do have seem unreliable. We were told in-game that the magisters invaded the Golden City around 800 TE, which began the First Blight. The Grey Wardens were founded late in that Blight, which lasted about 200 years. Those events supposedly took place 1000-1200 years before present day Thedas. But in Legacy we find out a tainted magister was imprisoned by the Wardens nearly 2,000 years ago. 800 years is... a lot of time to misplace. So the few records we do have are sometimes grossly inaccurate. But we have none on the sinking of Arlathan.

2. The statues in the Primeval Thaig itself (not the Deep Roads leading to it) were totally unlike any we've seen. I searched in vain hoping to find a link from them Elven lore, then Dwarven and Tevinter lore even if it would bomb my theory. They don't even really look like humanoid figures. I have no idea what they are. I was going to make a mention that it looked like those statues were made of the black rock common to Free Marches' surface but not the Deep Roads, however I thought "they're black too" was kind of thin evidence hehe. There is a lot of reused terrain in the Primeval Thaig that's also seen in the Deep Roads, but then again this game recycles terrain like none I've ever seen. There is a golem in there, and I have no real explanation for that. It's also interesting to note the game's internal workings sometimes refer to Profane as "rubble golems."

3. I do, but with no supporting evidence I didn't want to cloud up that post with it. You'll note that veins of red lyrium are coming through the walls of the Primeval Thaig. At first I thought perhaps lyrium was some kind of plant life, growing extremely slowly, because it was clearly there after the place was built but doesn't seem to be a decoration. After drawing the conclusion that the Thaig is Arlathan, my theory is that the way Tevinter sunk it was possessing the lyrium with blood magic, the tainted lyrium wrapping itself around Arlathan and simply dragging it underground like the tentacles of some monstrously huge demon.

Ginkeh wrote...

 You`re right that New England isn`t a part of England, but the forrest isn`t named New Arlathan either. 

I knew I should've went with the Paris, Texas/Paris, France comparison. =/

Very interesting and well written, and thought out post though, but I still don`t believe the Primeval Thaig is a part of Arlathan, mostly because of the geography. "Center of the world" doesnt have to mean center of Thedas.

And yet they're believed to have made their final stand on Sundermount, not possibly a thousand miles north where a forest we know nothing about has a similar name.

[GavrielKay]

Just another point possibly in favor of the Thaig not being of dwarven origin... doesn't Bartrand tell Hawke that it was like nothing he'd seen dwarves build before, and dwarves aren't the type to change much even over long spans of time. It could be interpreted as Bartrand not believing that it was built by dwarves.

Perhaps the idol got corrupted along with the rest of the lyrium when the city was cast down. Or some surviving elves made it as a booby trap of sorts if their conquerors ever came by.

Should dwarves have had the internal magic necessary to turn into the profane?

[Sepewrath]

I don't think you need internal magic to turn into a Profane, basically they got corrupted because the veil was broken or because of the corrupted lyrium. I don't think its Arlathan, everything cant be Arlathan lol. I think it was just another Dwarven Thaig, yeah Dwarves don't change much, but I'm sure they have changed and even if they didn't want to, the idol and or corrupted Lyrium could have drove them there.

That Profane codex, you could just as easily take as Dwarf's left behind during the first Blight. And the thing about mages being underground, they could have been talking about Darktown and all the places further down that you could get to from Darktown. There isn't much there to link that place to Arlathan.

[Tommyspa]

@OP, you may be interested in this. At least as an additive.

[Sajuro]

GavrielKay wrote...

Just another point possibly in favor of the Thaig not being of dwarven origin... doesn't Bartrand tell Hawke that it was like nothing he'd seen dwarves build before, and dwarves aren't the type to change much even over long spans of time. It could be interpreted as Bartrand not believing that it was built by dwarves.

Perhaps the idol got corrupted along with the rest of the lyrium when the city was cast down. Or some surviving elves made it as a booby trap of sorts if their conquerors ever came by.

Should dwarves have had the internal magic necessary to turn into the profane?

adding onto it that there are not statues of even ancient paragons (say the first paragon or something)

[Sajuro]

Is it just me or does the figure on the idol look like Meredith after you defeat her?

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Just another point possibly in favor of the Thaig not being of dwarven origin... doesn't Bartrand tell Hawke that it was like nothing he'd seen dwarves build before, and dwarves aren't the type to change much even over long spans of time. It could be interpreted as Bartrand not believing that it was built by dwarves.

Perhaps the idol got corrupted along with the rest of the lyrium when the city was cast down. Or some surviving elves made it as a booby trap of sorts if their conquerors ever came by.

Should dwarves have had the internal magic necessary to turn into the profane?

Ahh, I forgot about what Bartrand said. He had another gem, "We're well beneath the Deep Roads." The Primeval Thaig is not part of the Deep Roads, it's just accessible through them after who knows how long.

And yeah, Bartrand was completely confused by the place. "Nothing in this thaig makes sense!" he says. It wasn't just a neighboring civilization with slightly different ways and beliefs, it was totally different. Marking he didn't recognize, no paragon type of culture, ect. But typical Bartrand, he's not concerned about the archaeological find of the... ever, his first reaciton is "I hope they kept their valuables close!" *smack Bartrand* Shame he turned so early. Varric was always a surface dwarf, Bartrand was born and educated in Orzammar and would've been a fountain of valuable input if he wasn't a murderous greedy ****.

The magic is another good point. Rock Wraiths are capable of being possessed by a demon, dwarves aren't. At least not usually. Remember Anders' dialogue in Act II, "If he wasn't a dwarf I'd think a demon did this." The codex for the Primeval Thaig, a recounting of the scavengers that first found the thaig after the First Blight, sheds more doubt about an origin of a magicless race.

He spoke of great statues and temples--temples! He spoke of things that could have only been made of magic and of impossible ruins untouched by darkspawn. He described creatures the likes of which we've never seen.

A religion worshipping deities rather than ancestors, and evidence of magic from the inhabitants. If it was dwarves who lived there, they must've had the gift. Perhaps the most eyebrow raising point is "untouched by darkspawn." The darkspawn are actively avoiding the thaig. What. The. Hell.

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.

I don't know what "clearly of dwarven make" means. Admittedly that goes against the Arlathan theory, unless there was a connection between the two more than we know. The dwarves are good at keeping records though, at least moreso than other races. With the exception of something that embarrasses them (Dwarven noble origin). So why wouldn't they have some reliable records about their dealings with the ancient elves? Very strange indeed.

"Dressed in a manner I've never seen" and "could not identify it or the substance from which it was made" I may have an answer to. The codex for the Ancient Elven Armor in DAO (Did I mention I spent the whole damned day combing elven lore? /sigh):

"This armor was made for temple guards in a time when the Creators still spoke to the elves. The techniques of its forging, even the name of the metal it is forged from, have long since faded from memory."

Sepewrath wrote...

I don't think you need internal magic to turn into a Profane, basically they got corrupted because the veil was broken or because of the corrupted lyrium. I don't think its Arlathan, everything cant be Arlathan lol. I think it was just another Dwarven Thaig, yeah Dwarves don't change much, but I'm sure they have changed and even if they didn't want to, the idol and or corrupted Lyrium could have drove them there.

We have no idea what a Profane is. A few dwarves believe in them like humans believe in Bigfoot, and they apparently made up a backstory because they had no good theories on what they are. There's no official explanation of the Profane even amongst dwarves, a race who believes... well, Dust Town.

Everything can't be Arlathan? Why, what else is Arlathan?

That thaig is not a small change, it's almost alien to Bartrand. Bartrand trumps any of us on knowing what dwarven civilizations were like.

Tommyspa wrote...

@OP, you may be interested in this. At least as an additive.

Oh nice. Thanks much. Looks like some good reading.

Sajuro wrote...

Is it just me or does the figure on the idol look like Meredith after you defeat her?

A bit, yes. It's also wearing a cowl, and has a headband with a long point jutting from the center. The only other character I can recall with anything similar is Flemeth, but she's... let's call her unique in her own way. The thing is, Meredith had that pointed headband even before the idol was found. So, unless its creators could see thousands of years into the future and know who it'd drive mad... I can't think of any reason it would look like her. But you're right, it certainly does have some similarities. ... Eerie.

[Sepewrath]

Well when I said everything cant be Arlathan, that was a joke, since there are so many theories around her and most revolve around something being Arlathan. And if humanity saw pieces of civilization from thousands of years ago, never recorded to history, it would be completely alien to them too. It being alien to Bartrand doesn't really mean anything.

Also current knowledge may dictate that Dwarf's cant be possessed because they have no connection to the Fade or magic, but Sandal certainly pokes a few holes in theory. So whose to say there weren't mage Dwarf's when that thaig was created and they would be susceptible to demons. When it comes to the lack of Paragon statues, they simply may not have worshiped ancestors and being in all there was an idol down there that drives everyone crazy, behavior outside of the norm is to be expected. That could also explain the Darkspawn avoiding it, like the way people think animals can sense danger.

I'm not seeing the place as Arlathan, I'm seeing the place as some Dwarf's that went off the grid or at the most something Grey Warden related.

[Ginkeh]

Rifneno wrote...

Very interesting and well written, and thought out post though, but I still don`t believe the Primeval Thaig is a part of Arlathan, mostly because of the geography. "Center of the world" doesnt have to mean center of Thedas.

And yet they're believed to have made their final stand on Sundermount, not possibly a thousand miles north where a forest we know nothing about has a similar name.

They didn`t make their final stand at Arlathan, the elves first fled.

"Clans and tribes gave way to a powerful empire called Tevinter, which--and for what reason we do not know--moved to conquer Elvhenan. When they breached the great city of Arlathan, our people, fearful of disease and loss of immortality, chose to flee rather than fight."

- Codex entry: Arlathan: Part Two

[TexasToast712]

My theory is that this thaig was the dwarves very first attempts at creating golems and that Caridin didnt actually invent the anvil, he found it. I base this on the fact that the profane are spirits bound to rocks and are hence, early prototypes which is why they look like primitive golems. Just my crazy theory.

[Macropodmum]

Sajuro wrote...

Is it just me or does the figure on the idol look like Meredith after you defeat her?

Not just you, I thought so as well...

The primeval Thaig being Arlathan is an interesting theory ~ I always kind of imagined a great elven city as being more elegant and organic like Rivendell in LoTR though

Modifié par Macropodmum, 04 août 2011 - 07:41 .

[Ginkeh]

TexasToast712 wrote...

My theory is that this thaig was the dwarves very first attempts at creating golems and that Caridin didnt actually invent the anvil, he found it. I base this on the fact that the profane are spirits bound to rocks and are hence, early prototypes which is why they look like primitive golems. Just my crazy theory.

Sounds more plausible to me than it being a part of Arlathan.

I`ve always been of the impression that Dwarves was probably the first race to inhabit Thedas.
Humans came from the north about 4.000 years ago, and the Elven civilization probably started with the foundation of Arlathan about 8.500 years ago, but where they come from is unknown.

It`s my belief that the dwarves predates this in Thedas at least, and the Primeval Thaig is just an ancient thaig lost to history, probably a time before the dwarves developed a resistance to magic and that they might`ve worshipped some kind of god(s) aaaaaaages ago.

Just a theory.

[whykikyouwhy]

Rifneno wrote...

- Then there's the infamous lyrium idol itself. Take a good look at it, here if you wish. There are two figures, one a female standing and another of unknown gender only seen from the torso up and only from the back, with his head against her side and a large circular object behind them. The most glaring oddity of the idol is that these figures are not dwarves. There isn't enough detail to know whether they're elven or human but they are far too tall to be dwarves.  Why would the dwarves worship a deity in a human or elven form?

I have not had nearly enough coffee to tackle this thread properly, but something caught my eye.

With regard to the lyrium idol linked above...the positioning of the female figure reminded me of something - something like this. Now, it could be a coincidence. It could be uniformity and consistency and storytelling that bends back upon itself and a circle that is complete, so to speak. Or the idol could be foreshadowing - intentional or otherwise.

But what if, in line with foreshadowing, the idol depicts something that happened before? Some similar track to what befell Meredith? (The male figure on the idol looks like one of the slave statues in the Gallows, imo)

I know this thread isn't solely about the idol, and this theory/observation has probably been brought up by someone else before, but this stood out for me this morning, so I thought I'd address it.

Oh, and Rifneno - I was really hoping to stop thinking about idols, and thaigs, and eluvians and such, at least for a day. Thank you for pulling me back into the insanity.

[Rifneno]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well when I said everything cant be Arlathan, that was a joke, since there are so many theories around her and most revolve around something being Arlathan. And if humanity saw pieces of civilization from thousands of years ago, never recorded to history, it would be completely alien to them too. It being alien to Bartrand doesn't really mean anything.

No, very few involve Arlathan. It's been passingly mentioned as possibly the Primeval Thaig, the "Stone under Orlais" (though the lead contender for that is Kal-Sharok), and the Oil City. Pretty much everything has been suggested as all three (though the first and third more often as the Orlesian Stone is a subtle foreshadowing of something rather than an in-your-face-OMGWTF).

Yes, it does mean something. It means that whatever this thaig was, knowledge of it is long lost. Now we can assume it's something totally new, with the completely undocumented and (unless you count Sandal, whom most believe is a joke by the devs and the rest believe is Andraste or the Maker or Commander Shepard or some ****) unforeshadowed mage dwarves, or it's something that we know was lost. Occam's Razor.

So how does this magic dwarf city go unnoticed? Remember the age; that thing was around long before even the First Blight. Which means it existed when the other dwarves had their vast Deep Roads network. Why don't the dwarves or any other culture know anything about it? It's hard to get to now because of the darkspawn, but not always. If it connected via the the Deep Roads, it should've been a well known. It would be like having a turnpike in New York that goes to a civilization by the damn morlocks or something. And if it didn't connect to the Deep Roads, where did it come from? An advanced civilization didn't just materialize down there on its own.

Also current knowledge may dictate that Dwarf's cant be possessed because they have no connection to the Fade or magic, but Sandal certainly pokes a few holes in theory.

If you say so.

So whose to say there weren't mage Dwarf's when that thaig was created and they would be susceptible to demons. When it comes to the lack of Paragon statues, they simply may not have worshiped ancestors and being in all there was an idol down there that drives everyone crazy, behavior outside of the norm is to be expected. That could also explain the Darkspawn avoiding it, like the way people think animals can sense danger.

Darkspawn avoid danger? When did they start doing that? Duncan was at the Circle Tower looking for recruits because, in his own words, AE magic is great against hordes of mindless creatures.

Ginkeh wrote...

They didn`t make their final stand at Arlathan, the elves first fled.

"Clans and tribes gave way to a powerful empire called Tevinter, which--and for what reason we do not know--moved to conquer Elvhenan. When they breached the great city of Arlathan, our people, fearful of disease and loss of immortality, chose to flee rather than fight."

- Codex entry: Arlathan: Part Two

"You ask what happened to Arlathan? Sadly, we do not know. Even those of us who keep the ancient lore have no record of what truly happened. What we have are accounts of the days before the fall, and a fable of the whims of the gods."

In other words, details are sketchy. Given that it's slightly unlikely the elves abandoned Arlathan and then the Tevinter Imperium sunk an empty, conquered city just for giggles, something must be a mistake to history. I'm inclined to think it's the notion that ALL the elves fled their beloved homeland considering the rest of the evidence.

Macropodmum wrote...

Not just you, I thought so as well...

The primeval Thaig being Arlathan is an interesting theory ~ I always kind of imagined a great elven city as being more elegant and organic like Rivendell in LoTR though

Well I imagine it looked quite a bit better before an army of evil wizards used an ocean of tortured slave blood to make the ground swallow it, the desperate and terrified people still surrounded by the tainted and maddening lyrium that damned them, and the thousands of years of disrepair from being lost. ... Poor elves.

Ginkeh wrote...

I`ve always been of the impression that Dwarves was probably the first race to inhabit Thedas.

Why is that? I saw anything indicating one way or the other that it was either the dwarves or the elves. All we know is that humans and kossith came later. Tevinter and Qunari. Both from Par Vollen. Everything that sucks comes from Par Vollen for some reason.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I have not had nearly enough coffee to tackle this thread properly, but something caught my eye.

With regard to the lyrium idol linked above...the positioning of the female figure reminded me of something - something like this. Now, it could be a coincidence. It could be uniformity and consistency and storytelling that bends back upon itself and a circle that is complete, so to speak. Or the idol could be foreshadowing - intentional or otherwise.

Hmm. Interesting. It's possible they meant it as a joke for replaying, like Elthina's "balm for your soul" line or "just mix, and boom! Justice and I are separated." Or my favorite, "It's time to end this charade." I doubt it has a storyline reason though... it's just too bizarre, unless it was created by someone that could see thousands of years into the future. And even the greatest mages haven't been known to see the future. *looks back at whykikyouwhy's avatar* ... Nevermind.

Oh, and Rifneno - I was really hoping to stop thinking about idols, and thaigs, and eluvians and such, at least for a day. Thank you for pulling me back into the insanity.

You didn't mention anything about the darkspawn taint. Hey, the ancient elves used to spend centuries in the Fade during the immortal naps. Think the Golden City was actually theirs? Odd how the darkspawn are immune to death by natural causes and the elves lost that same ability.

[TEWR]

Your Majesty,

It's difficult getting a straight answer out of the scavenger. These sods get themselves so blighted they can't think straight, much less keep spit in their mouths. He says, however, that he's gone down into parts of the Deep Roads that are so old that our people forgot them long before the Blight even happened.

He spoke of great statues and temples--temples! He spoke of things that could have only been made of magic and of impossible ruins untouched by darkspawn. He described creatures the likes of which we've never seen.

None of it's possible, of course. I've conferred with the Shaper and he says the Memories date back to the founding of the first thaig--what could have come before that? Yes, we're unable to explore these depths the scavenger spoke of because of the darkspawn, but surely the Memories would speak of such places if they existed.

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.

— Excerpt from a report sealed in the Orzammar royal archives by order of King Annalar Geldinblade in 8:48 Blessed.




The codex you get regarding the Primeval Thaig. I don't think the Primeval Thaig we found is the only one, because the distance between Orzammar and Kirkwall's Primeval Thaig is too far for a dwarf, especially with Darkspawn everywhere

Also, I would think that bringing Merrill would have her remark on things seeming more elven than dwarven if this were indeed the case, since she's more familiar with things elven..


edit: I see you've already posted it Rifneno. Damn thee!!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 août 2011 - 01:16 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Rifneno X- History repeats itself, so precognitive or scrying powers aside, the idol may have been an effigy of something that happened in the past that then happened again with Meredith. The idol may be purposely crafted to depict what transpired - some type of corrupting power that requires submission of the victim then results in madness. Of course, the idol may be a prison for an entity, much like Flemeth's amulet-of-transport-to-the-mountains.

But it's all speculation - I am, after all, an old lady who talks too much. *points to avatar*

No, I hadn't mentioned the taint...here. It's tough to say what the darkspawn were oiginally - what mannerof creature they were prior to corruption. Humans become ghouls...elves become....??? Maybe darkspawn are actually corrupted beings infused/possessed by some type of spirit. It might explain their uniformity - all hurlocks look the same, all genlocks look the same (not counting alphas and the like). So we have a sort of zombie disease that produces hordes of common looking creatures, with little variation. Could be the genetics of the taint.

I'm beginning to exhaust my vocabulary of speculative segues. :/

[Matriach]

Why would a dwarf made and multiplied an idol that made them go crazy and also heard those sodding mysterious songs? Are we misguided by the assumption that it was really them that made it? I must say that after playing Legacy, I'm under impression that Tevinter mage were also related with the dwarf...so perhaps, it wasn't actually made by the dwarf but by those tevinter mages?

[whykikyouwhy]

@Matriarch - I don't think anyone is claiming that the dwarves without a doubt created the idol. I think it's probably an older culture, or perhaps the ancestors of the dwarves. As for the "why" behind its creation - maybe whatever powers are locked within it can be controlled by the right individual(s), but clearly that didn't include Bartrand or Meredith. If the wrong person uses/wields it, madness ensues.

It's quite possible it was made by the mages, but I am inclined to think it may be older than the magisters' raid upon the supposed golden city.

[Ginkeh]

Rifneno wrote...

Ginkeh wrote...

I`ve always been of the impression that Dwarves was probably the first race to inhabit Thedas.

Why is that? I saw anything indicating one way or the other that it was either the dwarves or the elves. All we know is that humans and kossith came later. Tevinter and Qunari. Both from Par Vollen. Everything that sucks comes from Par Vollen for some reason.

Well, it`s just a thery of mine, and I base it mostly on the extent of the Deep Roads network.
Expanding an empire spanning most of Thedas takes a huge amount of time when it`s done above ground, imagine the time it would take to do it while digging through solid rock. 

Other than that, it`s just a feeling, and it makes sense.
Dwarves are children of the stone, something that implies to me that they`ve been around since forever.

As I said, just a theory that makes sense to me.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The codex you get regarding the Primeval Thaig. I don't think the Primeval Thaig we found is the only one, because the distance between Orzammar and Kirkwall's Primeval Thaig is too far for a dwarf, especially with Darkspawn everywhere

Varric: Holy ****.
Hawke: Is this what you were expecting?
Bartrand: I thought... an abandoned thaig, something old, but... what is this?
Hawke: How did you even know it was here?
Bartrand: Old scavenger tales. After the Third Blight. A week below the surface, they said, but nobody believed them...

I believe the dwarf mentioned in that codex is how Bartrand knew where to look in the first place. Either that or it's another case of the exact same thing. True, the Third Blight ended in 3:25 Towers and that codex is marked 8:48 Blessed, a discrepancy of over 500 years, but I believe the latter date is in reference to when it was ordered sealed in the royal archives rather than when it happened. Which makes sense, as Bartrand grew up in Orzammar and he'd have likely been there at 8:48 Blessed to hear about the hubbub over the 500 year old records of wtf. Also, 8:48 Blessed was nowhere near a Blight, so chances are the only way anyone was getting near an extremely deep and forgotten thaig is if they had an army of machine gun wielding laser ninjas.

Also, I would think that bringing Merrill would have her remark on things seeming more elven than dwarven if this were indeed the case, since she's more familiar with things elven..

Actually I did run through the thaig again with her to see if there was any suspicious dialogue. Fenris too. But the only time she spoke up was at the hunger demon. Because demons are cute little anime things to her or something.

edit: I see you've already posted it Rifneno. Damn thee!!

I did my homework.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Rifneno X- History repeats itself, so precognitive or scrying powers aside, the idol may have been an effigy of something that happened in the past that then happened again with Meredith. The idol may be purposely crafted to depict what transpired - some type of corrupting power that requires submission of the victim then results in madness. Of course, the idol may be a prison for an entity, much like Flemeth's amulet-of-transport-to-the-mountains.

The main problem then is that very unusual headband. I can see if it was depicting a similar end in the past, but also wearing similar clothes? In fact, the only garment that can be distinguished?

Matriach wrote...

Why would a dwarf made and multiplied an idol that made them go crazy and also heard those sodding mysterious songs? Are we misguided by the assumption that it was really them that made it? I must say that after playing Legacy, I'm under impression that Tevinter mage were also related with the dwarf...so perhaps, it wasn't actually made by the dwarf but by those tevinter mages?

The Arlathan elves had many powerful blood mages themselves. It's never stated that they were blood mages, but it is stated that they summoned demons (and lots of them), and since demons can only be summoned by blood magic... well... do the math. But yeah, I agree it's a faulty assumption to think the dwarves made the idol by default. Pretty much our entire basis for thinking it's all dwarven is that it's underground.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Rifneno - well, the headband is the big tip-of the clue. Without it, we wouldn't try to connect the dots. The idol would just look like lady in a state of lament.

Seriously though, that headband/crown design may just be some motif that has transcended time. The middle pointy bit is shared with Flemeth's headband (though hers differs on the sides). It may be something entirely 'Thedan' - so too, it's a crown type thing. The basic form is the same - the variations come from station or region.

Eh, it was just a passing thought. I'll add it to my long list of weird possibilities.

[TEWR]

Varric: Holy ****.
Hawke: Is this what you were expecting?
Bartrand: I thought... an abandoned thaig, something old, but... what is this?
Hawke: How did you even know it was here?
Bartrand: Old scavenger tales. After the Third Blight. A week below the surface, they said, but nobody believed them...

I believe the dwarf mentioned in that codex is how Bartrand knew where to look in the first place. Either that or it's another case of the exact same thing. True, the Third Blight ended in 3:25 Towers and that codex is marked 8:48 Blessed, a discrepancy of over 500 years, but I believe the latter date is in reference to when it was ordered sealed in the royal archives rather than when it happened. Which makes sense, as Bartrand grew up in Orzammar and he'd have likely been there at 8:48 Blessed to hear about the hubbub over the 500 year old records of wtf. Also, 8:48 Blessed was nowhere near a Blight, so chances are the only way anyone was getting near an extremely deep and forgotten thaig is if they had an army of machine gun wielding laser ninjas.

I doubt Bartrand is 80 years old.


8:48 Blessed is 52 years before the Dragon Age, and 83 years before the expedtion.


Though this does bring up a question of mine, which may mean Bartrand is 83 years old. The Ortan records say the last known name was 400 years ago, yet Orta recognizes her great-grandmother's name. So how the hell long can a dwarf live for?

It's also addressed directly to the king who ordered it to be sealed, which means the scavenger's tale was recent.

Actually I did run through the thaig again with her to see if there was any suspicious dialogue. Fenris too. But the only time she spoke up was at the hunger demon. Because demons are cute little anime things to her or something.

Well, to be fair, she isn't wrong when she says that you can play demons instead of having them play you. I mean, look at the Imperium. They play demons like clockwork. I'm willing to bet they bet them instead of chips in poker.